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gunsnewing
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7/31/2005  4:02 PM
eric snow, george lynch & Aaron Mckie were not guys who knew how to get it done before Larry Brown coached them. I see no reason why Larry Brown won't do the same with Ariza, frye, james, jyd, lee & co
AUTOADVERT
nixluva
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7/31/2005  4:33 PM
I don't think IT should get the blame for these guys not even trying to play D. He brought in the players, but they have to start being held accountable for what they do on the court. He's brought in atheltic players who should be able to move well enough to play D. That is why it was so HUGE that he brought in LB. LB will NEVER tolerate any of the crap that went on last year.

Lets not jump on IT, cuz I think he's done a GREAT job with this team so far and he's not finished yet. How much do you expect any human to be able to do in less than 2 full seasons? Its practically a miracle how he's turned this thing around. Forget about last years failure, this team is right now more talented and closer to winning than they were when he got here and now he has the coach to pull it all together.

Bobs3304, you seem to be overlooking the impact that LB has had on all of his teams. i don't really give as much credit to the lineup of his teams as I do to his coaching, cuz no matter what team he's coached they've instantly improved on D in his 1st year and even more in the 2nd year. Even the dang Clippers played D under him. He's just a great coach and knows what he's doing. Steph & JC CAN play D, maybe not flat out shut down D, but good enough to win games. Then we'll have our defensive specialists on the floor at times to really tighten up tthe screws on opponents.

From day one the whole team will know that they HAVE to 1st play D, 2nd SHARE the call 2nd and 3rd REBOUND. Those simple things are all he cares about. To me we won't have to make too many changes in order to do that. We will probably just add a player he likes but not anything huge in the way of changes right now.
gunsnewing
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7/31/2005  4:39 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I don't think IT should get the blame for these guys not even trying to play D. He brought in the players, but they have to start being held accountable for what they do on the court. He's brought in atheltic players who should be able to move well enough to play D. That is why it was so HUGE that he brought in LB. LB will NEVER tolerate any of the crap that went on last year.

Lets not jump on IT, cuz I think he's done a GREAT job with this team so far and he's not finished yet. How much do you expect any human to be able to do in less than 2 full seasons? Its practically a miracle how he's turned this thing around. Forget about last years failure, this team is right now more talented and closer to winning than they were when he got here and now he has the coach to pull it all together.

Bobs3304, you seem to be overlooking the impact that LB has had on all of his teams. i don't really give as much credit to the lineup of his teams as I do to his coaching, cuz no matter what team he's coached they've instantly improved on D in his 1st year and even more in the 2nd year. Even the dang Clippers played D under him. He's just a great coach and knows what he's doing. Steph & JC CAN play D, maybe not flat out shut down D, but good enough to win games. Then we'll have our defensive specialists on the floor at times to really tighten up tthe screws on opponents.

From day one the whole team will know that they HAVE to 1st play D, 2nd SHARE the call 2nd and 3rd REBOUND. Those simple things are all he cares about. To me we won't have to make too many changes in order to do that. We will probably just add a player he likes but not anything huge in the way of changes right now.

good post, well said
bobs3304
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7/31/2005  4:50 PM
I disagree. You're giving Larry too much credit. He's a great teacher, but he's not a magician. He makes his players get the best out of themselves...IF THEY'RE WILLING TO DO ADJUST AND ADAPT... WHICH I DON'T THINK CRAWFORD AND MAYBE EVEN MARBURY CAN.

[Edited by - BOBS3304 on 07/31/2005 16:50:52]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
joec32033
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7/31/2005  4:52 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

I disagree. You're giving Larry too much credit. He's a great teacher, but he's not a magician. He makes his players get the best out of themselves...IF THEY'RE WILLING TO DO ADJUST AND ADAPT... WHICH I DON'T THINK CRAWFORD AND MAYBE EVEN MARBURY CAN.

