what player or players did Ariza kick out of his way? Starting the season our SFs were TT and maybe you can consider Shandon and or Penny on that depth chart. Penny was broken down and Shandon pissed off ISiah. Add Houston going down and we had ZERO wing players. If you want to consider JYD there ok, but we had 1 true SF on the roster aside from Ariza and thats TT.

Holy smoke that couldn't be less true. Ariza did in fact play Anderson off of the team, Anderson's beef with Isiah aside, he would have been played just so they could showcase him if he was outplaying Ariza. It was in all the papers during training camp how Ariza was tearing Anderson's ass.

And then there is Tim Thomas. If he wasn't in front of Ariza then I must have been seeing things last year. Ariza put lots of pressure on TT's playing time though. Ariza earned every minute he got with his play and I surprised you are trying to diminish that by saying the spot was practically open.

Sweetney (last year) had less in front of him than Ariza. KT is good player but he was playing center half the time at least. KT was the only player Sweetney should have been competing with. Sweetney left the door open for JYD, Rose, and Taylor. It should have been Sweetney, KT, and TT across the front line.

I disagree strongly with the way the Knicks finished the season last year as well. But we should not be blaming anyone else for Sweetney's lack of progress thus far. Instead let's hope that he has added to his game so he can seize the PF spot this year.

oohah

How do you not see this? Anderson publicly asked to be traded. He skipped his post season interview. Everyone knew he wasnt going to be Knick. The problem was ISiah couldnt pay anyone to take that crappy deal. He then tried to showcase him in the preseason and early on and even then everyone knew he was going to end up getting cut. Ariza played well in camp but he totally fell into a spot where he was the backup SF. Then you add to the fact that TT had family problems, wasnt focused on BB and shot 39% for first half. Sweetney meanwhile did get solid minutes in essentially what was his first full year, and he did it behind KT and Nazr who were both having career years and great starts.

Its not even close. Ariza had to suck to NOT get minutes. It doesnt matter... agree to disagree. I dont blame anyone for holding back Sweetney. I think 8/5 and >52% for a 2nd year PF is fine off the bench. What sucks is we didnt use the time at the end of the year to get a long look at Sweetney and Ariza, and used that information when making decisions THIS offseason.

How do you not see this? Anderson publicly asked to be traded. He skipped his post season interview. Everyone knew he wasnt going to be Knick. The problem was ISiah couldnt pay anyone to take that crappy deal. He then tried to showcase him in the preseason and early on and even then everyone knew he was going to end up getting cut. Ariza played well in camp but he totally fell into a spot where he was the backup SF. Then you add to the fact that TT had family problems, wasnt focused on BB and shot 39% for first half. Sweetney meanwhile did get solid minutes in essentially what was his first full year, and he did it behind KT and Nazr who were both having career years and great starts.

I did not say that Ariza had the best lineup in front of him but he earned every minute he got, and he did better than what we could have hoped for from a teenage second round draft pick. He made his mark.

Sweetney was not competing with Nazr for a spot, only KT.

Its not even close. Ariza had to suck to NOT get minutes.

I am sorry but that is just silly.

I dont blame anyone for holding back Sweetney. I think 8/5 and >52% for a 2nd year PF is fine off the bench.

If you read back in this thread it certainly looks like you are blaming the coaching staff. (All the "Sweetney gets yanked when he is doing so good" stuff.)

What sucks is we didnt use the time at the end of the year to get a long look at Sweetney and Ariza, and used that information when making decisions THIS offseason.

I did not like it either but it really is not that big of a deal.

whats draft order got to do with anything?

Nothing and everything. That is why we all get so excited when we have lottery picks. It is no assurance of anything but you get a crack at players who are PERCEIVED to be better, therefore we have higher expectations for those players. Do you really expect the same performance from two rookies drafted 35 spots apart?

Should I expect Mo T to be KMart because they have similar salaries? Everyone is different..

This analogy has missed its mark.

Ariza and Sweetney were our pipeline last year, yet they sat for veterans in meaningless April games. Its just dumb

I was more upset about Ariza than Sweetney, but I find Ariza to be more fun to watch.

oohah

he was. Sweetney played more center with KT than PF with Nazr. Nazr was more foul prone and Sweetney replaced him more.

Just because he came in for him does not mean he 'becomes a center'

Also when he and KT were together Sweetney always guarded the center.

Not as I recall.

He said this himself, that he was listed at a PF and KT was listed C, yet when the game started Sweetney played in the paint and checked the other team's 5.

Who said this. Sweetney? Please show me where.

why? If Ariza was a bust who was getting the minutes at SF behind Mr. 39% Tim Thomas? Penny? JYD?

