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Taking This Season WAY Too Seriously...
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fishmike
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11/25/2005  11:20 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

hey Bonn.. you can barely speak for yourself, dont speak for me.
huh? Cute attack, but where did I speak for you fishy?



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11-25-2005 11:16 AM]
its not an attack. You said "fans like Briggs and Fish." Dont assume to pretend whats on my mind or how I would react.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
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11/25/2005  11:21 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Just dont give me some crap about this season not mattering though, or that we are rebuilding and its really about a couple years from now. If this season didnt matter we would have stuck with Herb rather than pay $10mm for a guy with a history of favoring veteran players. We wouldnt have given a 5 year deal to guy thats 30. We wouldnt have added Mo Taylor or begged for AD to stay.

why would we stick with Herb if we were rebuilding? to me, LB is a better teacher of the game which is what we need most with our players.
Yeah, I don't get that either. You want to teach the young guys who you rebuilding with. So the smart decision is to have Herb instead of Larry teach them. I wonder if you took a poll of GMs or knowledgable fans around the league, how many would agree with Fish's view on this one.
hey Bonn... whats my view?


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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11/25/2005  11:29 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Just dont give me some crap about this season not mattering though, or that we are rebuilding and its really about a couple years from now. If this season didnt matter we would have stuck with Herb rather than pay $10mm for a guy with a history of favoring veteran players. We wouldnt have given a 5 year deal to guy thats 30. We wouldnt have added Mo Taylor or begged for AD to stay.

why would we stick with Herb if we were rebuilding? to me, LB is a better teacher of the game which is what we need most with our players.
Yeah, I don't get that either. You want to teach the young guys who you rebuilding with. So the smart decision is to have Herb instead of Larry teach them. I wonder if you took a poll of GMs or knowledgable fans around the league, how many would agree with Fish's view on this one.
hey Bonn... whats my view?
hey fish...the view you stated was that you don't hire Larry Brown if you're rebuilding. You keep Herb.




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11-25-2005 11:29 AM]
SlimPack
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11/25/2005  11:29 AM
fishmike has a point, we've traded alot of draft picks and are playing alot vetarans all for a losing record. look at the bobcats, I'd give anything for the knicks to be in the same situation the bobcats are in right now. its true that they have a losing record, but they have a good young core of players and , a system that seems to work well for them, and have the cap space and draft picks to improve in the future, they are headed in the right direction, we on the other hand have none of those things, we are a losing team with only 1 draft pick for ourselves, 1 for another team, and have by far the highest payroll in the nba. Things dont look partiularly good from my pov anyway for the knicks right now.







[Edited by - slimpack on 11-25-2005 11:33 AM]
Bonn1997
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11/25/2005  11:30 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

hey Bonn.. you can barely speak for yourself, dont speak for me.
huh? Cute attack, but where did I speak for you fishy?



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11-25-2005 11:16 AM]
its not an attack. You said "fans like Briggs and Fish." Dont assume to pretend whats on my mind or how I would react.
Are you talking about the jumping off the bridge joke? I honestly didn't think that would get under your skin so much. I'm sorry it did.


fishmike
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11/25/2005  11:38 AM
read it again:
Originally posted by fishmike:

Just dont give me some crap about this season not mattering though, or that we are rebuilding and its really about a couple years from now. If this season didnt matter we would have stuck with Herb rather than pay $10mm for a guy with a history of favoring veteran players. We wouldnt have given a 5 year deal to guy thats 30. We wouldnt have added Mo Taylor or begged for AD to stay.
My point (if that wasnt clear enough) was that hiring Larry along with the other roster moves were done because winning games was ABSOLUTELY a priority this year.

I then followed with this:
jay, because LB wasnt just brought in here to be a teacher. He was brought in to get wins out of Marbury, Mo T, AD, Q, Jerome James, Crawford, Rose and he's being paid $10mm a year to do so.
Teaching is a part of EVERY coaches job. Or at least it should be. Its implied. There's lots of good teachers around. Looks like Bernie Bickerstaff is doing a good job of teaching in Cha.

Larry Brown is being paid $10mm because we have a roster that costs $150mm+ and owndership wants to see it yield wins.

I bet if you poll GMs or knowledgeable fans that they would agreee 100% with that view

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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11/25/2005  11:40 AM
yes Bonn.. you got completely under my skin. All I could do was pace around fuming about what you wrote. Thanks for the apology... now I can get on with my day.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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11/25/2005  11:46 AM
Posted by SlimPack:

fishmike has a point, we've traded alot of draft picks and are playing alot vetarans all for a losing record. look at the bobcats, I'd give anything for the knicks to be in the same situation the bobcats are in right now. its true that they have a losing record, but they have a good young core of players and , a system that seems to work well for them, and have the cap space and draft picks to improve in the future, they are headed in the right direction, we on the other hand have none of those things, we are a losing team with only 1 draft pick for ourselves, 1 for another team, and have by far the highest payroll in the nba. Things dont look partiularly good from my pov anyway for the knicks right now.
[Edited by - slimpack on 11-25-2005 11:33 AM]
yea.. and its blasphemy to point those obvious points. So instead some would rather write about Ariza coming the next Marion, Frye the next Duncan, and how we have the great young core of talent and its only a matter of time before we explode into the playoffs.

