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Thank You Channing Frye, you personally stopped the bleeding
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fishmike
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11/27/2005  10:24 AM
Posted by tomverve:

Actually, I'm pretty sure this was our lineup for that last second putback by Webber:

Rose
Ariza
JC
Marbs
Nate

And 4 of those guys went after Iverson on his drive. Not really a shocker that they got the tip.
yea your right.... I was watching the replay this morning. My bad.

Also I never said Frye couldnt be a good rebounder at this level, only that his CBB rebounding wasnt strong and a concern. He's still not a good position rebounder at this level, but this is why YOU PLAY young guys. So they learn.

I'm thrilled with Channing.. I would say he's my favorite Knick right now. Easy... he's old school in his approach. I love it
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Allanfan20
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11/27/2005  11:09 AM
Like I said about 50 times now. I think Channing WILL be a good rebounder, but I have to repeat what I said. He needs to learn to box out in traffic. He needs to put himself in better position to compete for these rebounds. He had 11 last night, which is great, but he went against an aging Webber, Dalembert (His first game back) and Hunter. An EXCELLENT rebounder would have grabbed 15, 16 boards, and would have helped other teammates grab more and more boards. He did a little of that, but not a lot. I wont call his rebounding anything, except a work in progress. Like I said, 8 rpg isn't a high expectation for a couple of years down the road. He'll be able to do it.

Channing is my favorite Knick, along with Jamal, but that doesn't make them immune from criticism from me!
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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11/27/2005  1:35 PM
along with Jamal
Are you serious?
Killa4luv
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11/27/2005  1:38 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by fishmike:

Frye still isnt a good rebounder. His failure to box out Webber is what sent the game into OT in the first place.

Frye wasn't on the floor for that play-- LB subbed in Malik Rose just before Craw's second FT. Check the game thread, there's about 3 pages of complaints about that substitution.

Also, Chris Webber getting that rebound had alot more to do with 4 knick players converging on Allen Iverson. Crawford was the one left to fhight for the rebound with CWebb.

Bonn1997
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11/27/2005  1:42 PM
He had 11 last night, which is great, but he went against an aging Webber, Dalembert (His first game back) and Hunter.
Webber may be aging (we all are!) but he's still a very good rebounder. He's averaging 10 per game. Most PFs get out-rebounded by Webber.
bobs3304
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11/27/2005  2:04 PM
The problem with Frye is that he doesn't have Sheed's perimeter abilities, or TD's rebounding & blocking abilities.

He's caught in the middle.

Yes, he's only a rookie, but how can some of you say Frye and Curry are perfect next to eachother when b/w them, Ben Wallace alone averages more RPG...


[Edited by - bobs3304 on 11-27-2005 2:06 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Allanfan20
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11/27/2005  2:34 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
along with Jamal
Are you serious?

Yeah, got a problem with that Little Boy Bong? (I just keep taking it a step further with the passing days.) Are you sad that Marbury is not my favorite player?

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 11-27-2005 2:35 PM]
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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11/27/2005  2:52 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Bonn1997:
along with Jamal
Are you serious?

Yeah, got a problem with that Little Boy Bong? (I just keep taking it a step further with the passing days.) Are you sad that Marbury is not my favorite player?

[Edited by - Allanfan20 on 11-27-2005 2:35 PM]
No, not at all sad about Marbury. Just shocked that you see enough positives from Jamal for him to be your favorite Knick.
Allanfan20
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11/27/2005  3:08 PM
Sweet mid ranged game which I LOOOOVE from guards. Improving defense. Improving PG skills. Display of leadership. Shown commitment to improve on just about everything. Hustles. Willing to hit the BIG baskets, and he's shown to be a lot more clutch than Steph. If Jamal was the one taking the game winning shot, I'd be thrilled.

And back to the mid range part. My fav Knick was Allan. Outside the Knicks, my favorites are Ray Allen, Rip, Redd all those guys. I know Jamal isn't in their league, but I like the kid anyway, and I'm rooting for him harder than anyone.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
tomverve
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11/27/2005  4:28 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Like I said, 8 rpg isn't a high expectation for a couple of years down the road. He'll be able to do it.

