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Sixers keep Dalembert
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rvhoss
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7/25/2005  12:04 PM
so what you are saying there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY JJ improves his numbers with increased playing time, however, Dalembart will DEFINITELY improve his.

Sounds like a biased statement where the proof will be in the pudding.

Try looking at it objectively for once.

Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by rojasmas:

Terms were 6 years for 60-80 million. Big cash for him I think.
damn.. I thought he was coming here for the MLE for sure

Eh...what's an extra $30-$40 million...Almost makes JJ look like a bargain.

although JJ is getting 1/2 the salary, his contributions of only a 1/3 of dalemberts. JJ plays 16 mins a night. daly will now get his 35 mins and pretty much guarantee you at least 10/10/3 EVERY NIGHT RIGHT NOW. and this doesn't take into account if he develops.

say what you will but if the market price for bigmen has been set, and we're giving JJ $6mil a year, then HELLS YEAH i'm giving daly $10 mil a year.
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rvhoss
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7/25/2005  12:11 PM
I agree...I remember last year getting into it with SIM about how awesome this kid is, and yet, he's still got the same numbers as before...as a matter of fact, TT has better numbers and we all claim he sucks.

If not now, WHEN? And how is he going to get these points? AI and CWebb will have the attempts market covered. He's a role player the sixers HAD to over pay for.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Frye will be (and possibly already is) better than Samuel.

And I don't want to hear you all say it's Cheeks fault, like you keep saying it's Obrien's fault...eventually, it will be Dalembert's fault.

well, except on this board.

Posted by tkf:
Posted by fishmike:

yes.. you do give a center with no post game a big contract, when that center is on his way to being the next Dikembe Mutumbo. He's got decent hands and good body control. The offense will come, but we are talking about a guy who will score double digits and never have a play called. He's a longer more athletic 24 year old Theo Ratliff. If you think he's a 6/7 "career" player your making an ass of yourself. He's shown he can play at a very high level for extended stretches and in the playoffs. Does he need more coaching? Does he need more work? Is he polished? Yes, yes, no. There isnt one player on our roster right now any GM with half a brain wouldnt trade for Dalembert though.

if this guy is going to be the next dikembe then I don't see why you think he is worth that kind of money, Deke was not worth that kind of money. Dalembert is aleady 24 and this guy has no resemblence of a offensive or post game, yet you seem so confident that he will get one, why is that?
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rvhoss
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7/25/2005  12:13 PM
I just reread this...10/10/3 is worth $10 mill a year.

I just want to make sure I read that right.

so...5/5/1.5 is worth $5 mill?

Just to be clear on what James is to work up to...you (DJSUNCY) will be happy if we get 5/5/1.5 from JJ.

You'll quit your bitchin? You'll eat you're crow?
Posted by djsunyc:


although JJ is getting 1/2 the salary, his contributions of only a 1/3 of dalemberts. JJ plays 16 mins a night. daly will now get his 35 mins and pretty much guarantee you at least 10/10/3 EVERY NIGHT RIGHT NOW. and this doesn't take into account if he develops.
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djsunyc
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7/25/2005  12:14 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

so what you are saying there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY JJ improves his numbers with increased playing time, however, Dalembart will DEFINITELY improve his.

Sounds like a biased statement where the proof will be in the pudding.

Try looking at it objectively for once.

Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by rojasmas:

Terms were 6 years for 60-80 million. Big cash for him I think.
damn.. I thought he was coming here for the MLE for sure

Eh...what's an extra $30-$40 million...Almost makes JJ look like a bargain.

although JJ is getting 1/2 the salary, his contributions of only a 1/3 of dalemberts. JJ plays 16 mins a night. daly will now get his 35 mins and pretty much guarantee you at least 10/10/3 EVERY NIGHT RIGHT NOW. and this doesn't take into account if he develops.

say what you will but if the market price for bigmen has been set, and we're giving JJ $6mil a year, then HELLS YEAH i'm giving daly $10 mil a year.

rv - where is the evidence that JJ Will get increased playing time? he can't stay on the court b/c of fouls. daly couldn't stay on the court b/c of o'brien, NOT fouls. two different things.

if JJ stays on the court for 30 mins a night, it's a COUP and it was an AWESOME signing. but HISTORY has proven otherwise, and in this case, it's the player's fault.
bernard
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7/25/2005  12:16 PM
Thing about Dalembert is he's a good off-the-ball defender, but not so great on the ball. Frankly, I'd rather have JJ on Shaq than Dalembert. So, imo, he's a one dimentional guy. Good help defender. Period. Like the consensus on this board, should not = $10 mm-plus/year. Glad we didn't sign him to that.
rvhoss
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7/25/2005  12:19 PM
who's fault was it the previous year when Daly didn't get his numbers?

