Posted by Bippity10:

Here is my post on another board, but some of it applies.

Things will remain this way for black people/poor/regular ammericans until we stop calling for group think. Until we stop voting for Democrats just because they are democrats. Until we stop voting for mayors and governors just because they are democrat or minority and start voting for people that EARN our votes through good leadership. These leaders do just enough for us to keep us happy in the short run and in the end we get screwed.

Excellent points, and I agree wholeheartedly!

We need to stop this line of logic where every black person has to think a certain way or else they are not black. Diversity of thought is what makes people great. How can we have diversity in America if we don't allow ourselves to have diveristy of opinion. Blcks should be split on whether this is racist or not. If a black person does not agree than his opinion should be respected and he should not be threatened with the "sell-out" LABEL.

If the people who say that are able to back it up with enough facts that can't be debunked, then true. But let's not forget that 400 years of dehumanization during slavery still has its effects today, in the form of self-hate. There are some that work hard to earn that "sell-out" label, and deserves the shame that goes with it.
IMO, those who don't identify with Black history, issues and culture, no matter what their ethnicity (including African-Americans), are going to be less likely observant enough to see or find facts that would lead one to that opinion about Bush & Co. than others...


That being said I definitely think there is a racial as well as a economical component to this. If you disagree I feel you are naive. There would not be a slow response in Beverly Hills. This is not new and I can't believe people are surprised by this. As blacks and poor the only way is to stop relying on govt to save us. Stop waiting for handouts. Because they will not save you(as NO has shown us). Save yourself. Do the right things to make your own money and earn an education so that you don't have to rely on the govt to save you.

Sounds real easy, but look at the educational systems of any of the areas with a significant amount of lower-income Blacks and it's plain as day why it's NOT that easy. Stop waiting for the government to save who? The goverment is supposed to save ANYONE in that disaster situation. That "Stop relying on the government" line is worn the hell out. WHat about the people that had businesses, but were still poor? Let's not start believing the stereotypes. It's the "save yourself" mentality that what's wrong with alot of people, black folks included (and as a Black man, I can't stand to see it). A neighorhood, city, state or nation can't survive when all its citizens think so selfishly.

This should be a wake up call to all of us. Make these politicians earn our votes.

True.

As for Kanye. Message to all: STOP LISTENING TO THE OPINIONS OF CELEBRITIES.I agree that there is a racial component. I don't know if Bush is racist. He may be. He may not be. He just may be a poor leader. But what I do know is that a friggin fund raiser is not the time to further your own personal agenda.

That man said what a whole lot of people were feeling at that moment, and still do. To think it was a personal agenda is pretty insensitive.

Why is it that everyone is blaming Bush when the levees have been poorly built for 30 years?

Because even with the levees in the state of disrepair you mentioned, he cut the budget. Bush is the great protector of the American people, remember?

Why are all the other non-leaders getting a pass?

Because this happened on Bush's watch, not theirs.

Is it just because people hate Bush?

Again, no. People don't agree with his policies, etc.

We never seem to get to the root of the problem. Blaming Bush is too easy.

He wants credit when he supposedly does something well, he gets the blame when American citizens die from a tragedy that was, for the most part, preventable (regarding lives lost).

If he takes the fall everything will be better? Nope. A new president will make it all better because Bush is racist? Nope. Until we turn politics into a leadership contest instead of a popularity contest, nothing will change

Should he take the blame and be held accountable when he screws up? Yup!

Nothing will change if this disaster gets swept under the rug, either.

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Posted by tkf:


fish, I am not one of these big right wind supporters, If you look at Hardcore's post above, this is the big problem I see today..

I see your view in the same light, so I guess we agree up to this point.

If bush takes the blame, that is not good enough,

No, it's not. Isn't that what those who share your views have been arguing in support of?

If bush isn't a racist then we are spinning and ignoring race,
LOL, so much for disproving that CNN poll. Bush hasn't just gotten around to earning that title after the Katrina disaster. Read up on it. No need to really go into that any further right now.

Saying all the NG is in Iraq is not true,

Please feel free to quote me on that, if that was meant for me. I don't recall anyone saying that all of any resource was in Iraq.

and the list goes on and on.

