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I feel for you Steph
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OldFan
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12/5/2005  5:03 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Knight:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Knight:

Patrick won.


Obviously you don't read or listen to the media or live in NY.


Patrick was and is respected around the league, Marbury isn't.

I can tell you aren't that old if you made a comment like that. Patrick was admired from afar by some but he wasn't well like by many. For all your ramblings about Marbury, he is actually well liked around the league. Patrick and the NY media were at constant odds. Other from afar believed him to be failure because he never lived up to the hype of being the next Russell. It wasn't until Ewing's retirement year that NY gain a great apprepciation for what he did in his tenture.

So NY media was jaded, who cares? The fact is that Patrick was a great player and a future Hall of Famer who took his team deep into the playoffs on a regular basis. Steph is garbage compared to that.

Seeing how you brought up the topic. You were incorrect, and I corrected you. I guess you are saying who cares about what you post? But you hate Steph. Is that what your tantrum was about, sorry.

But your correction wasn't definitely correct though.

Patrick was the more respected player. How many GMs would take Stephs prime over Patricks?

Patrick may or may not have been liked and no he didn't become the next Bill Russell - but he was much more of an impact player then Marbs.
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Bippity10
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12/5/2005  5:15 PM
I'm sorry I brought it up. Everyone is missing the point. Noone in the right mind is saying that STeph is the player that Patrick was. What I'm saying is that we always attack our best players and then can't figure out why free-agents use us to get more money elsewhere. Patrick was booed, told we were better without him, called a ball hog, called mean, all while he kept us out of the lottery and in the title hunt every year. Then he left and look where we are. Steph is no franchise player. STeph has flaws, but the guy is trying to do right by LB and we continue to blame him for the losses and want to run him out of town even though 2/5 of the starting line-up has given us nothing for two straight years.
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djsunyc
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12/5/2005  5:27 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

but I do think the question of his leadership is valid. If we decide that we don't want him around the kids we have to assume that we are not going to get the same value in return and will probably set ourselves back more in the short run. At that point in time Curry will be our best player and I'm sure the venom will finally turn to him.

i think that's it in a nutshell. we ARE NOT going to get equal value in return talentwise...there's no way. but at the end of the day...long term, it may be addition by subtraction. key phrase is long term. what it comes down to, wherever we go as a franchise, be it this year or 5 years from now, it will rest on frye's and curry's shoulders (if we don't move them). so marbury is really just a piece and when you look at the game in detroit in the 4th quarter...almost an afterthought. he's played so well but man, maybe it's just not in the cards for him. i don't know. and it's tough to say what we can get in return for him but maybe we have to just turn the page and move on. when you bring this up, alot of marbury supporters don't like it. and that's fine b/c he's probably their favorite player. but there's some huge red flags with him, and our loyalty shouldn't be to one guy but to what gets us to the next level. marbs time to show that he can be the guy is running out. and if he's NOT the guy but just a piece, then man, we don't need to be paying $20 mil for just a piece. that's why he's compared to the ai's, kobe's and so forth. b/c with the type of $$$'s he's getting paid, we're not getting big enough returns.
Killa4luv
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12/5/2005  5:48 PM
^^you still have not made the case for how trading him for unequal value makes us better or helps the team.

Phrases like: addition by subtraction, and turning the page, really are cliches with no meaning. We will not be a better team by subtracting him and you have not made the case for how it helps us in the long run.

Steph is our best player, and it is unbelievable how many people here will find a negative spin on everything he does.

I am like Marv, I have an attachment to him. I love his drive, and his aggression. I like to carry that approach with me when doing certain things in life. So many people hate him, and instead of tearing him down and fuels him. I love that about him. I am not against him being traded if it makes sense though. And no one has present a solid case for trading him. The people who talk about trading him also talk about how he sits on the bench with a towel on his head. They're illogical.

Others have a Crawford fetish. but the bottom line is Steph's our best player, I think LB's offense schemes and rotations leave alot to be desired. We have almost an entirely new team and it will take a while before guys get it going. I am far more concerned about the other players than I am about him. More caught passes, made jumpers, team defense and completed lay ins in the whole, will help this team immensely. I see Steph doing all the right things and I'm waiting for other players to step up to the plate. I'm waiting for Craw to put together a complete game more often. For Q to start clicking. For Eddy Curry to start scoring. JJ to stop getting a foul in his first 2 seconds on the court. When we do that, we'll win.

As far as consistancy, our team has 2 consistant players: Steph & Frye, that is a reality that the statistics and common sense shows us. I would not worry about their positions so much. Everyone else is who I would be looking at, exept for Curry, he's a special case and a special (not easily replaceable) player.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 12-05-2005 5:49 PM]

[Edited by - killa4luv on 12-05-2005 5:50 PM]
SlimPack
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12/5/2005  6:10 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

^^you still have not made the case for how trading him for unequal value makes us better or helps the team.