Like I said, all of these statements are find and dandy when you love a guy, and you can make every excuse in the book on why he isn't able to stay on the floor.

James was in the playoffs last year, and put up some good numbers.

Dalembar has made it two year's in a row and is still potential filled.. <= stupid statement, taken out

I don't know...I'm just not exactly sure why you guys are so high on this kid...maybe this year he'll break out and I can finally say you guys were right, but I was waiting on that last year and it never came, instead they fired their coach and it still never arrived.

A couple of big games (seen that with TT), a couple of big weeks (again, seen that with TT) and still nothing to take home as thinking he's a long term bona fide center in this league that can cover duncan.

Well, in this market he's probably worth $10 mill...and if an athletic center (with no knowledge of the game that I've seen) and has no post up ability is worth $10 million, then JJ is worth $5 mill easy.

Sht...Ariza is worth $8 mill...he average what...about the same numbers as Dalembert and was only 19 years old and got half the minutes. <= stupid statement, taken out

Interesting...just wondering where the biased opinion is coming from...are you Samuel Dalembert?


[Edited by - rvhoss on 07/25/2005 12:25:50]
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rvhoss
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7/25/2005  12:21 PM
once again, I'm not saying Dalembert sucks, I'm saying the opposite...I'm saying JJ was worth the money and this signing proves it.
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fishmike
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7/25/2005  12:33 PM
a couple things. Stop looking at stats and using them to argue a players worth. Deke changed games. He could completely take an opposition out of their plan. Now the league is even MORE guard oriented with the rule changes in recent years making a guy like Dalembert that much more valueable. There isnt a stat for changing shots into low % or all the tips on offense he gets that creat more shots, or all the deflections he get guarding the post.

RV.. I'm pretty sure you dont know what your talking about regarding JJ. You just think he needs more minutes to improve his production? This guy is a foul machine. He averages almost 4 fouls a game in his 17 minutes. Minutes arent the problem. The problem is he's a hacking machine.

Here's what you will get with Jerome James... remember when we had Deke and he was playing well? Expect something like that. Some nights he wont get used at all because he's totally ineffective. Other nights he will get 2 fouls in 4 minutes. 3 fouls 2 minutes after being back in the game and his 4th and 5th in back to back possetions giving him 5 in about 7 minutes. Then he will have those usefull nights where he gets you 10 points, and 7 boards on 4-5 shooting. Then you will get those 15-18 games a year where things go his way and he's unstoppable. He gives you 20/12 on 7-8 FGs and 6-8 FTs. At the end of the day you get what you have seen his whole career. 6 points, 5 boards and 3.5 fouls over the season in something UNDER 20 minutes.

Where's Ben Wallace's post game? They are on the same pace in their careers, only Dalembert is better after 3 years in the league.
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jaydh
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7/25/2005  12:37 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Here's what you will get with Jerome James... remember when we had Deke and he was playing well? Expect something like that. Some nights he wont get used at all because he's totally ineffective. Other nights he will get 2 fouls in 4 minutes. 3 fouls 2 minutes after being back in the game and his 4th and 5th in back to back possetions giving him 5 in about 7 minutes. Then he will have those usefull nights where he gets you 10 points, and 7 boards on 4-5 shooting. Then you will get those 15-18 games a year where things go his way and he's unstoppable. He gives you 20/12 on 7-8 FGs and 6-8 FTs. At the end of the day you get what you have seen his whole career. 6 points, 5 boards and 3.5 fouls over the season in something UNDER 20 minutes.

wow, that sounds exactly like how Kurt Thomas used to be for us back in the Ewing days... hes still racking up the fouls...isnt he? lol, you mean a player can change?!
fishmike
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7/25/2005  12:58 PM
sure he can change! Lets sign more 30 year old players for as much money as we are allowed to offer because we can change them!!!