See my previous post. It's really pretty meaningless to gauge a player's rebounding ability by rpg, since that stat varies dramatically with minutes played and team pace. But even if we ignore pace and assume you're using a 36 minute per game baseline, it looks like Frye is already better than the 8 rpg you predict a couple of years down the road.
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tomverve
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11/27/2005  4:37 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
He had 11 last night, which is great, but he went against an aging Webber, Dalembert (His first game back) and Hunter.
Webber may be aging (we all are!) but he's still a very good rebounder. He's averaging 10 per game. Most PFs get out-rebounded by Webber.

I would say Webber is a solid rebounder at this point, not very good. He currently ranks 43rd in the league with a 14.6 rebound rate, and that doesn't seem like a fluke; last year he was 51st overall with a 14.5 rebound rate. By comparison, Frye currently ranks 42nd in the league with a 14.7 rebound rate, just ahead of Webber. (Recall that rebound rate is essentially an estimate of what % of available rebounds a player grabs while he is on the floor.)

To give an idea of what those #s mean, here's a list of all players who currently have a rebound rate between 14.1 and 15.1 (from highest to lowest):

Zach Randolph 15.1
Chris Bosh 15.1
Adonal Foyle 14.9
Lorenzen Wright 14.9
Channing Frye 14.7
Chris Webber 14.6
Chris Taft 14.5
Mehmet Okur 14.5
Kenny Thomas 14.5
Juwon Howard 14.3
Bonzi Wells 14.2
PJ Brown 14.1
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Bonn1997
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11/27/2005  5:34 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Bonn1997:
He had 11 last night, which is great, but he went against an aging Webber, Dalembert (His first game back) and Hunter.
Webber may be aging (we all are!) but he's still a very good rebounder. He's averaging 10 per game. Most PFs get out-rebounded by Webber.

I would say Webber is a solid rebounder at this point, not very good. He currently ranks 43rd in the league with a 14.6 rebound rate, and that doesn't seem like a fluke; last year he was 51st overall with a 14.5 rebound rate. By comparison, Frye currently ranks 42nd in the league with a 14.7 rebound rate, just ahead of Webber. (Recall that rebound rate is essentially an estimate of what % of available rebounds a player grabs while he is on the floor.)

To give an idea of what those #s mean, here's a list of all players who currently have a rebound rate between 14.1 and 15.1 (from highest to lowest):

Zach Randolph 15.1
Chris Bosh 15.1
Adonal Foyle 14.9
Lorenzen Wright 14.9
Channing Frye 14.7
Chris Webber 14.6
Chris Taft 14.5
Mehmet Okur 14.5
Kenny Thomas 14.5
Juwon Howard 14.3
Bonzi Wells 14.2
PJ Brown 14.1
I assume rebounding rate is per 48 #s? If so, that disadvantages guys who play big minutes (like Webber's 40+ mpg) and are more tired while playing.

newyorknewyork
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11/27/2005  5:36 PM
How about rebounds per min or second??

Its also not just about rebounding #s, Its keeping opponents off the offensive glass. If our bigs box out there bigs and someone like Crawford gets the rebounds then there doing there job. Or keeping the ball alive when we are on offense. Getting 2nd chances even if the bigs don't get the rebound, tiping it out to the guards is just as big.

We just want to see Frye become a complete forward. The better he becomes the better the Knicks become.
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Bonn1997
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11/27/2005  5:37 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Sweet mid ranged game which I LOOOOVE from guards. Improving defense. Improving PG skills. Display of leadership. Shown commitment to improve on just about everything. Hustles. Willing to hit the BIG baskets, and he's shown to be a lot more clutch than Steph. If Jamal was the one taking the game winning shot, I'd be thrilled.