[Edited by - BOBS3304 on 07/31/2005 16:50:52]

Not for Anything but if he can get Iverson to adapt, I think he can get Marbury to, also.
~You can't run from who you are.~
gunsnewing
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7/31/2005  4:56 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by bobs3304:

I disagree. You're giving Larry too much credit. He's a great teacher, but he's not a magician. He makes his players get the best out of themselves...IF THEY'RE WILLING TO DO ADJUST AND ADAPT... WHICH I DON'T THINK CRAWFORD AND MAYBE EVEN MARBURY CAN.

[Edited by - BOBS3304 on 07/31/2005 16:50:52]

Not for Anything but if he can get Iverson to adapt, I think he can get Marbury to, also.

adapt is the wrong word. Its more like buy into. Iverson never adapted he bought into Larry philosophy of how to play the right way and win by playing defense, rebounding and playing as a team and getting the most out of every player's strengths
bobs3304
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7/31/2005  4:59 PM
I'm not saying he can or can't, but it will def. be a challenge, and nothing's for certain. To expect Larry to take a bunch of uncertain, inconsistent, unefficient players and turn them around is just bogus.

When has he ever taken more than 1 player and really turned them around. For Detroit, it was Billups. For Philly it was AI. The rest of the team always needed fine-tuning, but you can't rely on talent and potential alone. You need players that are consistent and that can adapt to the team's needs. Crawford is just not that type of player. He needs freedom. He's the type of player that has star potential (believe it or not), but, like Marbury, would need less talented, but more efficient, controlled, teammates by his side to win. Some of you hate Steve Francis, and would never want him playing alonside Marbury, but you're fine with Crawford?

That just boggles my mind...seriously.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
gunsnewing
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7/31/2005  5:04 PM
more than Larry being a miracle worker/player psychologist is the fact that he teaches guys how to play defense the right way, where to be, how to rebound how to share the ball and players buy into it.
bobs3304
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7/31/2005  5:08 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

more than Larry being a miracle worker/player psychologist is the fact that he teaches guys how to play defense the right way, where to be, how to rebound how to share the ball and players buy into it.

obviously not all of them. in fact, I'd say less than half, b/c all those players he's had traded before weren't just "bad" players.

mark my words: if Crawford's not traded now, Larry will have him traded sooner rather than later.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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7/31/2005  5:24 PM
Good call about Hughes. I guess all that can be said is that he plays the passing lanes better than Crawford.

One thing's for sure, though. There's absolutely no excuse for keeping Crawford just b/c 82games' PER says he's a slightly better defender than Hughes. No reason at all. This is not a Crawford vs. Hughes debate. This is a Crawford vs. Every Starting SG in the League Debate, and Crawford just doesn't cut it.

I'm not concerned with what 82games says about Crawford's production at point. He is a PG, pure and simple. He's no John Stockton, but either is AI or Marbury. These are guys that are better at breaking down the defense and getting teammates open shots. Granted, they don't really make their teammates BETTER, but they rack up assists nonetheless.

Oh, and just to clarify - making your teammates better requires you to lower the production of your own game in order to raise the level of others'. It's about caring more about the team and not about yourself - "doing anything to win." If that involves scoring 50 or having your teammates score 50, so be it.

Marbury will be getting atleast 25 MPG at point guard, and then 10 or so at SG (at most). That would leave 20-25 minutes for Nate and Crawford to share. Even if Nate is only given 5-10 MPG (and I'm guaranteeing right now that's a minimum), then Crawford's only guaranteed 20 minutes MAX. That's what you want out of your 8.5 Million dollar man?

But again, it all comes down to what Crawford does best. He's not the type that's comfortable in a strict offense. He needs freedom to be creative. I feel more confident in Marbury being able to adapt to Larry's strict expectations. Trading Crawford now for a defensive backcourt player and a pick is what I'd expect in the next few weeks or months...