You see, that is the point you are you are missing. There is no "If Ariza was a bust" How could Ariza be a bust? He was a mid-second round pick! Anything you get from a rookie second round pick is gravy. With Ariza we got lottery-caliber talent.

Would we have kept Shandon? Options were pretty thin I would say.

Were Ariza not there Shandon would have played more before we traded him. Ariza took his minutes. Then he put pressure on an established but sucky player (TT). That is pretty impressive for a 19 year old.

In fact my guess is we would have added a Lee Nailon type CBA guy before pretty long.

If Ariza did not step up which he did.

Ariza was great but the minutes were there for the taking

And Ariza took them. I have him penciled in as "small forward of the future" for the Knicks. I think PF has been there for the taking the last 2 years. I can't say I want to pencil in Sweetney for the next 8 years from what I have seen from him as an NBA player.

I'm note blaming the staff for him not being a better player, but its someone's fault we never got to see what he can or cant do if given a fair stretch of games with starters minutes to showcase what we might or might not get. Those are important things to learn when your looking to add a lot of rookies and young players in the offseason. Learning what your current pipeline is good for should have been priority A once the season went to the crapper. Instead both Ariza and Sweetney are ??? marks when we should have a better idea of what to expect.

They aren't ??? to me. Honestly I don't think the last 10-20 games would have changed my opinion of either unless they suddenly improved or regressed dramatically. Having said that, they both should have payed more.

again it depends. One was drafted on his skills, another on his potential.

Seriously, you are going to attempt an argument that states a number 8 pick and a number 43 pick are epected to produce the same as a rookie? Over their careers? Okay, I am ready.

If they did a redo on the draft Ariza would have been in the top 15-20 for sure. ESPN did something like this and I think they put Trevor #10 (give or take).

??? I really don't see the point in this statement. Ariza would be drafted higher now because the NBA would **NOW** know what to **EXPECT** from Ariza. Nobody (Except Isiah Thomas?)EXPECTED Ariza to be this good and that is why 42 players were drafted before him. That is the reason people are always going on about Boozer and Arenas, they are much better than what one usually EXPECTS from a second round pick.

oohah

he said it last year in an interview on MSG and it was repeated during a game. Sorry you dont believe me

It is not a question of believing you. You said it so I asked for a place where I could view this quote. Hardly unreasonable I think.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't ??? to me. Honestly I don't think the last 10-20 games would have changed my opinion of either unless they suddenly improved or regressed dramatically. Having said that, they both should have payed more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you answered my question then.

No I did not answer your question. There was no question actually. What you said was:

They aren't ??? to me. Honestly I don't think the last 10-20 games would have changed my opinion of either unless they suddenly improved or regressed dramatically. Having said that, they both should have payed more.

I had written that in response to:

I'm note blaming the staff for him not being a better player, but its someone's fault we never got to see what he can or cant do if given a fair stretch of games with starters minutes to showcase what we might or might not get. Those are important things to learn when your looking to add a lot of rookies and young players in the offseason. Learning what your current pipeline is good for should have been priority A once the season went to the crapper. Instead both Ariza and Sweetney are ??? marks when we should have a better idea of what to expect.

***

again, you missing the point.

I don't think I am missing the point, I think your point keeps on changing. You started with Sweetney will be a star player:

1:

I love Sweets and his game. I'm in the minority but I 100% believe he wasnt utilized properly and can be a 18/12/2 55% type player in this league.

To say that is to state that he will be a star player.

Then you went on to make some excuses:

2:

His rookie year he was on IR behind 5 veteran PFs.
His second year he found himself in the starting rotation.
He was an established 3 year CBB player with a clearly defined skill set. Anytime he was given a chance to use that skill set he suceeded.

And then you posted some poorly interpreted statisitics...

3:

He's improved each year, and I once posted in every game he played over 30 minutes in this year he produced big time and was NOT in the constant foul trouble some make him out to be.

And then made more excuses...

4:

In GTown, Sweetney was NEVER asked to out and set high screens or chase perimeter players around on help defense. So when he struggles with these things its a knock on him? I dont get it.

And even more excuses...

5:

How can you judge his personality based on what you have seen with the Knicks? It makes no sense. He's had 3 head coaches in 2 years.

Then some hyperbole:

6:

Anytime he's been featured in the post for any stretch of games he's excelled.

He's 6'8 in shoes with a 7'2 wingspan. Please lets get past the size problems and stop making up numbers.

And Yet More excuses...

7:

its apples and oranges. Okafor was a rookie on a team with nothing but rookies. Who else was going to get the ball? Sweetney had Spoon, KT, KVH, Harrington, Mutumbo as well as veteran perimeter scorers. This has nothing to do with personality. Trust me, if Sweetney was on that Cha team he would be getting 35 minutes a game and doing his own share of demanding

And then you pulled back a little...