Phrases like: addition by subtraction, and turning the page, really are cliches with no meaning. We will not be a better team by subtracting him and you have not made the case for how it helps us in the long run.

Steph is our best player, and it is unbelievable how many people here will find a negative spin on everything he does.

I am like Marv, I have an attachment to him. I love his drive, and his aggression. I like to carry that approach with me when doing certain things in life. So many people hate him, and instead of tearing him down and fuels him. I love that about him. I am not against him being traded if it makes sense though. And no one has present a solid case for trading him. The people who talk about trading him also talk about how he sits on the bench with a towel on his head. They're illogical.

Others have a Crawford fetish. but the bottom line is Steph's our best player, I think LB's offense schemes and rotations leave alot to be desired. We have almost an entirely new team and it will take a while before guys get it going. I am far more concerned about the other players than I am about him. More caught passes, made jumpers, team defense and completed lay ins in the whole, will help this team immensely. I see Steph doing all the right things and I'm waiting for other players to step up to the plate. I'm waiting for Craw to put together a complete game more often. For Q to start clicking. For Eddy Curry to start scoring. JJ to stop getting a foul in his first 2 seconds on the court. When we do that, we'll win.

As far as consistancy, our team has 2 consistant players: Steph & Frye, that is a reality that the statistics and common sense shows us. I would not worry about their positions so much. Everyone else is who I would be looking at, exept for Curry, he's a special case and a special (not easily replaceable) player.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 12-05-2005 5:49 PM]

[Edited by - killa4luv on 12-05-2005 5:50 PM]

it would make us a better team in that it would give us a chance to sign and trade for someone whos actually worth his contract like a superstar, or just someone who can help this team moreso. and still have the flexibily to resign our current players.

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-05-2005 6:12 PM]
Killa4luv
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12/5/2005  6:20 PM
^^^^^Perhaps you should revisit this thread http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=12918 to understand why that argument holds no water at all.

Hows about a little consistancy?

AND how does not having Steph help us resign our players again? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

[Edited by - killa4luv on 12-05-2005 6:22 PM]
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  6:57 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

^^you still have not made the case for how trading him for unequal value makes us better or helps the team.

Phrases like: addition by subtraction, and turning the page, really are cliches with no meaning. We will not be a better team by subtracting him and you have not made the case for how it helps us in the long run.

Steph is our best player, and it is unbelievable how many people here will find a negative spin on everything he does.

yes, steph is our best player but just like you think we can win with him, i don't know if we can. i am not a big believer in a team's pg also being their best scorer. we can have bdiddy and my thoughts would still be the same. it's not steph but the philosophy of a steph type pg. and making steph a pass-first pg brings him down alot and i don't want to pay $20 mil for that.

we do not have a stud pg waiting in the wings so i understand not moving him now...but eventually, i think we have to make the move.


[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-05-2005 6:59 PM]
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  7:04 PM
Posted by Marv:

one more thing about steph - i recognize some of the legitimate criticsms of him and i don't debate those. but here's one more angle - you ever just flat out like a certain player and feel a bond with him? and they don't have to be perfect it can be as much for their flaws as for their positive traits? you know what i mean, it's kind of how a lot of people feel about ewing. well that's what i feel with steph. the guy's like a character out of shakespeare or dante or something, he's had the weight of the world on his shoulders since he was a 14 year old schoolboy, he's had some real lows and some real highs and he seems to provoke very strong and totally opposite emotional reactions from people.

btw, i give steph ALOT of props b/c he takes so much criticism yet shows up everyday, plays 40 mins, and comes back the next day. nobody can question his mental and physical strength.
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12/5/2005  7:32 PM
The enduring, heat-of-the-moment scene of this latest loss was Larry Brown barking briefly at Stephon Marbury, and Marbury barking back at the Knicks coach with 16 seconds left.

...

One of the larger mental miscues came by a veteran, Marbury, who finished with a season-high 35 points, attacking all day but making just 1 of 7 in the fourth quarter and struggling from the free-throw line.

Most of all, Marbury drew Brown's ire because of his failure to apply backcourt pressure on Boston's best free-throw shooter, Dan Dickau, to get the ball out of his hands in the final 20 seconds.

Robinson was left to intentionally foul Dickau, the last guy Brown wanted on the line with 16 seconds left. Brown shouted words at Marbury, who returned a heated explanation. "You hope in a situation like that maybe we understood (Dickau) has a hard time with pressure," Brown said

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/58426.htm

a 9 year vet playing the head [no pun intended] position on the team has no awareness of the capabilities of the opponent.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-05-2005 7:32 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
WOODMANnYk
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12/5/2005  7:39 PM
It's so funny how everytime MArbury leaves a team, they end up winning 50 games the next yr..