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

[Edited by - BOBS3304 on 07/31/2005 17:24:19]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
tapseer
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7/31/2005  6:16 PM
How can anyone say what a player is able or not able to do? How can you pass judgement on someone because 'they haven't done it before'? Before you start saying anything definitively about any player or coach of this team, why don't you just let them play? All this Marbury this, or Crawford that, or can the coach get them to play the right way stuff is sickening and there are 4 pages worth of it. If anybody holds out any hope for the players we have i.e. Marbury or Crawford, they get shut down with speculative nonsense. Until it's been shown that Marbury and Crawford does not fit 'the system', all the naysayers and killjoys need to be quiet. You guys kill a good feeling quicker than anything, and it's all things you've put in your mind. Let them at least play a game, before you start dishing dirt.

[Edited by - tapseer on 07/31/2005 18:19:14]
djsunyc
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7/31/2005  6:29 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

you know what, I'm done with these Crawford arguements.

this just in from vegas....odds are starting at 50 to 1 that this statement is true. who's placing bets?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07/31/2005 18:29:26]
newyorknewyork
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7/31/2005  6:31 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Why aren't Marbury & Crawford cappable of being good defenders???

good question...i'm sure their head coaches have been asking themselves the same thing over the years...they still haven't figured it out yet...maybe LB can, who knows...but i'm not holding my breath...TEAM defense is what LB will be stressing more than man on man D...that will have to be learned in practice, & if nothing else, LB's teams are usually the best prepared because he stresses so much of the fundamentals.

Team defense is what I was talking about. Thats what most defenders are known as anyway good team defenders. There are very very very few players who can play great one on one defense without the help of an intimdating frontcourt player or players. And even Artest has O'neal and Bowen has Duncan. Prince has Ben Wallace. Billups & Rip Hamilton owe there defense to Ben Wallace.

Crawford is very good at playing the passing lanes and tips a lot of passes disrupting opponents offensive flow at times. He wasn't a strong one on one defender and I don't ever expect him to be an exceptional one. You think that Tyson Chandler only playing 35games the yr before last didn't hurt Crawfords D, or the fact that Chandler stayed healthy this last season didn't improve the Bulls current D. But again its extremly hard to be when your biggest intimidater is Kurt Thomas. Marburys biggest problem was defending the pick and roll. But I remember how Marburys defense improved so much in 2003 when Amare Stoudemire came into the scene. There was even an article about it. Marbury already showed he could be a good defender.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
rvhoss
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7/31/2005  6:32 PM
Promise?
Posted by bobs3304:

you know what, I'm done with these Crawford arguements.
all kool aid all the time.
newyorknewyork
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7/31/2005  6:35 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Why aren't Marbury & Crawford cappable of being good defenders???

I'm not even gonna justify that with an answer.

Probably because you don't have one
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
djsunyc
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7/31/2005  6:36 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Why aren't Marbury & Crawford cappable of being good defenders???

I'm not even gonna justify that with an answer.

Probably because you don't have one
you have to re-read his posts (probably at least 10-20 more times)

oh newyorknewyork...you're such a HOMER

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07/31/2005 18:36:41]
rvhoss
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7/31/2005  6:38 PM
no chance unless he's talkiong about this topic...I'm afraid to see what other topics he's got going.

How about these bobs:

"I hate marbury, by your beloved bobs"
"marbury sucks, and so does crawford IMHO - bobs"
"bobs hates marbs and marbs hate bobs"
"I'm not really a knick fan, but I play one on UltimateKnicks.com"
"Uhhh"
"eff marbs"
"Crawford sucks too, by Bobs3304"
"Bobs3304 and marbs, THF"
"Bobs3304, this is my last post, no really, it is"


Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by bobs3304:

you know what, I'm done with these Crawford arguements.

this just in from vegas....odds are starting at 50 to 1 that this statement is true. who's placing bets?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07/31/2005 18:29:26]
all kool aid all the time.
TMS
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7/31/2005  6:52 PM
relax tapseer...some of you guys get so defensive everytime someone makes any kind of criticism of a Knicks player...this board is turning into a place where opposing points of view can't even be discussed without being ripped on...it's ridiculous

IMHO, there's nothing that unreasonable about seeing how a player's performed in the past over a significant length of time to draw a projection of how he'll perform in the future...we're not talking about 1st or 2nd year players here...but then, some posters here are still waiting for Tim Thomas to turn into that superstar player someday...there's logic for ya.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/31/2005  6:56 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Team defense is what I was talking about. Thats what most defenders are known as anyway good team defenders. There are very very very few players who can play great one on one defense without the help of an intimdating frontcourt player or players. And even Artest has O'neal and Bowen has Duncan. Prince has Ben Wallace. Billups & Rip Hamilton owe there defense to Ben Wallace.