There are some major flaws with how this org is run and this team is constructed. Everyone that writes about the NBA sees it.

Yes are more talented, yes are finally using the draft as a good tool to add players. Yes we finally have a credible coach. These are all good and if you go back and check you will see I said these things would add up to a .500 record (thats an 8 game improvement for those scoring at home). I'm glad we are getting better but this notion of finally going in the right direction and everything will be OK is very far from reality. When you factor in what we mortaged for Curry we have a LOT invested into THIS group of players.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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11/25/2005  11:48 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
we're in this holding pattern with this roster. we need to fully turn the page and do the full rebuild.
How would the roster look different by doing the "full rebuild"? it's already a young roster mostly of 20 to 25 year olds. Maybe we'd have cap space if you're into that. Is that what you mean by full rebuild?

#1 - i wouldn't have signed jj or traded for mo but now that's done...
#2 - ad, mo, malik are restricted to 10-15 mins each TOPS and NOT STARTING. the <25 guys are starting and getting all the playing time while we either let those old dogs expire or moved for shorter deals and/or younger players.
#3 - this is where most may disagree with me but either move steph off the ball or off the team. off the ball doesn't look like it's in the cards so it's off the team. why? b/c i'd rather go with the younger guys and see what they got. i think that as long as steph is here we can't really fully assess what we have in these players. i'm a big "ctrl-alt-del" type of guy. assess what you have, and if it ain't working, reboot. it's really spilled milk on my end tho as this is what i've been asking for since 2001 but never got it...and it looks like i never will either.
#4 - NO MORE big $$$ deals. looks like the new knick standard contract starts around $6/7 and goes to $10 4-5 years down the road. that's better but still overpaying for some.
#5 - NO MORE TRADING PICKS...EVER.

with what we have now, we could do #2 and #3. let's start there and see what happens.

starting saturday, we start craw AT PG, steph AT SG (off the ball for the majority of time), ariza/lee, frye, and curry. that should be our starting lineup for a while. let them play together and let them grow. rose starting does nothing for us long term. neither does starting AD. what? are you worried that we'll get blown out in games? you mean like wednesday? at least this time, it will be with a purpose.

ok, this is my last official "whine whine whine for rebuild" post.
jaydh
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11/25/2005  11:52 AM
Posted by fishmike:

jay, because LB wasnt just brought in here to be a teacher. He was brought in to get wins out of Marbury, Mo T, AD, Q, Jerome James, Crawford, Rose and he's being paid $10mm a year to do so.


i thought he was brought in to teach the fundamentals to Frye, Lee, Nate, Ariza, Butler, Curry and JC; to make Marbury into a better PG; and to use MoT,AD,Q, and JJ effectively. Its not about wins, its about making our players better first and getting the most out of them, and LB is one of the best at doing that, not Herb.
SlimPack
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11/25/2005  11:53 AM
well Im not claiming to be anymore knowledgable than any other fan, but I have to agree with fishmike, if we were the houston rockets, charlotte bobcats, boston celtics, or the the chicago bulls, then i would agree with briggs jayd, and all the other guys that said that a slow start shouldnt discourage us, becuase in the case with those teams they have shown potential and have future prospects to make them better in case they don't win. but the fact of the matter is we arent those teams, if we dont win we're screwed. and the fact that we've come out to slow start is very discouraging.



[Edited by - slimpack on 11-25-2005 12:04 PM]
fishmike
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11/25/2005  11:57 AM
if we just worked with the draft and didnt take on ANY deals that go longer than next years group (Mo T, Houston, Penny, JYD, TT, Shandon Anderson) this is where we would be:
Marbury
Crawford
Q
Sweetney
Frye
with Ariza, Nate, Lee, Rose, Mo T and Butler off the bench.

We would have had good picks in the next 2 drafts and we would have had the OPTION to move Marbury mid next year for an expiring deal and in doing so freeing up cap space to pursue a close to max or max level player.

I think thats what most GMs would have done. It gives you the most flexibility which is what the GMs around the league look for when they are in a tough situation.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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11/25/2005  12:03 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

jay, because LB wasnt just brought in here to be a teacher. He was brought in to get wins out of Marbury, Mo T, AD, Q, Jerome James, Crawford, Rose and he's being paid $10mm a year to do so.


i thought he was brought in to teach the fundamentals to Frye, Lee, Nate, Ariza, Butler, Curry and JC; to make Marbury into a better PG; and to use MoT,AD,Q, and JJ effectively. Its not about wins, its about making our players better first and getting the most out of them, and LB is one of the best at doing that, not Herb.
Like Skiles did last year for pocket change? Jay.. do you really beleive that management isnt concerned about winning games? Seriously.. Dolan writes these checks out:
$8mm + for Curry
$10mm for Larry
$5mm for Jerome James
adding more future payroll in Rose/Mo T at the last deadline
adding more future payroll for Q/Nate

You going to tell me winning games, making the playoffs and selling tickets isnt a priority?

