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One Eastern Conf. GM says we'd have to give up Q in order to get Kwame (Ny Times)
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fishmike
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7/9/2005  1:48 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by bobs3304:

Marbury should be dealt, but in this case, it would be b/c Marbury has never shown an ability or desire to push the ball up the floor.
then you havent been watching him for very long.
funny - you're the first person to ever tell me that...
anytime Marbury has ever played with uptempo players he's pushed the ball. Hell... he was pushing the ball last year and getting KVH and TT good looks in transition. He always pushed the ball with Pho also.

If you are refering to him walking the ball up last year with a frontcourt of Sweetney and KT your right... he didnt push it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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bobs3304
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7/9/2005  1:53 PM
listen here's the hard reality:

Marbury has always (and will always) be under the impression that he's primetime. He KNOWS he's always the best player on the team, and that if you just gave him just a little help, he can do the rest.

But the problem is that, who's to say Kwame is gonna be THAT much better than Nazr or Kurt Thomas. The only way we can win with Marbury, is by landing a primetime big man. Now, I'm completely ignoring the roster hangup we have with Crawford needing minutes and there not being enough to go around.

Marbury is a fan-favorite, the chosen one. He's 20 and 8, he's shake and bake, he's money. Well, at least in the first 3 quarters...

Point is, Marbury is all those things and more, except a franchise player. He's a SG stuck in a PG's body. The offense becomes stagnant with a shoot-first PG, and only Isiah was able to juggle his scoring ability while making his teammates better. It's more than just assists, it's how you get your teammates involved. Isiah believed in those guys, and they believed in him. He could take over, he could play D, he could do everything, but above all, he was in union with what Chuck Daly and the rest of the guys believed in. They were a TEAM.

With us, it seems like we cling onto Marbury. He says, "I got this." And therefore we rely on him for most of the offense. Does he set up teammates - yes. Does he drive and create fouls - yes. Does he shoot a high % - yes. Does he play hard - yes.

That looks good on paper, but players don't win playoff games, teams do. Michael Jordan couldn't do **** until Doug Collins convinced him to trust his teammates, and when Scottie Pippen came along.

I'm not expecting a Scottie Pippen to come along, let alone a Horace Grant. But Jordan was in his young-20's when he started believing in the players around him. Marbury, unfortunately, has never really had a knack for making his teammates BETTER and trusting them. If anything, he has a history of separating himself from them and feeding the ball to guys when he sees fit - not going out of his way to propel the game of everyone else. I'm not sure if you'd call in selfishness, maybe just the fact that he's not great, just really good. It's the difference b/w Nash and Marbury. Some of you are so held up on statistics, and you forget to realize that wins and losses are what really matter. And even more than that, Nash interacts with his teammates, he cares. He wants them to do better than him, he believes in them. They feed off of his positive attitude. He always looks for them before himself. Marbury's famous quote is "Shoot when in doubt. That's how I look at it."

Forget about cap space, and the glut at guard. Forget about all that. When I watch Marbury, I look at a guy that can never be better than his best. I see a guy that, without the 20 and 8, he's nothing more than a role player. I see a guy that can never lead, a guy that seems more comfortable walking the ball up and using the pick and roll time after time, instead of looking for a better way. I see a guy that denies he can never win, and then personally ask Isiah to "get Shaq."

I see a guy that wants to win, but would never do everything it takes to. I see a guy that doesn't realize it takes a journey to get to the promised land. Problem is - Marbury has been on 1 journey too many...

Will we lose even more by dealing Marbury - most likely an emphatic yes. Why? B/c we need to get used to relying on the team concept rather than one player. Crawford would be a excellent replacement, if not for his size and handle, then b/c his teammates actually feed off of him. Call it what you want, but Marbury's skills are what precede him, not his leadership, not clutchness, not his heart.

And what happens if we don't trade him? - we might win. We might win alot. In fact, we might make the playoffs, and maybe, just maybe, make it to the 2nd Round. But what then? We'll lose. Why? B/c, if anything, we'd be built in the same exact way as Washington was this past season. After that - Marbury will be 30, soon to be 31, and just about past his prime. The beatig he takes night in - night out will take a toll on his knees. Sweetney will be expiring, and might look for an extension. Timmy will be gone. All of a sudden, you're missing a starting-caliber SF and possibly a young, able PF. You're star player, the same player that Minnesota, NJ, and Pheonix all relied on, will be another year older, and not all that much closer to a championship. Meanwhile, the cap will be down to around 100 Million, (b/c of this year's MLE), and we're still no better than Chicago or Milwaukee, both of whom will be at or around the cap.

Trading Marbury gives us the chance to get younger, stay competitive, but all with the knowledge that rebuilding means RE-BUILDING, not re-hashing...

Let's do this the right way.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
fishmike
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7/9/2005  2:10 PM
sounds a lot like what people said about Rasheed Wallace 2 years ago.

