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the pulse of the board - how many people want to keep marbury?
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  11:29 AM
Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.
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djsunyc
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12/20/2005  11:38 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

i have no idea if crawford can run the point for this team. he may be able to run it better than steph or he may be a disaster BUT i don't think we'll know unless we give him an extended viewing at the position. the ball does move better with him there but that could be a result of just not seeing it move that much with steph. we don't have a deron williams or shaun livingston on the bench so i understand if people don't want to move steph b/c we don't have a better point BUT i don't think we can fully assess what we have with steph running the ship.
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12/20/2005  11:43 AM
Posted by fishmike:

honestly, I'm numb to this team right now. I just dont care.. they have sucked it out of me. I just dont care what they do. If they win a couple games maybe I will give a fart. I'm still watched because I'm drawn to it like a sucker in a bad relationship. I just cant walk away, even though every logical thought tells me too.

Thank god for the Giants right now

My feelings too...
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  11:46 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

i have no idea if crawford can run the point for this team. he may be able to run it better than steph or he may be a disaster BUT i don't think we'll know unless we give him an extended viewing at the position. the ball does move better with him there but that could be a result of just not seeing it move that much with steph. we don't have a deron williams or shaun livingston on the bench so i understand if people don't want to move steph b/c we don't have a better point BUT i don't think we can fully assess what we have with steph running the ship.

Don't you think LB can see it in practice? Is it up to us to figure out whether he can run the point or is it up to LB? I'm sure if he had shown to be capable he would be doing it?
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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12/20/2005  11:54 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

i have no idea if crawford can run the point for this team. he may be able to run it better than steph or he may be a disaster BUT i don't think we'll know unless we give him an extended viewing at the position. the ball does move better with him there but that could be a result of just not seeing it move that much with steph. we don't have a deron williams or shaun livingston on the bench so i understand if people don't want to move steph b/c we don't have a better point BUT i don't think we can fully assess what we have with steph running the ship.

Don't you think LB can see it in practice? Is it up to us to figure out whether he can run the point or is it up to LB? I'm sure if he had shown to be capable he would be doing it?

yes but i think lb had to give steph every opportunity to run point while he's out there but if you noticed, craw is playing more and more point as the season has progressed. his shot attempts have gone down and now lb's using the 3 guard. we'll see how it plays out but craw is definitely getting more minutes running the team.
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  1:00 PM
LB has stated from the beginning that he would like to move Steph to the 2, but htat he didn't have a real PG that allowed him that option. As Crawford learns from LB and gets more comfortable in that role he will get more minutes. But at the moment Steph runs the offense better than craw and we are not better letting him run the point 35 mintes a night. Let's be patient and let the guy learn. despite the hate Steph is still our best PG. But it's a learning process for everyone
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SlimPack
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12/20/2005  1:10 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

LB has stated from the beginning that he would like to move Steph to the 2, but htat he didn't have a real PG that allowed him that option. As Crawford learns from LB and gets more comfortable in that role he will get more minutes. But at the moment Steph runs the offense better than craw and we are not better letting him run the point 35 mintes a night. Let's be patient and let the guy learn. despite the hate Steph is still our best PG. But it's a learning process for everyone

its just that when I watch the team it actually appears that crawford runs the point better, but the thing is brown never lets crawford play the point more than 5 minutes at time so theres really no way to tell if crawford could run it better than marbury consistently, but you do have a point that if crawford could do it larry would have noticed it already, but then again larry also up until a few games ago used to start AD, who every peice of available statistical evidence known to man says is terrible, and he only realized that david lee is a worthy of minutes last game whereas fans knew it for like a month. But there should be some logic to LBs methods.
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  1:27 PM
Again we have to do our best to seperate ourselves as a fan to ourselves as the coach:

1.) We have no idea what is going on in practice
2.) We watch games with our hearts, if we want a player like Lee to play we notice every bad thing the guy in front of him is doing and none of the good things. When our player gets in the game we see every good thing they do and not the bad
3.) Coach's don't watch games with their hearts.
4.) Coach's see things weeks before we do

It was clear from the day LB got here(based on comments he has made) that he loves David Lee and will eventually give him time. But again you have to look at things from a coach's perspective. If I have a player I love but he is learning the game I am going to force him to steal minutes away from those in front of him. I am not handing him anything. It may hurt me in the short run but the more this guy wants it, the more this guy works hard to steal it, the more it will benefit me in the future. If David Lee clearly seperates himself from the Vets he/like Channing will never leave the line-up. If he doesn't he will be back on injured reserve with a shorter leash than all the vets. But when he gets it fans like us will say LB was so stupid he should have known all along. I'm smarter than LB, I should be coach. This is about development, not about fighting for the 8th seed.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  1:32 PM
Think of it this way. With all the time David Lee has spent on the bench wondering why he isn't playing do you think there is going to be a moment where he doesn't play hard now? His whole existance is to show LB that he was wrong sitting him. That he was stupid just like the fans said. LB will be smiling everytime David does prove him wrong

There is more to coaching and development than putting your young guys in the line-up and letting them play. YOu have to push their buttons. In the last game David's were clearly pushed.

