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STEPHON IS NOT A SG... JAMAL IS NOT A PG
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gunsnewing
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10/22/2005  1:43 PM
this is a very difficult argument to have. I don't like what I've seen from Marbury as a PG throughout his career and as PG of the Knicks. He looked his best when his job was to get the ball to KG. Very simple task for a player with very low basketball IQ. Marbury needs play with already established offensive star big guys. We don't have that star player but we have Curry and Larry Brown. We'll be fine with Marbury at PG. Just because Marbury is a stagnant PG who doesn't make things happen on the court other than when he does what he does best, which is take the shot himself since he is a scorer, it doesn't mean Crawford will do a better job. Crawford has his own difficiencies like terrible decision making for one! I think Andrew said it best when he said Nate makes things happen on both ends of the floor and he inspires his teammates to play harder. The offense has been too one-dimensional and stagnant with both Marbury and Crawford running the show
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gunsnewing
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10/22/2005  1:46 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I disagree Bobs. Stephon is a slashing pg which in this type of offense is exactly what the PG needs to do. I agree Stephon is not a PG for every team in the NBA but he certainly fits the Knicks and over 50% of NBA teams. The ability that sets Stephon apart from Jamal and other "PGs" is the ability to drive and dish, the dishing on this team can goto Q for a Set-Three, it can goto Ariza whom is cutting to the basket, it can goto Frye for a baseline-jumper or it can goto Curry for an alley-oop. While I don't think Stephon is a true PG, he makes good decisions with the basketball, if you take the ball out of his hands as PG of the Knicks you lose alot of what I just mentioned becuase Jamal Crawford is not skilled or smart enough to make those passes. I've seen what Jamal does with the basketball he shoots it and rarely sets up ANY teammate with a better shot.

good post. i hope the constant slashing and kicking will be enough to get everyone going
gunsnewing
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10/22/2005  2:00 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by bobs3304:

You could argue that Pax (or Skiles) is making the same mistake by letting Hinrich play the 2, which would make it the coaches/GM's fault.....not Crawford's.

He just has to find his nich...

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 10-22-2005 03:32 AM]


I'm tired of combo PG/SGs. I think Marbury is MUCH more suited to play the point then Crawford is but I'm waiting for Larry to goto Isiah and say, I need a TRUE PG in here to run this team or else it's not going to work.


exactly. either that wilk happen or crawford will be gone before crawford suddenly becomes a good decisionmaker



[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-22-2005 2:09 PM]
gunsnewing
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10/22/2005  2:05 PM
The point I'm trying to make is that Chicago realized that Jamal wasn't a PG and so did Michigan, who had one of their WORST years in recent years when Crawford was on the team for that one year he played there.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 10-22-2005 03:40 AM]

exsctly! people thing Crawford is going to be some kind of superstar. When Crawford turns 30 maybe we'll stop hearing about his potential and how special player he is as the Knicks organization pins him as being only to sell more tickets
nyk4ever
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10/22/2005  2:06 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:



exactly. either that wilk happen or crawford will be gone before crawford suddenly becomes a good decisionmaker

Yeah, most likely I think Crawford will be gone. I'm not saying I'm not rooting for Crawford because he COULD be a very special player but to me it seems like he doesnt want to improve. I'll be the first person on this forum to eat crow if Crawford comes out this year to be the PG some think he can be on here because that means the Knicks will be looking good and thats what I want. I'm not here to protect Marbs or any Knick or root against any Knick.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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10/22/2005  2:17 PM
Posted by Elite:

OK someone explain this PLEASE:

How can u justify calling steph a bad passer/playmaker when he avg 8+ assist every year ... Does assists not necisarily mean he's getting others involved???? Cuz it sure seems that is the actual meaning of the ****in word.... Or wait... Maybe certain kinds of assists are more important than others and steph only passes unimportant assists right??? This is assinine... If someone avg 10+ reb for a career it like sayin he not a good rebounder... Stephon is a good muh ****in pg playmaker paasser all that **** gimmy a good argument that negates his assists seriously


connecting for 8 assists when you play 40mins a game and have the ball in your hands for that entire 40mins isn't all that hard to do. The biggest mistake people make is they judge Marbury by his assist total without paying attention to the games. The one thing I'm banking on is what nyk4ever said which was a very good point, last year we Marbury missed out on a ton of assists on penetrating and passing it to nazr only for him to blow point blank layups. This year there are so many more options for Marbury in Curry, AD, James, Frye, Lee & Q. I just hope it translates to wins not a higher assist total for Marbury in another losing season
Elite
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10/22/2005  2:45 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Elite:

OK someone explain this PLEASE:

How can u justify calling steph a bad passer/playmaker when he avg 8+ assist every year ... Does assists not necisarily mean he's getting others involved???? Cuz it sure seems that is the actual meaning of the ****in word.... Or wait... Maybe certain kinds of assists are more important than others and steph only passes unimportant assists right??? This is assinine... If someone avg 10+ reb for a career it like sayin he not a good rebounder... Stephon is a good muh ****in pg playmaker paasser all that **** gimmy a good argument that negates his assists seriously


connecting for 8 assists when you play 40mins a game and have the ball in your hands for that entire 40mins isn't all that hard to do. The biggest mistake people make is they judge Marbury by his assist total without paying attention to the games. The one thing I'm banking on is what nyk4ever said which was a very good point, last year we Marbury missed out on a ton of assists on penetrating and passing it to nazr only for him to blow point blank layups. This year there are so many more options for Marbury in Curry, AD, James, Frye, Lee & Q. I just hope it translates to wins not a higher assist total for Marbury in another losing season





Dude there are plenty of players who have the ball allt he time the same minutes as steph that dont come close to his assist total come on now.. isnt that hard? if it wasent htat hard assist totals would be a lot higher for point gaurds.. and whoever said "u dont call KT a ben wallace on the boards" that doesent even make sense... nobody is sayin Marbury is a Stockton with the passes.. but im sayin hes very very good and by far our best play maker and needs to start at PG NOT SG
bobs3304
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10/22/2005  2:45 PM
Not only did this guy Elite post the same thread on K4L.....but even after 2 pages here and like 3 there he doesn't get it.

Being able to PASS the ball and MAKE PLAYS are 2 completely different things.

Look at JKidd. He makes the extra pass. He lets his teammates get just as much involved in the offense. He leads them. He gets them to rely on themselves just as much as him.

Marbury has this whole "superstar" mentality thing going and watch any game from last year. He only passes when it's for an assist. It's rare to see Marbs make the extra pass, to get the offense flowing.

In that way, he's almost selfish. Or maybe it's the coach. IDK.

One thing's for sure though...LB has def. gotten in his head, b/c I notice Marbs being more distant...it's hard to explain but he's less into the flow of things. Maybe it's preseason, maybe not. We'll find out. But I notice Steph not being him former self...and not being JKidd either...but something in between. He's not enthusiastic AT ALL. But watever. I'll save that for another day.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
gunsnewing
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10/22/2005  3:03 PM
steph played the exact same way last pre-season. he'll be fine once the season starts. I just hope the players around him are good enough this time. The players we added are huge question marks. Thats why its so hard to judge how this will turn out. Neither is a complete, steady player that we can rely on and for as long as we're over the cap with multiple guys receiving maxed out money this instability will continue. tanking last year instead of trying to win a meaningless game against the Wiz would've helped
nyk4ever
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10/22/2005  3:18 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

steph played the exact same way last pre-season. he'll be fine once the season starts. I just hope the players around him are good enough this time. The players we added are huge question marks. Thats why its so hard to judge how this will turn out. Neither is a complete, steady player that we can rely on and for as long as we're over the cap with multiple guys receiving maxed out money this instability will continue. tanking last year instead of trying to win a meaningless game against the Wiz would've helped