I took the opportunity to rebut the first two point on your list. Bring the rest of it.

It is sensationalism at its best, yet I am accused of spinning.

LOL Like the Black people "looting" and the White people "finding". Yeah, sensationalism at it's BEST. Spin that one 'till you're dizzy, but real is real.

To men when I read post and reactions like Hardcore it is easy to see through it.

This is Prejudice at it's best. Your main news source is Bill O'Reilly. Nothing else you say surprises me, TKF.

I see a person who hates bush,

Again, please quote me on where I said I "hate" anything not basketball-related on this site. Don't try to put words in my mouth, only to try to justify your twisted, media-fed viewpoint. I have stated my opinion of Bush and the facts I base them on. You read that as hate, maybe because all you see is hate or agree. That same "with us or against us" cowboy thinking that is common among those who usually are (often accurately) labeled as racists themselves.

is unwilling to acknowledge the past failures of previous administrations

No, I am unwilling to allow you to manipulate the discussion into a Dems vs Repubs issue when that is NOT the case.

, but will only focus on bush because it supports his hate for him and his administration..

LMAO, get this guy a Dymo machine! He's slapping his label on everyone with a fact-based opinion. It's the usual pattern, TKF. You couldn't find one thing I said in this or the other thread where I didn't explain the reasons behind the opinion. When one simply bases their opinions on facts, statement like that are not only predictable, but funny.


That is real easy to see.

It damn sure is, fella. Easy for everyone reading this thread to see.

This is why I like guys like Bill O'reilly, not because I think he supports the right, I don't care,

No, he DOES support the "right wing" . Where's the guesswork in that?

I don't spend my days following politics,

Bill O'Reilly fans usually don't... It makes 'em easier to program.

I am sports guy, but I do keep in touch with whats going on in the world, and I want someone who will at least tell the truth and give me the facts, not sensationalism, not personal agendas.

We agree on this, only thing is you're being spoon-fed the right-wing agenda, and what's scarier is that you actually like it.

Now you may feel different, but I didn't see O'reilly on TV screaming about 10,000 people dead while bush was fishing, which was misleading.

Who said this? If you're referring to the N.O. mayor's comments, that was a guess.

I didn't see O'reilly calling bush a racist or that he didn't care about blacks when during his administration

Of course, because if he wanted to call someone that, he'd have to start with the mirror.

, he has supported programs to support the poor moreso percentage wise than the previous administration. Look it up, the earned income credit refunds, veterans benefits, child nourishment programs etc... All had increases while bush was in office, but instead of being fair to the story these bush bashers will twist the story and shout and hollar all day to make bush look bad, regardless of how much they are wrong...

All Fox News will tell you are those things. All the negatives about Bush & Co. are short-circuiting your Fox News brainwave programming right now. The angry tirades have come and gone, and will probably occur again. It's only a symptom, one of the first in the deprogramming process. Don't worry.

When bush is gone, I think that will be a good thing, but man I get sick of the irresponsible finger pointing, misleading diatribes, and personal agendas..

...and those are the VERY reasons so many people want Bush out of office too!

And I don't need fox news to see that!!!

Nope, because sheep can follow the Fox News flock all on their own!

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 09-13-2005 11:07 PM]

b]Please feel free to quote me on that, if that was meant for me. I don't recall anyone saying that all of any resource was in Iraq.

hahaha.. ok well lets see, this is your post here.. Also, had those states not had their NG and other resources shipped off to Iraq for that pitiful farce of a "war", maybe they would have been better aboe to provide the kind of help that they were requesting from the fed. gov't days before the hurricane hit N.O.[/b]

so what is it? are some of the NG in Iraq? are all? you see you make such a vague post because it makes your argument look better. If all the national guard was not in iraq then what is the purpose of that statement? Are you telling me that is why gov blanco didn't send the NG in right away? because the rest were in iraq and if we can't send all why send any in to help the people in NO? I mean what is your point?