What does that tell you about Marbury.. he's not a winner and doe not make players around him better..
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Bippity10
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12/5/2005  7:39 PM
Posted by McK1:
The enduring, heat-of-the-moment scene of this latest loss was Larry Brown barking briefly at Stephon Marbury, and Marbury barking back at the Knicks coach with 16 seconds left.

...

One of the larger mental miscues came by a veteran, Marbury, who finished with a season-high 35 points, attacking all day but making just 1 of 7 in the fourth quarter and struggling from the free-throw line.

Most of all, Marbury drew Brown's ire because of his failure to apply backcourt pressure on Boston's best free-throw shooter, Dan Dickau, to get the ball out of his hands in the final 20 seconds.

Robinson was left to intentionally foul Dickau, the last guy Brown wanted on the line with 16 seconds left. Brown shouted words at Marbury, who returned a heated explanation. "You hope in a situation like that maybe we understood (Dickau) has a hard time with pressure," Brown said

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/58426.htm

a 9 year vet playing the head [no pun intended] position on the team has no awareness of the capabilities of the opponent.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-05-2005 7:32 PM]



Honestly don't listen to what they write in the papers. They are going to destroy Steph no matter what, even though no one haerd the exchange it will instantly be turned into a Steph hates LB clash. Just like Allan vs Spree it will never stop. The papers create their news not report it.
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Bippity10
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12/5/2005  7:44 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Killa4luv:

^^you still have not made the case for how trading him for unequal value makes us better or helps the team.

Phrases like: addition by subtraction, and turning the page, really are cliches with no meaning. We will not be a better team by subtracting him and you have not made the case for how it helps us in the long run.

Steph is our best player, and it is unbelievable how many people here will find a negative spin on everything he does.

yes, steph is our best player but just like you think we can win with him, i don't know if we can. i am not a big believer in a team's pg also being their best scorer. we can have bdiddy and my thoughts would still be the same. it's not steph but the philosophy of a steph type pg. and making steph a pass-first pg brings him down alot and i don't want to pay $20 mil for that.

we do not have a stud pg waiting in the wings so i understand not moving him now...but eventually, i think we have to make the move.


[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-05-2005 6:59 PM]


Again DJ I agree with you to a point. The guy has yet to prove he can win but man look at his time with the Nets, Phoenix and the Knicks. The guy never seems to play with a healthy roster. Again 2/5 of the starting line-up has given us NOTHING. Can't we at least get a full five with a productive Curry and Q producing their career numbers before we blame Steph. In Jersey it was the same thing. Marbury makes the playoffs with a complete roster. Misses the playoffs with a series of injuries. Then gets traded, the injuries stop and Marbury is blamed. Last year we are without Houston, Crawford and a SF with some blls. for a significant part of the year. My question is at what point do we start saying we can't win without Q and Curry and James instead of saying we can't win with Steph
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McK1
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12/5/2005  7:54 PM
Its not about if they had a heated exchange, its about the failure by Steph to pressure the guy with the weak handles and force him to give it up or even better turn it over. Instead Nate had to foul an excellent free-throw shooter. Wins-losses are decided by awareness and savvy which usually benefit the team but don't show up in the box score. Steph makes alot of great individual plays bu fails miserably in the intangibles department. The black white and the gray starts with your point guard on both sides of the ball. Steph's inability to make plays in the gray area is why his teams come up short.

Its been reported that he doesn't like practice nor cares for film sessions. Cassell was in the papers admitting he doesn't like film either but understands its necessary and made a promise to Dunleavy he wouldn't let the team slip. The next game they handled the Cavs with ease. I question Steph's place on the team because we never hear of Steph making those kind of commitment statements and don't see any evidence that he is doing it behind the scenes as well because it is not showing up on the court.

However, Steph was quoted as telling the team they need to play better before Lenny gets fired then skips pactice for a massage.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-05-2005 7:55 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  7:55 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Again DJ I agree with you to a point. The guy has yet to prove he can win but man look at his time with the Nets, Phoenix and the Knicks. The guy never seems to play with a healthy roster. Again 2/5 of the starting line-up has given us NOTHING. Can't we at least get a full five with a productive Curry and Q producing their career numbers before we blame Steph. In Jersey it was the same thing. Marbury makes the playoffs with a complete roster. Misses the playoffs with a series of injuries. Then gets traded, the injuries stop and Marbury is blamed. Last year we are without Houston, Crawford and a SF with some blls. for a significant part of the year. My question is at what point do we start saying we can't win without Q and Curry and James instead of saying we can't win with Steph