8:

why does every guy have to be a star or bust? What wrong with drafting usefull players or core players that are important parts of your team. I have no doubt that Sweetney could give you 15/10/2 and shoot 55% right now if handed the minutes. There will be nights where he has problems, and other nights where he totally abuses who guards him in the post.

And then made more excuses:

9:

can any young player? You have be willing to let young guys play through mistakes. You cant go game by game, its just not fair. This team has never given MS a 10 game stretch where they committed to playing him starters minutes. As for being utilized I watched every minute of every game exept maybe 2-3 games when I went skiing, and those I listened too on the radio. I cant tell you how many times I would watch MS run down court and astablish early position only to have the guards fail to deliver him the ball. Crawford said early in the year he's the only bench player he's ever known that commands a double, so why dont they feed him the ball?

And more excuses:

9:

not really... look at Mike's game log. You can see lots of games where he put up very good numbers and just didnt play much after that. Hell, I remember watching a lot of games where MS had big 3rd qtrs only to sit out the 4th for Mo T and Malik Rose.

To summarize, Sweetney would be great except nobody passes to him, there were too many players in front of him and he did not get enough playing time. Yet he is going to Average 18 points, 12 rebounds, and 2 BLOCKED SHOTS!!! Okay, would you beleive 15/10/2?

I am sorry fishmike, but if you go back and read your own "points", you contradict yourself several times.

***

Talent comes from everywhere. Are less commited to developing Ariza because he was drafted later than Sweetney? Thats a bit backwards IMO.

I don't understand.


***

I have no idea what your point is with the whole expectations thing.

Okay, first you wrote:

I guess Ariza didnt earn the minutes either.

Then I wrote:

I really don't think that Ariza is a good comparison to Sweetney. Ariza was a mid second round pick with one year of college, Sweetney was a lottery pick with 3 years of college ball.

I backed that up with:

By any reasonable estimatation, Ariza exceeded expectations by a huge margin as a ROOKIE. Before the season ever started he took Shandon Anderson's spot. He made other teams notice him and really put a body on him. He probably would have gotten a lot more time if not for the TT quagmire.

That is where expectations started. I then contrasted Ariza to Sweetney:

Back to Sweetney, he hasn't done in his two years what Ariza did in a couple of months: Force the team to play him. Has Sweetney exceeded expectation? I don't think so. Has he 'kicked' the players in front of him out of the way like Ariza? Definitely not. Who looks more likely to become a star? Ariza. Mind you Ariza would be a SOPHOMORE in college right now.

In other words, Sweetney has not exceeded expectations thus far, so why would you think he would blossom into the force you described in you first post in this thread?

Then you stated that Ariza practically had the spot handed to him and Sweetney had to fight for his minutes versus the great KT and Mohammed!

Later on you wrote:

whats draft order got to do with anything? Expecations? Should I expect Mo T to be KMart because they have similar salaries? Everyone is different.. Ariza and Sweetney were our pipeline last year, yet they sat for veterans in meaningless April games. Its just dumb

That is when I explained to you that players that are drafted higher (Like Sweetney.) are generally expected to perform at a higher level than those drafted low in the draft (like Ariza).

Good day.

oohah

Posted by Marv:

holy mackarel.

that was the most intense post in the history of the cyberuniverse.

yeah man, it's like you never want to get into a detail-orientated arguement with oohah or you will feel the quoted-wrath.

yeah what the hell......i never seen anything like it.....I might not see anything again if he keeps it up, lol.

I got something to help you out: Hold down the control key and roll your mouse wheel. voila! Text size changes!

hey Oohah did you join any of the Fantasy leagues? Joe still has room if you wanna join!!!!--->>>http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11463

I've seen the thread. I want to join but I am afraid of being consumed. I have never taken part in fantasy leagues before. What is it like?

oohah


[Edited by - oohah on 09-21-2005 9:28 PM]

I never contradicted myself. If you thought that then I should have done a better job typing my comments. I made fair points and offered stats to back up my opinion. I guess I treat this stuff more as an ongoing dialogue and less as hardcoded material for constant reference. If the latter was the case I would have written a thesis for you, but I thought we were just chatting sports.

This is how I chat. I am just a fan of consistency and facts. If one is inconsistent during a particular dialouge, I use quotes as a reference to point that out. Thank god this material is hardcoded, or you could tell me "I never said that" and I couldn't PROVE that you did.