Yes players change... they also change for the WORSE. Ever think about that? Here's a thought... Clarence Weatherspoon. Had great #s for a long time VERY productive player and great rebounder.

But I'm sure because the NY KNICKS signed him he can only change for the better.

Lets keep debating the upside of a 24 year old uber athletic hard working player who's been in the league 3 years vs. a 30 year old who misses games and shows up out of shape every year. Yes, Dalembert can be a bust. MAybe he's always inconsistant and an offensive liability. However investing in a 24 year old player who has proven he works hard, has stayed healthy and has played at an elite lever for stretches is a pretty good investment in a center. On the flip side you have JJ who is 30, misses 20 games a year, shows up out of shape and has a rep for loafing and taking nights off.

Geeze.. thank god players *can* change.
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fishmike
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7/25/2005  1:01 PM
KT is a good example. Especially after he got hurt early in his career he was dedicated to being in good shape and controlling his weight. Every year he came into camp in great shape and outplayed his competition for a starting role. Every year he worked on his game to improve his handle, his range or his rebounding. Despite his size and the fact that he was pretty unathletic he WORKED himself into a very productive player. Has JJ shown any of those traits? Ever?
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diderotn
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7/25/2005  1:21 PM
How old is Kurt, and how tall is he?????? JJ is only 29 and has not been playing organize basketball for too long. Under a coach like Brown, he can put it all together, because we all know that Brown doesn't appreciate lazy players..

Posted by fishmike:

KT is a good example. Especially after he got hurt early in his career he was dedicated to being in good shape and controlling his weight. Every year he came into camp in great shape and outplayed his competition for a starting role. Every year he worked on his game to improve his handle, his range or his rebounding. Despite his size and the fact that he was pretty unathletic he WORKED himself into a very productive player. Has JJ shown any of those traits? Ever?
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fishmike
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7/25/2005  1:34 PM
he's more likley to ride pine because Larry B doesnt like lazy players. Whats to put together? JJ's problems arent because he hasnt been coached. They are because he loafs, shows up out of shape every year and takes games off.
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djsunyc
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7/25/2005  1:44 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

I just reread this...10/10/3 is worth $10 mill a year.

I just want to make sure I read that right.

so...5/5/1.5 is worth $5 mill?

Just to be clear on what James is to work up to...you (DJSUNCY) will be happy if we get 5/5/1.5 from JJ.

You'll quit your bitchin? You'll eat you're crow?
Posted by djsunyc:


although JJ is getting 1/2 the salary, his contributions of only a 1/3 of dalemberts. JJ plays 16 mins a night. daly will now get his 35 mins and pretty much guarantee you at least 10/10/3 EVERY NIGHT RIGHT NOW. and this doesn't take into account if he develops.

what are you talkin' about dude?

eat crow?

we're talking about our team here, not who's right or wrong or "see i told you so" crap.

jj will help us - i've ALWAYS said that. but he's just not worth the FIVE YEARS we gave him, imho. and his HISTORY supports my argument based on his minutes b/c he CAN'T stay out of foul trouble.

and the discussion here is dalembert. he, to me, is EASILY worth $10 mil a year in this current market where 16 min a night centers like JJ are making $6 mil. this guy may become THE best defensive center in the league and possibly THE best shotblocker as well.

when jj plays 30 mins on a consistent basis, then the signing is a COUP for isiah. but he has to do it first. with daly, it wasn't about him being in foul trouble or not trying, it was purely on jim o'brien and his offensive/defensive sets and philosophy.

i ain't b tchin, i ain't moanin'.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07/25/2005 13:45:16]
fishmike
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7/25/2005  2:01 PM
dj said it... nobody will say James doesnt fill a need. He obviously does. I also think for 20-25 games he will have a big impact next year and really help us win some games. He will also have a bunch of DNPs or 5 minute 3 foul performances.

The point was is he worth it and I say hell no. We have watched year after year how these bad deals keep us from making moves we want to make, and here we are adding another bad deal. We really need size and JJ gives us some good muscle but we are paying for him what other teams are paying for core players the same age like Reef, Swift and Marshall. Thats paying WAY above market... unless you consider the market to be what guys like Blount and Booth are making.

