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is it fair to say this about the marbury trade
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fishmike
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8/31/2005  2:49 PM
like I said RV.. out of the box. Take the toiletpaper roll down from your eye and notice a broader picture.

I'm not talking about use getting KMart, rather a player LIKE Kmart as someone's point was "what bigtime FAs have switched teams" and the answer was some big ones but many more very usefull players. Its a market that the Knicks will not be participating in any time soon with Rose and Jerome James in the mix. Had we avoided those 2 players we could have had the OPTION to trade MArbury IF IT MADE SENSE.

Your shopping in a store that only carried one kind of good. Wouldnt it be nice to shop somewhere where there's more OPTIONS?

Get it? I know its hard to grasp something is possible if Isiah hasnt thought or done it already
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
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8/31/2005  2:52 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Since the lakers (two collective bargain's and a strike year away) signed shaq, can you name one successfull scenario where a team with cap room made it TO the dance after signing a bonafide Free Agent?

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-31-2005 2:45 PM]
yes.. Detroit won a title and in the offseason before they had cap space. The Spurs had cap space which they chose to use on Nesterovich. Detroit, Spurs, Lakers... actually ALL the teams that have won the dance have HAD cap space.

Any other questions?


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
rvhoss
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8/31/2005  2:59 PM
What big name did they sign? You guys keep giving me a correlation.
So, there is no way for the knicks to ever win a championship unless they are under the cap.
Or, the fact that at one time we HAD cap space count?

I just need some solid examples, because you're sound more and more like a wind bag with these claims that there is no way to win without getting under the cap.

Like I said, the lakers did it 2 CBA's ago and the orlando shaq to laker thing was a sham because shaq forced that deal like JJ did out of phoenix.
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by rvhoss:

Since the lakers (two collective bargain's and a strike year away) signed shaq, can you name one successfull scenario where a team with cap room made it TO the dance after signing a bonafide Free Agent?

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-31-2005 2:45 PM]
yes.. Detroit won a title and in the offseason before they had cap space. The Spurs had cap space which they chose to use on Nesterovich. Detroit, Spurs, Lakers... actually ALL the teams that have won the dance have HAD cap space.

Any other questions?




[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-31-2005 3:01 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
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8/31/2005  3:02 PM
Weren't they already back to back 50 win teams? then they got Larry brown? OK, you are right, that's just like us..ZEKE, you idiot...why are we still over the cap!?!?!?
Detroit won a title and in the offseason before they had cap space.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-31-2005 3:03 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
fishmike
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8/31/2005  3:09 PM
again RV.. your incredibily rigid thinking keeps you from being able to see anything.

Every team thats won a title in the last 15+ years has managed the cap or had space and drafted a star that they were built around.

So in your in the box world the Knicks will NEVER win a title because they do neither. Is that how it works for you?

The Spurs used their cap space for Nesterovich and Manu Ginobili. They also made legit runs at Jason Kidd and Jermaine Oneil.

Detoit had cap space twice. They looked at their OPTIONS and chose to resign Rasheed Wallace rather than use it on Okur or other FAs. They advanced to game 7 of the NBA finals if you didnt watch.

The Lakers used space to sign Shaq, and are getting themselves in position to be $25mm under the cap in 2 years from now so they have OPTIONS.

Still with me?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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8/31/2005  3:12 PM
RV.. you asked me a question regarding cap space and teams winning a title. My guess is you were hoping the 2 didnt go hand in hand, but clearly they do. Now your pissing in the wind with comments like this.

Its pretty obvious the elite teams draft well and manage the cap. Hopefully we draft well, but we sure as hell dont manage the cap. Its a legit beef with solid evidence to back up the points. Sorry if that stressed you out

Weren't they already back to back 50 win teams? then they got Larry brown? OK, you are right, that's just like us..ZEKE, you idiot...why are we still over the cap!?!?!?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  3:20 PM
Posted by fishmike:
The Lakers signed Shaq; the Wizards signed Arenas; the Nuggets signed Miller; the Heat signed Odom; the Jazz signed Boozer; Cleveland has now signed Redd.
Add KMart, Bobby Simmons, Steve Nash (MVP), Q, Joe Johnson... how far back do you want to go? Rich, great points. Some of these guys are totally incapable of thinking outside the box and understanding that more options = more options. Image what our team would look like right now with KMart as PF, instead of whoever wins that job.

You use the cap, use the exceptions, use low level FAs and use the draft to get better. So far we have used the draft and thats about it. I'm glad we got that right, I really am. Its just not enough IMO.
So we're gonna change our rebuilding strategy to get a player like Andre Miller or Bobby Simmons? Okay I'm *totally* persuaded now! Why not just pull off more Marbury-type trades? He's much better than nearly all of (if not all of) the FAs you listed.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-31-2005 3:29 PM]
rvhoss
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8/31/2005  3:21 PM
I know, even when I reread my post I'm like "what the hell are you saying". I'm catching the flu or something...ignore my posts from today.
all kool aid all the time.
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  3:30 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I know, even when I reread my post I'm like "what the hell are you saying". I'm catching the flu or something...ignore my posts from today.
Just wear it as a badge of honor when someone can't comment on your content and uses lame terms to describe you like "dumb"; "unable to think outside the box"
Pharzeone
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8/31/2005  10:00 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by fishmike:

Rich he could still have done that, but Rose and JJ killed it. If not for those 2 we would have been just around the cap for 07. That would give us the option to dump Marbury for any expiring deal and have about $15-$18mm in cap space to work with. I think thats very feasible.