Crawford is very good at playing the passing lanes and tips a lot of passes disrupting opponents offensive flow at times. He wasn't a strong one on one defender and I don't ever expect him to be an exceptional one. You think that Tyson Chandler only playing 35games the yr before last didn't hurt Crawfords D, or the fact that Chandler stayed healthy this last season didn't improve the Bulls current D. But again its extremly hard to be when your biggest intimidater is Kurt Thomas. Marburys biggest problem was defending the pick and roll. But I remember how Marburys defense improved so much in 2003 when Amare Stoudemire came into the scene. There was even an article about it. Marbury already showed he could be a good defender.

i agree, Crawford is good at defending the passing lanes, but alot of times he finds himself out of position & misses defensive assignments when he's supposed to rotate to the open man...he also gets overpowered alot by bigger SG's...that's something that probably can't be helped unless he bulks up alot more, but then he loses his quickness on offense as a result...i still maintain that i'd much rather see Craw playing the PG, but i hate the idea of Marbury playing the 2 as well...it's a Catch 22...i hope LB has the answers, cuz i sure can't figure out how he's gonna handle it.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
BRIGGS
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7/31/2005  7:02 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I don't think IT should get the blame for these guys not even trying to play D. He brought in the players, but they have to start being held accountable for what they do on the court. He's brought in atheltic players who should be able to move well enough to play D. That is why it was so HUGE that he brought in LB. LB will NEVER tolerate any of the crap that went on last year.

Lets not jump on IT, cuz I think he's done a GREAT job with this team so far and he's not finished yet. How much do you expect any human to be able to do in less than 2 full seasons? Its practically a miracle how he's turned this thing around. Forget about last years failure, this team is right now more talented and closer to winning than they were when he got here and now he has the coach to pull it all together.

Bobs3304, you seem to be overlooking the impact that LB has had on all of his teams. i don't really give as much credit to the lineup of his teams as I do to his coaching, cuz no matter what team he's coached they've instantly improved on D in his 1st year and even more in the 2nd year. Even the dang Clippers played D under him. He's just a great coach and knows what he's doing. Steph & JC CAN play D, maybe not flat out shut down D, but good enough to win games. Then we'll have our defensive specialists on the floor at times to really tighten up tthe screws on opponents.

From day one the whole team will know that they HAVE to 1st play D, 2nd SHARE the call 2nd and 3rd REBOUND. Those simple things are all he cares about. To me we won't have to make too many changes in order to do that. We will probably just add a player he likes but not anything huge in the way of changes right now.




So what you are saying is that if IT traded for guys like Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Ben Wallace, Ruben Patterson etc.. they would've come to the Knicks and not played defense?

Lets get real--IT has catered to guys who DONT play defense--ill say the draft picks could help and ariza is the main guy who he has aquired who can really play some D and also score some/rebound BUT
Marbury-no defense
Crawford-no defense
Mo Taylor-we are paying 30MM$ for him and he was on the Rockets IR for not playing defense plus we threw in a pick
Tim Thomas=no defense
JYD-defense but he is not that good and he was a throw in
malik rose-not good enough to get big minutes-but hey ill give him some credit here
we had a chance to get the best defender in CBB in eddie badsen--we couldve goten him for nothing
who else?
Q--already being ripped by brown--terrible defender
penny-shot

He hasnt gone after two way players for the most part

but i hope they dont think eric snow will remedy this--that guy is SHOT!
RIP Crushalot😞
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