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knicks1248
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8/18/2005  6:38 PM
btw, to the poster who thinks that potential star calibre players are only drafted in the top 5 picks, do the names Kobe Bryant (#13), Tracy McGrady (#9), Jermaine O'Neal (#17), Amare Stoudamire (#9), Dirk Nowitzki (#9), Steve Nash (#15), Paul Pierce (#10), Ron Artest (#16), Clyde Drexler (#14), Bernard King (#7), Karl Malone (#13), John Stockton (#16) & Julius Erving (#12) among others ring a bell? Coincidentally all those guys were taken later than the #5 overall pick in their drafts.


Besides Kobe, which one of those players have a ring with the team that drafted them. And even when they got traded there previous team still didn't win squat.

Lets get this straight, I'm not totally knocking IT picks, because he has a proven track record. But all his picks get traded after there rookie contract ends. IT has a knack for picking athletic, high jumping, speedy players. But none of them come into the league with any, and I mean any kind of basketball IQ, there just strickly players with upside and talant.

He's an athletic freak lover, thats why he traded for TT, nazy, steph ,and JC,
These players have lots of talant and really don't know how to defend or play fundamental basketball, plus there pretty much all selfish players. Same goes for Tmac, camby, stodimire ect.
ES
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Killa4luv
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8/18/2005  7:18 PM
Posted by TMS:

btw, to the poster who thinks that potential star calibre players are only drafted in the top 5 picks, do the names Kobe Bryant (#13), Tracy McGrady (#9), Jermaine O'Neal (#17), Amare Stoudamire (#9), Dirk Nowitzki (#9), Steve Nash (#15), Paul Pierce (#10), Ron Artest (#16), Clyde Drexler (#14), Bernard King (#7), Karl Malone (#13), John Stockton (#16) & Julius Erving (#12) among others ring a bell? Coincidentally all those guys were taken later than the #5 overall pick in their drafts.

no one's saying there's any guarantees Gerald Green will be a star player...but most scouts were touting him as having bigger upside potential than Channing Frye...Isiah took the safe bet & took the player he felt could contribute right away...i would have preferred taking the risk of going after the player w/the bigger star potential.
are you saying that because Green is said to have star power and Channing is said not to, that we should have drafted him?

And whats your point about stars being drafted out of the top 5? It happens, but lightning also strikes twice sometimes. Drafting is not an exact science, but those top 5 picks are usually good players at worst. Gerald Green is an unknown quantity and for all of that star potential, he could be a bust.


jaydh
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8/18/2005  7:38 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

So, I'm going to stake my claim that Ariza is the star to build around. And I am fully willing ot accept responsibility should he fall on his face.

i agree with you, there is just something special about him.
Nalod
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8/18/2005  8:03 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by rvhoss:

So, I'm going to stake my claim that Ariza is the star to build around. And I am fully willing ot accept responsibility should he fall on his face.

i agree with you, there is just something special about him.


Yes, he is the chosen golden child.
nixluva
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8/18/2005  11:14 PM
Posted by TMS:

i've stated numerous times i was very happy w/Isiah's picks of Trevor Ariza, Nate Rob & David Lee...i don't remember mentioning any of those guys in this discussion, yet you & the others insist on bringing them up in the conversation to cast your labels once again...it's a comedy act around here lately.

i maintain that my gut feeling says that Gerald Green will be a better player than Channing Frye over the long haul, & i wish Isiah wouldn't have passed him up...that doesn't mean i'm questioning all of his other draft choices.

no one's saying there's any guarantees Gerald Green will be a star player...but most scouts were touting him as having bigger upside potential than Channing Frye...Isiah took the safe bet & took the player he felt could contribute right away...i would have preferred taking the risk of going after the player w/the bigger star potential.

Well you're not the only person I was refering too, but lets talk about Frye:

"Frye was a four-year starter at Arizona, where he scored 1,789 points and grabbed 975 rebounds. As a senior he averaged 15.8 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocked shots, shooting 55.4 percent from the field and 83 percent from the foul line. Some of his best games were against his best opponents: 19 points and nine rebounds against Utah's Andrew Bogut, 18 and 16 against Mississippi State's Lawrence Roberts, 20 and 13 against Stanford's Matt Haryasz.