The next time Nate is back in the line-up guess what? He will be thinking about everything LB has ever taught him because he will not want to go back to sitting. It's about pushing buttons so the guys learn. AND THEY ALL NEED TO LEARN.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  1:33 PM
If you feel guys aren't listening to you, that guys aren't getting your mesages(like LB said) and you feel you have to repeat things 1000 times you have to do things to get their attention. LB is clearly doing this. Giving in and just putting guys in the line-up will not get our guys to listen.
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BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  2:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Crawford has run the offense worse than Marbs but most people don't see it.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK3C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK2C.HTM

We see that at PG JC has a net +4, +8 per48, and 66% win rate, and a net-48 PER of +15.3
We see that at PG SM has a net -112, -7.9 per48, and 33% win rate, and a net-48 PER of +3.0

Are you sure you see what you think you see?

I think as a courtesy to Steph and Isiah LB is bending over backwards to extend every opportunity for Steph to succeed. JC is more loosey goosey than Steph but he's had less time in the league, so he's less polished. But with that loosiness also comes more energy, more flow to the offense, better feeds to the interior, more fast breaks, easier buckets, better ball distribution and ball movement, etc, etc.

So the question becomes, since having Steph 'get it' as a PG is no easy feat and is taking a lot of time, coaching, and development, how much further along might we be if those same resources and court time were going to Jamal instead? I think considerably further along, and each day spent as a courtesy to Steph and Isiah is a setback to Jamal, chemistry and team unity.

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 12-20-2005 2:23 PM]
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  2:32 PM
No coach is ever going to go by 82games.com to determine his starting PG. Get out of here with that nonsense. But if you want stats I will give yo ua key one

Crawford 74 assists 49 turnovers.

I think the bias is less on my end than most. Most people want Craw to start so they are looking for any reason to have him start at the point. Personally I don't give a rats arse who starts at the point. I don't care if it's Channing Frye. If I'm LB and my offense isn't running the way I WANT IT TO under Craw then he will continue to get spot minutes, get yanked when he makes a mistake and then continue to learn from me. When he does, he will start. If he doesn't he will not. When our coach is named 82games.com I will change my opinion.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  2:33 PM
I once had a PG average 19 pts and 8 assits a game. The next year I had a guy come in and average 4 pts and 3 assists. Take a guess who my starting PG was the next year.
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Bippity10
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12/20/2005  2:34 PM
LB wants all the same things we want. And he will put them in place WHEN THE PLAYERS ARE READY in his determination.
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  2:39 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

No coach is ever going to go by 82games.com to determine his starting PG. Get out of here with that nonsense. But if you want stats I will give yo ua key one

First off that's bunk. You know very well that plenty of coaches are very interested in stats and production figures.

Second, no one said LB should rely on the figures I posted, only that the people who think JC has more potential at the position have positive production figures to back up their claims, something the Marbury supporters seem to lack.

It's only information, do what you will with it.
BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  2:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I once had a PG average 19 pts and 8 assits a game. The next year I had a guy come in and average 4 pts and 3 assists. Take a guess who my starting PG was the next year.

Since you shun statistics, based on what you've told us I haven't a clue.
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  2:44 PM
You are absolutely correct. As a fan I love statistics. As a coach they are less important. I don't need a stat page to tell me how my offense is flowing under a particular PG.

And as for shunning statistics, I noticed you made no mention of the most important PG stat: Assist to turnover ratio. For his career Craw is less than 3:1. This year he is under 2:1. If he can fix this he will get more time at the point. He already is making strides and that is why LB would like to go to a 3 guard rotation. LB is trusting him more because he is improving. But he is not going to be handed the PG position right now because Marbs is still better than him.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  2:45 PM
I know we hate Marbs and we want a new PG. But reality is Craw is not good enough yet.
I just hope that people will like me
BlueSeats
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12/20/2005  2:52 PM
Posted by Bippity10:


And as for shunning statistics, I noticed you made no mention of the most important PG stat: Assist to turnover ratio.

Not at all, I spoke directly to this above (though it was couched in the term loosey goosey):

I think as a courtesy to Steph and Isiah LB is bending over backwards to extend every opportunity for Steph to succeed. JC is more loosey goosey than Steph but he's had less time in the league, so he's less polished. But with that loosiness also comes more energy, more flow to the offense, better feeds to the interior, more fast breaks, easier buckets, better ball distribution and ball movement, etc, etc.

So the question becomes, since having Steph 'get it' as a PG is no easy feat and is taking a lot of time, coaching, and development, how much further along might we be if those same resources and court time were going to Jamal instead? I think considerably further along, and each day spent as a courtesy to Steph and Isiah is a setback to Jamal, chemistry and team unity.

I acknowledge turnovers are a flaw to JC's game, but I also acknowledge more sever flaws in Steph's game. I think it's a far more brief task to curtail JC's turnovers than to teach Steph how to see the floor, increase tempo, feed the interior, improve his attitude and demeanor, lead guys to the rim, etc, ect.
Bippity10
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12/20/2005  2:59 PM
But again you are confusing your opinion with LB's even though it's his offense and he has to watch these two guys run it every day in games AND IN PRACTICE. I've had guys whose teammates were ready to run them off the team. Yet the fans thought these same guys were the superstars that made everything go smoothly. Lb knows what he is doing. When Craw runs the point his way he will play, not before. Sorry. If you need evidence of this just pay attention to how his playing time at the point is slowly increasing. Why? because he is learning. But he is not ready to get 20 or 30 minutes there without turning our offense into mush.

WE all make the same mistake over and over again. We think guys develop by placing them on the court. That is not the way it works. Guys develop and THEN they get placed on the court.
I just hope that people will like me
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