Please


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
jaydh
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11/25/2005  12:03 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

#2 - ad, mo, malik are restricted to 10-15 mins each TOPS and NOT STARTING. the <25 guys are starting and getting all the playing time while we either let those old dogs expire or moved for shorter deals and/or younger players.

mo, and malik pretty much are restricted to 10-15mins each. their minutes will decrease as Curry gets healthy and in shape. Same goes for AD once Frye and Lee become more consistent.
Posted by djsunyc:

#3 - this is where most may disagree with me but either move steph off the ball or off the team. off the ball doesn't look like it's in the cards so it's off the team. why? b/c i'd rather go with the younger guys and see what they got.

who would play the PG if not marbury?
Posted by djsunyc:

#4 - NO MORE big $$$ deals. looks like the new knick standard contract starts around $6/7 and goes to $10 4-5 years down the road. that's better but still overpaying for some.

that all depends on the player.
Posted by djsunyc:

#5 - NO MORE TRADING PICKS...EVER.

i'll trade proven talent for unknown anyday.
Posted by djsunyc:

starting saturday, we start craw AT PG, steph AT SG (off the ball for the majority of time), ariza/lee, frye, and curry. that should be our starting lineup for a while. let them play together and let them grow. rose starting does nothing for us long term. neither does starting AD. what? are you worried that we'll get blown out in games? you mean like wednesday? at least this time, it will be with a purpose.

JC would be horrible at PG, he doesnt even penetrate, we would be better off with Nate at PG, he at least gets in to the lane. frye, and lee are still getting their minutes, so i dont see how starting them will do anything different.
djsunyc
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11/25/2005  12:06 PM
i don't care if jamal stinks as pg, all i'm saying is let's see him run it. he seems to be able to make some plays and actually works well in the uptempo system the few chances he gets to run it so let's see it for an extended time. IF he can't do it, then make him a 6th man combo guard. i'm not saying we have all the answers, i just want to be able to fully assess them.
fishmike
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11/25/2005  12:11 PM
i just want to be able to fully assess them.
like how good Sweetney could be if given starters minutes? Hey.. looks like the Bulls are willing to find out
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
SlimPack
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11/25/2005  12:11 PM
I agree with djsunyc, I dont know how good JC would be as a pg, but as of right now marbury is getting payed approximately 16.5 mill to average, 16\6.5, and hasnt exactly shown great strides in becoming the pg that brown wants, it would be better to have brown adapt to him than vice versa, but its still early and marbury could eventually change but I still dont think sacrificing wins to change him is the right move.

[Edited by - slimpack on 11-25-2005 12:12 PM]
djsunyc
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11/25/2005  12:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:
i just want to be able to fully assess them.
like how good Sweetney could be if given starters minutes? Hey.. looks like the Bulls are willing to find out

oh man...i don't even want to go there. good for him tho. they are giving him a legitimate chance and he's showing them the same things he's shown us here...except now he's playing 30+ mins and dropping 20/10's and still getting to the line.

it's still WAY early in curry's development as he's still a baby (in my eyes) but i can see him sort of fade-away in tough moments of games where a player like frye will step up and try to take over. it's an inherent trait. the bulls are throwing it into sweetney during big minutes and he's producing. this is not a knock on the trade or curry.

hopefully aguirre will turn curry into a beast b/c he is the 2nd most physically dominating presence in the league.
fishmike
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11/25/2005  12:34 PM
this is how and why Knick management fail. Lets just say....
Knicks give Sweetney bigtime minutes in the final 20 games of last year. Sweets is at 12.5/8.5 and shooting .523 for the season. Pretty DAMN GOOD. His last 5 games? 14/9 with 5 blocks in 5 games.

Maybe JUST MAYBE after proving he could do that LAST YEAR this trade DOESNT cost us 3 draft picks and and option to move up in 07. Maybe Pax is happy to make it even because Sweetney is really even value and he's losing Curry anyway.

Instead we play Mo T, Rose, KT and co down the stretch while Sweets gets his 20 minutes a game (but gee... he EARNED it) and we end up overpaying for Curry because we arent getting good value for Sweetney.

Imagine if we won the lottery in the next 2 years? Chi would get that pick and you could go back to NOT playing Sweetney in 04 costing you a chance at franchise talent.

Thats the difference between team run well and poorly. Good ones give themselves every change
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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11/25/2005  12:44 PM
#1 - i wouldn't have signed jj or traded for mo but now that's done...
I agree that perfect rebuilding would mean Isiah made no mistakes and we wouldn't have those two players right now.
ad, mo, malik are restricted to 10-15 mins each TOPS and NOT STARTING.
I blame Larry, not Isiah, for that.
NO MORE big $$$ deals. looks like the new knick standard contract starts around $6/7 and goes to $10 4-5 years down the road. that's better but still overpaying for some.
I don't connect salary to rebuilding. If we got some more wonderful players to rebuild with but also took back one or two bad contracts, I'd be fine with that.
NO MORE TRADING PICKS...EVER.
That's a crazy restriction. So you wouldn't have given up even 1 2nd rd pick to get Eddy Curry? If you're getting a young player who's likely to be better than the player you can draft with the pick, good rebuilding would require you to make the deal.
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