Woah, you do NOT want to bring tanking last year again. We had an excellent draft but thats for another thread.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nixluva
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10/22/2005  3:20 PM
I think that the anti Steph guys really don't understand just how much he does for this team. If you look at his PER which as you may know, is the Player Efficiency Rating (Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G) Just compare his PER with that of the other top Guards:

AI 24.87
Wade 23.17
Nash 22.08
Arenas 22.01
Steph 21.91

Then look at Assists per game:

Nash 11.5
Knight 9.0
Kidd 8.3
Steph 8.1

There are other stats that can kind of give you an idea of what Steph actually does as opposed to the way people tend to want to look at him. You have to look at these preseason games for what they are. This is not exactly how the team will play during the season, cuz the Rotation and Minutes will be much different. This is still practice and LB is trying to evaluate this team. So lets not get carried away, one way or the other by these preseason games and who does what. Its a nice indicator, but its not NBA reality. Steph is a MAJOR part of this team and its success this year, will depend on him a lot more than people want to think.

Lets relax and enjoy this team, cuz its only going to get better and better :)
Bonn1997
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10/22/2005  3:22 PM
Posted by Elite:

Lets get this stupid assinine idea out of our offense... Jamal is the WORST decision maker on our team and he is the furthest thing from a point gaurd... Stephon marbury iS NOT A SHOOTING GAURD... he is a point gaurd.. not only is he a point gaurd.. but he is ONE OF THE BEST POINT GAURDS IN THE LEAGUE!!!! the guy is top 3 assists every year give him some credit he is not selfish let the man run the offense jesus christ this is stupid he is not iverson he is A POINT GAURD!!!!
GREAT post. I've been saying for a long time that you don't want your full-time PG to be your team's worst decision maker, which Jamal is. Marbury is a great passer and PG on offense. No player in the league has gotten more points out of his teammates (i.e., more assists) since 1999 than Marbury has. You'd be hardpressed to list 3 guys who set their teammates up for easy baskets better than Marbury does.


nyk4ever
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10/22/2005  3:30 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Elite:

Lets get this stupid assinine idea out of our offense... Jamal is the WORST decision maker on our team and he is the furthest thing from a point gaurd... Stephon marbury iS NOT A SHOOTING GAURD... he is a point gaurd.. not only is he a point gaurd.. but he is ONE OF THE BEST POINT GAURDS IN THE LEAGUE!!!! the guy is top 3 assists every year give him some credit he is not selfish let the man run the offense jesus christ this is stupid he is not iverson he is A POINT GAURD!!!!
GREAT post. I've been saying for a long time that you don't want your full-time PG to be your team's worst decision maker, which Jamal is. Marbury is a great passer and PG on offense. No player in the league has gotten more points out of his teammates (i.e., more assists) since 1999 than Marbury has. You'd be hardpressed to list 3 guys who set their teammates up for easy baskets better than Marbury does.


Thankyou Bonn and good point Nixluva with the PER. I think that stat is very telling of just how much each player is really worth.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
AkiliNYK
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10/22/2005  4:21 PM
I know I dont post often but I want to jump in this one. First off JC and steph at the point comparison is a no brainer people say steph pads his stats, thats ludacris you cant pad 8 assist over 9 years if it was that easy AI B-Davis and alot of the other scoring gaurds would do it but they cant. Not only that he gives you a scoring option at the gaurd position. Hes almost unstopable when other point gaurds are gaurding him. And to add to this the man averages 20 points 1.29 steals and 3 turn overs thats amazing for a point gaurd no matter how you slice it. Crawford whom I think has alot of potential will never reach marburys stardum hes a SG/PG who cant keep his composer alot of games. Hes most fit to come off a teams bench as a 6th man backing up the 2 and 1 positions. (thats why I feel nate was a wasted pick) but thats another story. Bottom line is alot of people hate steph because he doesent have the wins he should be alot of stars dont he has never found that group around him that gels with his play style. IMO this year he will.
I welcome the knicks youth movment its refreshing to see players without pig cartelege in there knee playing for us.
McK1
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10/22/2005  4:23 PM
Kidd Nash Bibby Wade Lebron James Kobe Cassell for starters all get their teaamates easier shots then Stephon does. How many 18 foot jumpshots are guys suppose to make a game?