Here's the question... did we sign JJ at fair market because thats what Booth and Blount and Foyal are getting? Or did we just make the same mistake those other teams made? I learn towards to the latter but thats just one man's opinion
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diderotn
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7/25/2005  2:11 PM
Zeke can easily fix the JJ skepticism by offering Hunter a deal. Two 7' that can play defense and block shots is a pretty good asset to have. Detroit has 3 (Wallace, Wallace, and McDyess)
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Pharzeone
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7/25/2005  2:13 PM
Posted by fishmike:

dj said it... nobody will say James doesnt fill a need. He obviously does. I also think for 20-25 games he will have a big impact next year and really help us win some games. He will also have a bunch of DNPs or 5 minute 3 foul performances.

The point was is he worth it and I say hell no. We have watched year after year how these bad deals keep us from making moves we want to make, and here we are adding another bad deal. We really need size and JJ gives us some good muscle but we are paying for him what other teams are paying for core players the same age like Reef, Swift and Marshall. Thats paying WAY above market... unless you consider the market to be what guys like Blount and Booth are making.

Here's the question... did we sign JJ at fair market because thats what Booth and Blount and Foyal are getting? Or did we just make the same mistake those other teams made? I learn towards to the latter but thats just one man's opinion

It's funny that you use Booth in you comparison because that's one of the guys I compare Dalembert to and Cato too. Two guys who had much promise due to their athlethic ability but were very raw offensively. Good shot blockers, excellent weak side blockers but limited man to man defenders.
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rvhoss
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7/25/2005  2:24 PM
funny indeed.
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rvhoss
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7/25/2005  2:30 PM
This is exactly what I am saying...your write up was perfect (though, kind of contradicts your previous arguments on dalembert's worth)

What you described below is worth $5 million IMHO.
Posted by fishmike:

a couple things. Stop looking at stats and using them to argue a players worth. Deke changed games. He could completely take an opposition out of their plan.

and your saying James will not have that ability to do so...IYHO.
Now the league is even MORE guard oriented with the rule changes in recent years making a guy like Dalembert that much more valueable. There isnt a stat for changing shots into low % or all the tips on offense he gets that creat more shots, or all the deflections he get guarding the post.

see above quote
RV.. I'm pretty sure you dont know what your talking about regarding JJ. You just think he needs more minutes to improve his production? This guy is a foul machine. He averages almost 4 fouls a game in his 17 minutes. Minutes arent the problem. The problem is he's a hacking machine.
so what's your point?
Here's what you will get with Jerome James... remember when we had Deke and he was playing well? Expect something like that. Some nights he wont get used at all because he's totally ineffective. Other nights he will get 2 fouls in 4 minutes. 3 fouls 2 minutes after being back in the game and his 4th and 5th in back to back possetions giving him 5 in about 7 minutes. Then he will have those usefull nights where he gets you 10 points, and 7 boards on 4-5 shooting. Then you will get those 15-18 games a year where things go his way and he's unstoppable.
Sounds like he's worth $5 mill to me...I mean, if he was to do it 45 games out of the year, what would that be worth?
He gives you 20/12 on 7-8 FGs and 6-8 FTs. At the end of the day you get what you have seen his whole career. 6 points, 5 boards and 3.5 fouls over the season in something UNDER 20 minutes.
Sounds like he's worth $5 mill to me...I mean, if he was to do it 45 games out of the year, what would that be worth?
Where's Ben Wallace's post game? They are on the same pace in their careers, only Dalembert is better after 3 years in the league.

I completely agree.

so, I say again, what's your point?

Dalembart is worth $10 mill and JJ is worth $5 mill? Or is JJ only worth $4 mill? or are the numbers basically the same? Or are you just down on the JJ signing?

Just wondering why all the Dalembert love.
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fishmike
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7/25/2005  2:30 PM
Dalembert doesnt have promise. He's shown he can average 12/12/4.5 over exended periods of time. Cato and Booth NEVER showed that. Kwame did it over a couple games, not a a couple of months.

Dalembert got buried behind Jackson.

Whats funny is if *we* signed Dalember how you guys would be gushing over him. If you think JJ is a good signing Dalembert would have you booking a parade on your calender next July
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