Frye's stock probably started its ascent in the NCAA Tournament, where in four games he averaged 15.5 points, 9.8 rebounds and 4.3 blocks, and shot 65 percent from the floor. It continued last week in Chicago, where Frye hoisted 185 pounds on the bench press 19 times -- seven more than burly Sean May, and only two less than monstrous Ike Diogu."

cbs.sportsline.com/colleg...ry/8584673

Frye showed throughout his career that he steps up in the big games. You can't minimize that fact. More often that not he showed up and met the challenge.

Frye in the NCAA's:
Against Utah St. 17pts, 10 reb, 5blks
Against UAB 6pts, 7reb, 3blks & 3asts
Against Oklahoma St 15pts, 10reb, 3blks & 4asts
Against Illinois 24pts, 12reb, 6blks

So while some can only look at things from a negative perspective, almost out of habit, I like to think that i'm using logic to base my opinion on.

1. Zeke has proven to be a fine talent evaluator
2. Despite what people like to think Frye does still have upside
3. We needed a player with size, skill and a defensive presence
4. He's yet another confident, smart, coachable and talented young player on this roster.
5. Frye really wanted to be here and seems eager for the challenge of NY, not everyone is

Now as for Green, he's YEARS away from being a player we can rely on. We don't know how he'll respond in pressure situations against bigtime competition, tho we can hope he has what it takes. He would have probably rode the bench for a while with LB being the coach. Comparing him to Frye, its clear that Frye will be of far more use to this team over the next 3-4 years than Green would have been. IF Green turns out to be a great player, great for him and the team he plays for, but it still made sense to go for Frye at that point in the draft, cuz he's much more of a sure thing.

toodarkmark
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8/18/2005  11:34 PM
I would rather Isiah had picked Gerald Green, but we need production now. If Gerald is a star 3 years down the line, 17 teams will be kicking themselves. If Channing in his second year for us starts at center, gets 9 pts, 7 rbds, and 2 blocks, I say its a good pick. Hopefully we swing a trade for a start PF. Here's to Corey Maggette blowing out his knee!
I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
TMS
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8/19/2005  12:22 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

Dr. J was drafted #12 while he was still playing in the ABA (I think) and that's the only reason he was drafted number 12, he never played for the bucks and was traded to the nets.

EDIT: the TMS v. RvHoss feud is getting old...I've decided to end it by deleting any non basketball related text.

We cool?

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-18-2005 11:21 AM]

there was never any feud other than the one you may have imagined...i don't come here to battle against certain posters...i post my opinion & if i disagree w/someone else, i let them know...there's never anything personal against you or anyone else here for that matter...i don't post here to be liked or to make friends (though i've developed alot of respect for certain posters who i've been posting w/the past 4 years & made some good friends along the way)...i'm going to agree w/u on certain topics & i'm sure we'll argue about certain others...doesn't mean either 1 of us cares about this team any more than the other...we're all true blue knick fans here from the most pessimistic to the most optimistic one among us, otherwise we wouldn't be wasting our time posting on this forum to begin with.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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8/19/2005  12:28 AM
Posted by knicks1248:
btw, to the poster who thinks that potential star calibre players are only drafted in the top 5 picks, do the names Kobe Bryant (#13), Tracy McGrady (#9), Jermaine O'Neal (#17), Amare Stoudamire (#9), Dirk Nowitzki (#9), Steve Nash (#15), Paul Pierce (#10), Ron Artest (#16), Clyde Drexler (#14), Bernard King (#7), Karl Malone (#13), John Stockton (#16) & Julius Erving (#12) among others ring a bell? Coincidentally all those guys were taken later than the #5 overall pick in their drafts.


Besides Kobe, which one of those players have a ring with the team that drafted them. And even when they got traded there previous team still didn't win squat.

Lets get this straight, I'm not totally knocking IT picks, because he has a proven track record. But all his picks get traded after there rookie contract ends. IT has a knack for picking athletic, high jumping, speedy players. But none of them come into the league with any, and I mean any kind of basketball IQ, there just strickly players with upside and talant.