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
diderotn
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10/22/2005  4:23 PM
Why in the world was Penny even part of the rotation???? It is not good to have too many ball handlers...Esepcially when you have a guy like Marb in the game, that is why in my opinion having Jamal at SG is so confusing for both he and Marb. It is imperative to have a good passing big man like Curry, Frye or Davis to run the plays through with Marb bringing the ball upcourt, instead of Crawff or anyone else handling the rock....Marb is at his best when he is the primary ball handler...He sees the floor better and most of all, he is a lot more creative with the rock on his hand

[Edited by - diderotn on 10-22-2005 4:32 PM]
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Bonn1997
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10/22/2005  4:25 PM
Posted by McK1:

Kidd Nash Bibby Wade Lebron James Kobe Cassell for starters all get their teaamates easier shots then Stephon does. How many 18 foot jumpshots are guys suppose to make a game?
How come most of those players play with superior teammates to Stephon but can only dream of getting the # of assists Stephon gets then? I mean Cassell played with KEVIN GARNETT and got only about 5 assists a game for crying out loud. That's actually a disasterous performance.




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 10-22-2005 4:26 PM]
bobs3304
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10/22/2005  4:26 PM
Posted by nixluva:

If you look at his PER which as you may know, is the Player Efficiency Rating Just compare his PER with that of the other top Guards:

AI 24.87
Wade 23.17
Nash 22.08
Arenas 22.01
Steph 21.91

Then look at Assists per game:

Nash 11.5
Knight 9.0
Kidd 8.3
Steph 8.1

That's an asenine arguement my friend.

The ONLY thing you can say about Steph is the following:

A.) He's an efficient scorer by himself

B.) When commanding the ball for enough MPG...his assist numbers are high.


So what's your point?

Is that what you expect out of your PG?

All you need out of him is padded stats?

Steph played the MOST minutes out of anyone in the league last year.....NO FUCKIN SHIT his numbers are so high. He IS efficient, but Crawford could average close to 20 and 8 with 40+ MPG. So could Nate.

Like I keep saying, those that back Marbury are basically blind. The offense is STAGNANT when he runs it like he did last year. Granted, you can say things like "Nazr dropped passes", and guess what -- I don't blame Steph for that... But how do you know J Kidd wouldn't be able to set him up better? How do you know J Kidd or Nash wouldn't have orchestrated the offense so that everyone got touches and Nazr would be left wide open under the basket.

The thing about Marbury is is that he's a scorer...plain and simple. He can pass, but he's not a passer. Making the extra pass, getting your teammates in the position so that they can create for themselves is what your PG is supposed to do, and Steph doesnt.

If Steph isn't scoring...he's useless b/c he doesn't do the other things that makes this team better. And right now...the last thing we need is scoring from our backcourt. I have confidence in Crawford, unlike most of you......your basing his career on the fact that he's a bad shooter. I base MY confidence on the fact that he's starting to find his niche at the point...where he DOESN'T rely on shooting.

End of story. I can't be wrong...unless Colangelo, McHale, and Thorn are all wrong too.






DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Bonn1997
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10/22/2005  4:29 PM
Then look at Assists per game:

Nash 11.5
Knight 9.0
Kidd 8.3
Steph 8.1
Let's see. Nash had Amare and Marion to pass to. Kidd had Vince Carter and RJ for part of the season. Knight had Okafor. Stephon's most reliable scorer was either 12 PPG from Kurt or 39% shooting from Jamal. It's amazing that Steph's #s are even in the same ballpark as those players.
diderotn
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10/22/2005  4:34 PM
Thank you Bonn
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