you say I slap labels on people yet you are so quick to label me and bush, and you label O'reilly as a racist, with no proof I am sure. But again you will say you didn't say that, but your post cleary embellishes that, just semantics. Again I have no need to make this a democrat vs Republican war, if you had read my post closely I have said I want bush out of office, and I said I like clinton better, look back and read, read!! I said that already. you have no argument here. you try to divert, you have an agenda and you try to discredit fox (as if I care) with nothing but accusations of being right wing, yet you have not disputed any facts they have,again I am on the side of right, weither it be fox,cnn, cnbc, etc whatever man, when will you get that?.. you say fox told me about bush supporting programs, go look it up for yourself, you will find the same info, weither it be fox reporting it, cnn, cnbc the numbers are still the same.

LOL Like the Black people "looting" and the White people "finding". Yeah, sensationalism at it's BEST. Spin that one 'till you're dizzy, but real is real

.

haha, what does this have to do with bush? again you are reaching and really seem to have another agenda.. this is going nowhere. again as I suspected...

peace..



[Edited by - tkf on 09-14-2005 02:10 AM]

Posted by toodarkmark:

In 1999 Clinton got a memo from the CIA that there was going to be a terrorist attack in LAX and called a meeting right away of the FBI, CIA and the LAPD and they stopped a bomber from boarding a plane. When G W Bush got a memo Osama Bin Ladin was going to attack NYC with a terrorist attack involving planes, he went fishing.

You cant even begin to compare the two. CLinton got his knob rubbed, G W Bush is going to be remembered as the idiot who brought down the American Empire. In history books, Bush will be looked at as one of the worst, evil leaders in human history. Most of the world already sees him as a Hitler or a Stalin. Go travel and see if thats true. But you wont travel or really find out what people think or know. Youre just concerned about being a sheep waiting to be led to your slaughter.

Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:

Posted by fishmike:

Bush is a great president and a great leader. When its said and done his 8 years will speak for itself.

Fishmike, although I think I know how you meant this, it actually is true, at least the end part. ANY Presidency is judged after the fact. So far, we know Clinton did nothing to curb terrorism. How about those documents Berger stufed in his pants and got his hands slapped for??!!

I know....the door is ajar.

Where to start with this one? Obviously you are way biased, so I will not try and "convert" you. You speak of the 1999 Clinton and preventing the LA thing. Did you even KNOW that the only reason we found out about the attack was because of a conscientious Canadian border patrol guy? I bet not.

Where was Clinton after the first WTC? Where was he on countless of bombings and attacks overseas on American Embasssies and ships? Do I have to bring up Mogadishu to you? Answer the question what was Berger stuffing down his pants? Did it have to do with Abel Danger? Did it have to do with hufge MISTAKES by Clinton's folks? What about bombing an Aspirin factory during his BlowJob coverup? Please he is no different. I recall he and his people ACTUALLY saying he wishes he could have had a tragedy like 911 in his adminsitration so he could act on it his way!!! My GOD!

You see this is exactly what I mean, when I say that some of you believe things started only on 1.21.01!

FIshmike, you brought up other things our govt has done to feed terrorists and support them. Most of it is true. But I don't see them in a vacuum. The US has always done things in its best interest at the time. In Afghanistan, we supported the Muhjadeen because they were fighting the RED commies, just a few years after Vietnam! What do you expect? Do you think we expected to give birth to OSama? Was that the plan? Then the US supported Saddam and gave him weapons to fight IRAN, who by the way, had just overthrown our puppet the SHAH and got radical ISLAM on the world. Do you remember the hostages? This ALL happened under Jimmy Carter, by far the worse President in history, IMO.

As for the Stalin and Hitler references, do you even know of what EVIL you speak? Stalin and Hitler killed MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people. Please tell me you are just repeating the lines of the wacko left and you really don't understand the implications of what you say. If you really do believe that, then I will just say, go read some history about the horriffic acts those two committed on their own people and the world!