I'd like to see some stats or research into the movement of all-star type talent. Trades vs free agent movement. By which route do all-stars move from teams to teams?

If I am the GM of NY I would have to think hard about IF my organization/season ticket holders/fan would really allow me to rebuild through the draft and by getting under the cap. My GUESS is that the answer is NO. Peer pressure, fiscal pressure, media scrutiny. There is just too much money that pours in from sponsors, tickets, jerseys, etc that it would be too much to take a dive for more than 2 years, and that really doesn't allow for "cap gaining".

To make a trade for all-star talent you have to be able to give up some goods. Talent, bigs, expiring contracts, reasonable contracts. Call it the Shaq trade equivalency - Miami needed to give up some to get an all-star, and so would NY. Didn't we trade for Nazr in part to make him better and trade him? Can't that be the same for Big Game? If we trade for an all-star big we surely have to be able to give up some halfway solid bigs in return, whether it be JJ or Frye or both. Think of the signing in terms of that angle, and the JJ pursuit is not that bad.

No need to do much research Martin, just take the Mets for example. You always hear about how fans wanted that team to build within its farm system like the 96 Yankees and they will support them. Well just ask Wilpon how did it translate into ticket sales. You get all-stars and people show up. It is easy to say rebuild. I give people in Chicago more credit they stuck with the Bulls for as long as they reasonable could. In NY "fans" are more likely to jump ship. Competing markets in a large but limited fan base. Knicks stink, I will just go to a Yankee game. Mets stink well I get Yankee tickets. Since people are on a limited budget who can blame them. The Giants are probably the only team in this area that can rebuild as much as they like but the other teams ... You already see it now with the Yankees, acquiring all-star players every season not so much to just try and win but to continue to be really marketable. Marbury's jersey was like top 3 seller last year. I mean that's really all you need to know what "business" sense it makes.
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rojasmas
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8/31/2005  11:34 PM
The only reason the Marbury trade got done was because we took the package deal with Penny and we have been stuck with his dead a** for way too long and way too much money. It isn't Marbury's fault but that $$$ baggage has stopped a lot of other moves we could have made in the last couple of years. No other team in the world would have taken Penny/Marbury under those terms.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  11:40 PM
that $$$ baggage has stopped a lot of other moves we could have made in the last couple of years.
What moves did Penny stop the team from making?
knicks1248
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9/1/2005  8:28 AM
How did we sign Allan Houston, Larry Johnson, and chris childs in 97.

However or whenever, we haven't been close to that much cap since, and mind you, we weren't in the eastern conf basement prior to that.

ES
rojasmas
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9/1/2005  8:24 PM
Penny is the worst of many bad signings that has put us in salary cap hell. What maneuverability did we have to acquire big name free agents since he has been here, along with his salary? He isn't alone on the list of course. Houston and TT would be driving the bus with Penny.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Marv
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9/1/2005  8:29 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

No other team in the world would have taken Penny/Marbury under those terms.

You're probably right. But for this team at that point in time and with their new GM I think it was the right move. I still don't know what to believe about the stories that this trade was originally being engineered by Layden. I just can't imagine he would haave parted with his beloved Vujanic and Lampe nor can I picture him being willing to give up more #1 picks after blowing the Nene pick.
rojasmas
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9/1/2005  8:32 PM
Houston was our own player so we were allowed to pay him more. Larry Johnson was before Houston and the other big salaries so there was room to acquire him, but he was a lousy signing too. We should have realized he was damaged goods with his back before we signed him. He was a shell of his former self when he became a Knick.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Marv
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9/1/2005  8:39 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

Houston was our own player so we were allowed to pay him more. Larry Johnson was before Houston and the other big salaries so there was room to acquire him, but he was a lousy signing too. We should have realized he was damaged goods with his back before we signed him. He was a shell of his former self when he became a Knick.

Yeah but remember how badly Mason had worn out his welcome by then? He had to go, and I thought LJ was a pretty fair swap for him at that point.
rojasmas
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9/1/2005  8:44 PM
Yeah I know, but man we overpaid at the time for LJ. I don't even remember the numbers. Still, he was involved in some classic games and I will always remember Alonzo and him duking it out! And if he didn't hurt his back, he could have been as good as Barkley.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Marv
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9/1/2005  8:56 PM
Yeah he had a real crazy contract, huge. And you're right - he was insanely good before his back went bad.
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is it fair to say this about the marbury trade
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