He's an athletic freak lover, thats why he traded for TT, nazy, steph ,and JC,
These players have lots of talant and really don't know how to defend or play fundamental basketball, plus there pretty much all selfish players. Same goes for Tmac, camby, stodimire ect.


i don't understand the point you're trying to make since none of Isiah's past picks have won any championship rings either...it's just my personal preference...i would have preferred if the Knicks drafted Gerald Green, because i think he'll be a star someday...i never once said Isiah wasn't a good judge of talent (he obviously is since he got us Ariza & Nate Rob), but let's not get carried away just because he drafted Damon Stoudamire, Marcus Camby & T-Mac...he also passed up some other very good players in taking those guys as well...the draft is a crap shoot, as everyone knows...but IMHO, the Knicks needed to swing for the fences & go after that potential franchise level star, rather than going the safe route & taking the player who could contribute right away...i don't see us winning any titles in the next 3 years regardless, so why not go after the bigger potential? that's how i look at it...you're entitled to have your own views on this too.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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8/19/2005  12:30 AM
Posted by nixluva:

So while some can only look at things from a negative perspective, almost out of habit, I like to think that i'm using logic to base my opinion on.

because i have a different view as to the direction this team should have gone w/in the draft, you classify that as having a negative perspective? why is that? i want the Knicks to win a championship just as much as you do...how is that being negative? you guys need to stop throwing around that label so freely & ignoring exactly what me & some others are actually trying to say...we're not knocking IT for the hell of it...we simply disagree w/some of his personnel moves...why that's so hard a concept to understand i have no idea.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-19-2005 12:32 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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8/19/2005  12:37 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by TMS:

btw, to the poster who thinks that potential star calibre players are only drafted in the top 5 picks, do the names Kobe Bryant (#13), Tracy McGrady (#9), Jermaine O'Neal (#17), Amare Stoudamire (#9), Dirk Nowitzki (#9), Steve Nash (#15), Paul Pierce (#10), Ron Artest (#16), Clyde Drexler (#14), Bernard King (#7), Karl Malone (#13), John Stockton (#16) & Julius Erving (#12) among others ring a bell? Coincidentally all those guys were taken later than the #5 overall pick in their drafts.

no one's saying there's any guarantees Gerald Green will be a star player...but most scouts were touting him as having bigger upside potential than Channing Frye...Isiah took the safe bet & took the player he felt could contribute right away...i would have preferred taking the risk of going after the player w/the bigger star potential.
are you saying that because Green is said to have star power and Channing is said not to, that we should have drafted him?

And whats your point about stars being drafted out of the top 5? It happens, but lightning also strikes twice sometimes. Drafting is not an exact science, but those top 5 picks are usually good players at worst. Gerald Green is an unknown quantity and for all of that star potential, he could be a bust.

yes, that's exactly what i'm saying.

& you misread my post...i'm not the one saying you need a top 5 pick to get a star player...& of course Green could be a bust...just like anyone else picked in this draft & any other...i was 1 of the guys on this forum who was "crying" for the team to tank the season in order to get Lebron James a couple years ago while posters were saying Lebron could be a bust & all hype too...my philosophy is you go for the best upside in any draft...if you prefer going after the safer picks every year, that's your prerogative...i don't have a problem w/that...don't see why you should have a problem w/it either.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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8/19/2005  1:58 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nixluva:

So while some can only look at things from a negative perspective, almost out of habit, I like to think that i'm using logic to base my opinion on.

because i have a different view as to the direction this team should have gone w/in the draft, you classify that as having a negative perspective? why is that? i want the Knicks to win a championship just as much as you do...how is that being negative? you guys need to stop throwing around that label so freely & ignoring exactly what me & some others are actually trying to say...we're not knocking IT for the hell of it...we simply disagree w/some of his personnel moves...why that's so hard a concept to understand i have no idea.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-19-2005 12:32 AM]

Again my response was not aimed solely at you. I think your view is more reasonable, I don't agree with it, but its not without merit. I just don't like reading how some make it sound like this team is a mess and IT doesn't have a plan, we need to start getting rid of all these players yadda, yadda. Its silly really.