that's why i NEVER bring up that point of his teams getting better after he leaves. it's not that valid as the teams he left had big personnel or health changes since he left, like you said. that's the big question...CAN WE WIN WITH STEPH? the answer to that question determines whether he's here or not. i think alot of people want to give him a legitimate chance, am i was one of them. but once the h20 experiment failed and seeing how we're going with a bunch of young guys who are at least 2-3 years away, i don't see the incentive in keeping steph around in the interim. yes, he'll only be 31 then, i understand but i'd rather have a younger guy in there that's going to give up the rock alot more to the other young guys and let them grow together. i just can't see how a guy that takes 15-20 shots a game still be responsible for getting shots for everyone else as well. only way that works is if we run&gun and we're not doing that.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-05-2005 7:56 PM]
Killa4luv
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12/5/2005  7:59 PM
Posted by McK1:

Its not about if they had a heated exchange, its about the failure by Steph to pressure the guy with the weak handles and force him to give it up or even better turn it over. Instead Nate had to foul an excellent free-throw shooter. Wins-losses are decided by awareness and savvy which usually benefit the team but don't show up in the box score. Steph makes alot of great individual plays bu fails miserably in the intangibles department. The black white and the gray starts with your point guard on both sides of the ball. Steph's inability to make plays in the gray area is why his teams come up short.

Its been reported that he doesn't like practice nor cares for film sessions. Cassell was in the papers admitting he doesn't like film either but understands its necessary and made a promise to Dunleavy he wouldn't let the team slip. The next game they handled the Cavs with ease. I question Steph's place on the team because we never hear of Steph making those kind of commitment statements and don't see any evidence that he is doing it behind the scenes as well because it is not showing up on the court.

However, Steph was quoted as telling the team they need to play better before Lenny gets fired then skips pactice for a massage.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-05-2005 7:55 PM]
Did all of this happen before or after you caught him sneaking out of your girlfriends apartment?
djsunyc
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12/5/2005  8:01 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by McK1:

Its not about if they had a heated exchange, its about the failure by Steph to pressure the guy with the weak handles and force him to give it up or even better turn it over. Instead Nate had to foul an excellent free-throw shooter. Wins-losses are decided by awareness and savvy which usually benefit the team but don't show up in the box score. Steph makes alot of great individual plays bu fails miserably in the intangibles department. The black white and the gray starts with your point guard on both sides of the ball. Steph's inability to make plays in the gray area is why his teams come up short.

Its been reported that he doesn't like practice nor cares for film sessions. Cassell was in the papers admitting he doesn't like film either but understands its necessary and made a promise to Dunleavy he wouldn't let the team slip. The next game they handled the Cavs with ease. I question Steph's place on the team because we never hear of Steph making those kind of commitment statements and don't see any evidence that he is doing it behind the scenes as well because it is not showing up on the court.

However, Steph was quoted as telling the team they need to play better before Lenny gets fired then skips pactice for a massage.

[Edited by - McK1 on 12-05-2005 7:55 PM]
Did all of this happen before or after you caught him sneaking out of your girlfriends apartment?

i don't know if paying someone $50 a pop technically makes her his girlfriend

sorry McK1, killa just laid it out there for me to take a big swing at...
SlimPack
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12/5/2005  8:23 PM
I was wrong about marburys contract, It actually doesnt hinder us as much as I thought it did, killa4luv is right about the financial detriments about keeping steph are few if any.
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12/5/2005  8:39 PM
Talk about generalizations...So everyone who likes Marbury can't take criticism.

Usually the mark of someone that can't defend their positions is that they just attack the character of those they disagree with.

Posted by Knight:

It's the people who can't take criticism themselves who defend and sympathize with other people who are criticized--that's why the steph-lovers are so quick to get angry and call other people names whenever somebody says something bad about Steph.

[Edited by - Knight on 12-05-2005 10:51 AM]
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12/5/2005  8:45 PM
but I still dont think it makes much sense for us to keep. I think there are other pgs who could help this team more than marbury can and dont cost nearly as much. purseing that course makes more sense to me. as of right now I dont particularly want marbury to be traded. What I really want is for marbury to be benched for an entire game for 2 or 3 games. I want to know if hes really helping this team as much as his stats indicate, maybe he is but I have seen reason to beleive that he may not.
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12/5/2005  8:50 PM
I'm just curious. If the Knicks traded Stephon and brought in a pg who is pass-first and willing to setup his teamates every time down, then who is doing the scoring for this team? The Knicks are not in the position to go out in the offseason and sign a scorer because of the cap issues, so scoring would be a major problem for this team. Yeah I like Frye, I like Curry and I like Crawford but these guys are nowhere near reliable scoring options. I'd much rather bring in a player via trade to play WITH Marbury than to get trade him off.



[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-05-2005 8:51 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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