And back to the mid range part. My fav Knick was Allan. Outside the Knicks, my favorites are Ray Allen, Rip, Redd all those guys. I know Jamal isn't in their league, but I like the kid anyway, and I'm rooting for him harder than anyone.
Heck if Jamal was doing these things as a rookie, I'd be excited. But I expect more progress from someone with his talent by seasons six. He might have a good mid range game if he's wide open, but his shooting is bad mid range or longer when he puts up stupid off balance shots.
Willing to hit the BIG baskets, and he's shown to be a lot more clutch than Steph.
People just have higher expectations for Steph. If Jamal had the 4th Q and overtime that Steph had yesterday, eveyrone would be saying it was a huge clutch performance. Maybe Jamal has hit more memorable shots in the final five or six seconds, but that's not how I'd measure clutch. I'd look more at FGs, assists, and defense in the final quarter of close games.
tomverve
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11/27/2005  5:56 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I assume rebounding rate is per 48 #s? If so, that disadvantages guys who play big minutes (like Webber's 40+ mpg) and are more tired while playing.


Rebound rate is not rebounds per 48. If you think about it, even if your normalize for minutes played and pace, you still can't get equal footing for comparing rebound numbers, because in some games there will be a lot more missed shots than in others, and the more missed shots there are the more rebounds there are. Rebound rate thus measures a player's rebounding ability in terms of what percentage of available rebounds that player grabs. If there are 10 missed shots during the time player X is on the floor, and player X grabs 2 of them, then X has a rebound rate of 2 / 10 = 20% for that period of playing time.

I doubt that rebound rate fluctuates much as a function of playing time, but it's a plausible idea. Maybe you could take a look at some stats and see if there is any dropoff in rebound rate like that. But various studies in the past have shown that players' rates of statistical production do not tend to drop off as a function of playing time; rather, they tend to remain constant.
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tkf
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11/28/2005  4:34 AM
I hate I missed the game, was in South beach miami, but when I got back to the condo, I saw the highlights and was happy.. Nice win.... Marbs with a big game as well as frye and nate...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
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11/28/2005  8:04 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I assume rebounding rate is per 48 #s? If so, that disadvantages guys who play big minutes (like Webber's 40+ mpg) and are more tired while playing.


Rebound rate is not rebounds per 48. If you think about it, even if your normalize for minutes played and pace, you still can't get equal footing for comparing rebound numbers, because in some games there will be a lot more missed shots than in others, and the more missed shots there are the more rebounds there are. Rebound rate thus measures a player's rebounding ability in terms of what percentage of available rebounds that player grabs. If there are 10 missed shots during the time player X is on the floor, and player X grabs 2 of them, then X has a rebound rate of 2 / 10 = 20% for that period of playing time.

I doubt that rebound rate fluctuates much as a function of playing time, but it's a plausible idea. Maybe you could take a look at some stats and see if there is any dropoff in rebound rate like that. But various studies in the past have shown that players' rates of statistical production do not tend to drop off as a function of playing time; rather, they tend to remain constant.
not a big fan of stats in general in terms of measuring a player but thats a good #. I think the thing that might inflate or deflate those #s are a guy's teammates.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheSage
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11/28/2005  9:59 AM
Frye compares reasonably well to Duncam for their rookie years. Duncan 21/12/2.5 blks in 39 mpg-Frye based on 39 mins 22/10/1.5 and Frye isn't playing next to a HOF at the 5. Garnett in second year 17/8/2 in 39 mins. Based on those and other players-I would conconclude that Frye is in pretty good company.
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11/28/2005  10:08 AM
Posted by tkf:

I hate I missed the game, was in South beach miami, but when I got back to the condo, I saw the highlights and was happy.. Nice win.... Marbs with a big game as well as frye and nate...

someone with MSG needs to sopcast the games. i live in MA and only get Boston games, probably only see 10 knicks games a year, unless they make the playoffs. i love visiting the inlaws for 1 reason only, they live in CT and get MSG.
fishmike
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11/28/2005  10:12 AM
get the NBA package.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Thank You Channing Frye, you personally stopped the bleeding
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