Two things about the timelines. The one, Hardcore originally posted here is so obviously biased, we need not discuss it further. The second one on WIKPEDIA, does a better job yet still focuses on the actions of one man rather than the actions of the local govt officals who after all ARE ALWAYS THE ONES IN CHARGE of EFFORTS AFTER A NATURAL DISASTER. Where is the seond by second reporting of what Blanco did and what her HS security chief Landreau was doing? For instance, telling the RED CROSS NOT TO BRING SUPPLIES to the SUPERDOME????

Also, Go read how Florida dealt with things after 4 hurricanes last year. Should BUSH get credit for all the things going right then? By the way FEMA got there about the same time then too. The difference is that LOCAL govt did ITS job much better!

Listen for the final time, was Bush late on realizing how bad this was? Yes. Did the people HE put in charge not take care of it like they are supposed to? Yes. Did local and State officials screw up too? YES. Is New Orleans under sea LEVEl? Yes. DId that have more to do with what happened than racism? Yes. Do you all see how the MSM made this a devisive issue rather than what it needed to be?Do you think it manipulates us in other ways too? I do.

Hardcore the whole NG issue is a farce being levied by those in the MSM. Who controls the NG in Natural Disaster events? The governor. SHe had 8000 out of 11000 LA NG troops here in the state. She did not call for martial law and she did not call them in soon enough.

This was a NATURAL DISASTER. Nothing was going to stop the storm from coming. Planning at ALL LEVELS was in place and some relief was there. Things failed. Bureacracy got in the way. Lets make govt bigger now.....LOL!

THIS IS A SYSTEMATIC PROBLEM!! CAPITALISM MEANS PROFITS OVER PEOPLE!!! MONEY FOR OIL WARS IN IRAQ AND NO MONEY FOR CONSTRUCTION THAT WOULD HAVE SAVED LIVES!!!! THIS DISASTER IS JUST PART OF THE AMERICAN WAY AND IT IS BIGGER THAN GEORGE BUSH, BILL CLINTON, REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS!!! WE HAVE A RULING CLASS WHOSE PROFITS TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, EVERY TIME AND TWICE ON SUNDAY!!!!!

Wow that almost sounded like a cry for socialism. I agree that govt failed the people. I agree that govt did not do their jobs. But I think we also failed ourselves. We elected these "leaders". Where was the public outcry before the storm, about the levies. Unless you were from New Orleans or well read most of us did not care or even know about the levies. If politicians needed to fix the levies in order to gain votes they would have done it. But the voters of New Orleans did not make this a priority either. There were no picket lines. There were no demonstrations. We were all complacent and instead of forcing govt to fix things we relied on them to do it on their own. We vote based on popularity and race and other non-sensical things and are slowly losing true leadership because of it. All forms of gov't have corruption. In our form we can at least have some say in fixing it at the polls. But unfortunately we have become complacent.


[Edited by - killa4luv on 09-14-2005 10:13 AM]

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

LOL Like the Black people "looting" and the White people "finding". Yeah, sensationalism at it's BEST. Spin that one 'till you're dizzy, but real is real

haha, what does this have to do with bush? again you are reaching and really seem to have another agenda.. this is going nowhere. again as I suspected...

We were discussing the media as well. That reference was directed at that. Keep up with the convo. LOL Why doen't it surprise me that you aren't? It's typical from those who keep bantering in the same circle.

again you miss the point. I am not saying that the media did not or has not in the past portrayed blacks in a negative light, that is proven and the example of looting and finding is typical, but that is not the argument. Hey man put any thing you may have against bush aside man, for the sake of fairness, because you are reaching here man. When someone says that bush was on vacation doing nothing while thousand died is wrong and misleading and it is then validated by the extreme left wing media, politicians, supporters and haters alike. Just like it is being done here.that is not fair. that is when it is wrong, and if a democrat was in office, it would still be wrong.. that is the point... perpetuating lies and misleading to support ones agenda is wrong.

When the media does that and it is validated by anyone, non bush supporters, left wing extremest it is wrong and it is a cheap shot at the president.. saying that black people are looting and white people are finding is also wrong and unfair, but has nothing to do with bush or this conversation. If the you agree that the media is unfairly portraying blacks in this disaster, which I agree they are doing, then why can't you agree that the same thing is happenning to bush and being validated by bush haters?