I think Sweetney can be a very good player. 18/12 may seem like a star to you, and certainly for some players it is, but the point is if given the minutes and opportunity to blossum I think thats attainable. Even more so this year where there the most established post scorer is Mo Taylor. So far what opportunity that has been there I think Mike has made the most of (I've documented that, probably misinterpretted by you as an excuse). He did a very good job as a backup and showed when he got starter type minutes that he could be very productive. I never used the word star and Sweetney together.

18/12 and 2 while shooting 55% is a star to ANYONE, on ANY TEAM in the NBA. To say that is not a star is ridiculous. Name me an 18/12/2 55% player who is not a star.

I also havent made excuses for him, more they are reasons. Excuses would indicate I'm displeased with where he is, and I never said that. I did say he wasnt properly utilized.

Okay they are not excuses, they are reasons. Reasons to explain what?

Come on fishmike, let us not be disingenous. Basically you are saying he would have done better but... When you start talking about 'they don't pass him the ball' that is an excuse. When you say he hasn't been 'properly utilized' that is an excuse. And when you say he would have gotten more minutes if not for KT, Spoon, Etc. That is an excuse.

It doesn't mean you are disatisfied, but it means that you think he would have done better if not for all these mitigating factors.

If you scan past all the excuses you think I made or hyperbole etc. (which are legit points)

Legit points that contradict each other.

we come to this:
In other words, Sweetney has not exceeded expectations thus far, so why would you think he would blossom into the force you described in you first post in this thread?

No, you got it wrong again. I don't think he has not exceeded expectations, I think he has not reached expectations. I think with this crappy team we should expect our number 8 pick at PF to at least be starting quality player. Maybe Sweetney will reach that expectation this year.

You got the second part right, what makes you think he will blossom into the STAR you described? Sounds like wishful thinking to me. And in this case, I hope your wishes come true.

I never said he would be a force, only an extremely productive player if given minutes. "Force" and "star" are your words not mine.

Semantics.

I'm sorry to use Nazr or another player as an example... am I making excuses?

Huh?

Is Troy Murphy a star? A force? Or just a nice productive player?

Troy Murphy is not a star or a force...What is your point?

Troy Murphy:
CAREER AVERAGES
REBOUNDS PER GAME
YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
01-02 GSW 82 4 17.7 .421 .333 .776 1.2 2.7 3.9 .9 .44 .26 1.02 2.60 5.9
02-03 GSW 79 79 31.8 .451 .214 .841 2.9 7.3 10.2 1.3 .82 .38 1.41 3.10 11.7
03-04 GSW 28 0 21.8 .440 .294 .750 1.7 4.5 6.2 .7 .43 .61 1.21 2.10 10.0
04-05 GSW 70 69 33.9 .414 .399 .730 3.6 7.2 10.8 1.4 .76 .47 1.54 2.70 15.4
Career 259 152 26.8 .430 .372 .779 2.4 5.5 7.9 1.1 .64 .30 1.30 2.70 10.6

Maybe an Udonis Haslem type but with bona fide post scoring?

So now you are comparing our number 8 pick to an undrafted soon to be journeyman? The answer is no, I don't want Sweetney if he is like Haslem. I have yet to see bonafide post scoring from Sweetney at the NBA level so I am not adding that in.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure you have the intellegence to get my meaning, but for whatever reason you would rather mix and match random quotes to make a point, although whatever that might be has been lost.

Thanks for your comment on my intelligence.

I did not mix and match any quotes. None of them were random either. The quotes were chronologically laid out and they were all from this thread. Sorry to make you look at the inconsistency.

Here is the point: If you think Sweetney is going to average 18/12/2 and 55% that could only be based on hope and faith. If you look at what he has actually done, there is no basis for that kind of prediction. NONE.

Ooha.. ever play sports?

Yes, and I play the way I argue.

oohah

I honestly feel he'll put it all together this year and put up KT numbers or a bit better, but with a higher fg%.

If Sweetney steps in and fills KT's spot with similar numbers, I will be happy.

Fishmike: I am not saying that it is not possible for Sweetney to be a star (Or a "very productive player"), I am just saying we have no reason to expect it based on his NBA career thus far. And I don't blame everybody else but him for his not being a breakout sensation yet.

I think Sweetney has some very special characteristics as a player and a person, but I think his weaknesses as a professional b-ball player have to be taken into account as well.

I think Sweetney can do something similar to what you have described if he turns over an Anthony Mason leaf...No, not screwing jailbait, why would you even think about that you sicko! I am talking about working out to such an insane degree that you scare people. Then I can see sweetney doing all kinds of stuff.

Also I think that if Sweetney develops non-pf skills like shooting, dribbling and passing, he can be a very interesting player, an x-factor if you will.

oohah