Green is the main guy that some use to say Frye was a poor choice, there are others, but mainly they bring up the potential upside of Green and how high its supposed to be. I think they're missing the point of why Frye was a smart pick for this team.

1. Guys that can score alot don't necessarily bring titles. There's more to it than that.
2. From what i've seen having a team that fits and works well together is far more important than having an All Star Guard or Forward. It would be great to have both, but if you are in the Knicks position you have to go for a Big man who you know has a solid level of ability and can help you.
3. Green and LeBron are 2 totally different situations. They can't be compared and expectations for Green have to be somewhat lower at this point. Its gonna take years before we really know what he is. Highlight dunks is nice for now but in the NBA we know that doesn't really win games.

With Frye at least we know he can fill a void we have on this team. We have to remember this is not the end of improvements we'll be making to this team, its just the beginning. This is year 7 of the Bulls rebuild and they have finally returned to the playoffs. We will likely do it this season.

I often read that guys wanted us to lose big so we could draft a top player, but lets not forget that its a lottery and you aren't guaranteed to get that top pick. There have been enough upsets in that dept. to prove that point.


TMS
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8/19/2005  2:20 AM
that's fair, but again, my entire philosophy is to go for the gusto when we have the chance...i certainly hope the Knicks aren't in the position to draft a high lottery pick year after year (because that means they'll be a torture to watch), but when we have those picks i want them to take advantage of it & draft the player w/the biggest upside...supporting role players can be had via the MLE just about every year IF you use it wisely, & if you get lucky you can land a few w/some sleeper picks like IT did w/Ariza for example...

btw, my aim wasn't to compare Green to Lebron...obviously Lebron was the consensus top pick for the sheer talent he displayed all throughout his HS years...but believe it or not, there were doubters on this forum as well as on others as to whether or not he'd ever fulfill the amount of hype he was being built up with in the media...i think he exceeded all expectations...players like him come along once in a generation, & even if there were no guarantees that the Knicks would have won that pick, i still say it would have been best had we at least taken a shot at it, rather than winning some meaningless games & ending up w/a not so great draft position...our ultimate goal is to win a title, is it not? i'm not of the Dolan mindset to merely make the postseason every year & sell tickets...i've seen this team do that for a while now & it's just not good enough for me anymore...i want to celebrate a championship for this team in the Canyon of Heroes...to do that, i feel we need a legitimate franchise star to build this team around...Marbury won't be that calibre a player in another 3-4 years, & i don't see this team winning one at their current pace before then either, which is why i go for the kid Green over Frye.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/19/2005  6:24 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:
Posted by knicksavvy:

Now that we know that IT knows what he is doing it's time for all knick fan to cool out and wait for a very possible exciting season. I don't know what it is but it seems like some of the so called Knick fans on this bourd is waiting and wanting for IT to fail so they can call him incompentant.... But every thing that IT has done has been thought out and planned... Yes some have failed... More has been successful No we have not won yet But give the Man some TIME

Don't worry, the anal whiners only represent a small percentage of posters here. They just post more than the ones who analyze situations instead of having the usual knee-jerk reactions.

The ones that want Isiah to fail are not fans. They are haters and are handled accordingly. There are too many real fans with clear views that don't let hate like that fly at all. Lately, even some of those fakers have been coming to their senses. Optimism is a powerful thing!

As you participate more on this board, you'll learn who the priceless true-blue fans and the worthless hypocrites are. Just stand by what you say, and root hard for our KNICKS!

Welcome aboard.


[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 08-17-2005 10:17 PM]


You mean people like yourself?

When I said REAL FANS, hell friggin yeah!

"The Knicks announce..."

Hardcore (5 seconds after he hears about it): That's a great move!! Isiah is really the Messiah and we're going to win the championship this year!!

That's right, since Isiah has been making some of the best moves around here in a LONG time. This team is finally moving in the right direction- towards winning.
Compared to folks like LayDown, Isiah Thomas IS a messiah.


Someone has to be optimistic, Isles. If we all viewed the Knicks like you do, we'd all be Nets fans, just like you.



[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 08-19-2005 06:25 AM]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
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