The really hard reality is we are a 30 win team and cant afford to just cast off talented and productive players in their prime because we are convinced they may never lead us to a title. Go back to the Detroit example. NO WAY they get a good player like Rip back for Stackhouse if they traded him after winning 32 games. Instead they were patient, got a better coach, added Cliff Robinson for a veteran pressence in the post and won 50 gams the next year. Then the moved Stackhouse for probably the exact same reasons you just said we should move Marbury.

You have to be smart here, and dumping a 28 year old player getting you 22/8 that plays hard everynight for a pick or some expiring contract is just bad business.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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7/9/2005  2:17 PM
Crawford is better than Q. Q's only advantage is size on defense. But size doesn't stop Rip Hamilton from being a solid defender, he's built exactly like Crawford. I would keep Craw, he's a special player. Q is above average, but nothing special in my mind. I actually wouldn't like the trade if we hadn't gotten Nate back. But if Washington values Quentin more, I'm all for trading Q for Kwame and Blatche/#1 pick. I don't think the Wizards give up Blatche AND #1 pick, but they'd probably do one or the other.

¿ △ ?
bobs3304
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7/9/2005  2:17 PM
I think, for right now, you're absolutely right. But Marbury is signed through 2009, and keeping him ensures we're in cap hell until then. But, I guess I'm looking at it more from the business standpoint, and from the team concept. I feel, with some key additions, we can be just as good WITHOUT Marbury as we are WITH him, only minus his bloated salary...

I just hope whoever's the next coach knows how to split minutes evenly b/w Crawford, Q, and Steph. It's not gonna be easy.

Just to reiterate - forget Stats. My feeling is that we, as a TEAM, can be just as good without Steph, as opposed to with him. Some of you forget to realize this is a team sport, not the Starbury show...

But I'll be the first to scream my ****in lungs out once Steph brings up the ball for the first time in October. Knicks in 06.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
s3231
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7/9/2005  3:07 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

in today's NBA, you trade talent for cap space and picks. Example - Baron Davis. Example - Vince Carter. At this point, if we're lucky enough to even find a suitor, the best we could get is Harrington and a pick. I'd sign up for that, and then find a way to trade 1-2 of our PF's. In one summer, we could basically ensure a normalized cap situation in only 2 years. And if anyone should get waived, it would be Malik Rose, only b/c of his longterm salary...

Again, do I think Steph WILL get traded - probably not. Do I think he SHOULD be - not a doubt in my mind.

Just b/c it would be hard to let him go - a fan favorite, a guy that never took a night off, our best player.......it's a move you have to make for the future of this franchise.

See, you can't compare Stephon to Vince and Baron. Vince and Baron both wanted to leave their teams which didn't give their GMs a whole lot of leverage (especially in Vince's case since he just completely quit on his team). We are not in that same position because Marbury wants to play for us and from the looks of it, we want him here. We don't have to trade Stephon at all so there is no reason for us to just trade him for expirings. Marbury didn't quit on us, he played hurt going for 40 mpg even when we we're mathematically out of the playoffs. Say what you want, but Steph is a warrior that will go into battle. Not to mention that he averaged 22/8 last season with a high FG% which is very impressive considering he had no help whatsoever. This season, he has Richardson in the backcourt with him, he has Jamal and Nate coming off the bench and hopefully he has a motivated Mike Sweetney along with a rookie in Channing Frye who should be ready to contribute. There is no reason to trade him right now whatsoever. Fish's reference to what the Pistons did with Stackhouse is dead on. If Marbury doesn't fit here, then lets at least give him a chance to up his value since we should win more games this season.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
gunsnewing
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7/9/2005  3:11 PM
Posted by fishmike:

sounds a lot like what people said about Rasheed Wallace 2 years ago.

The really hard reality is we are a 30 win team and cant afford to just cast off talented and productive players in their prime because we are convinced they may never lead us to a title. Go back to the Detroit example. NO WAY they get a good player like Rip back for Stackhouse if they traded him after winning 32 games. Instead they were patient, got a better coach, added Cliff Robinson for a veteran pressence in the post and won 50 gams the next year. Then the moved Stackhouse for probably the exact same reasons you just said we should move Marbury.

You have to be smart here, and dumping a 28 year old player getting you 22/8 that plays hard everynight for a pick or some expiring contract is just bad business.

thats a good point. Hopefully Marbury can lead us to a 1st round playoff exit and increase his trade value the way Stackhouse did
rain
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7/9/2005  3:19 PM
Kwame brown... yeah, let's use someone that will be productive on our team PLUS a #1 for someone that wines and underacheives, and then gets a RAISE? People, the end of last year he was removed from the roster for insubordination... he doens't work hard. SO let's reward him with a contract. His stock has risen based solely on the fact there are no true centers in the league to be had. Buy low, sell high. Here were doing the opposite. His stock couldn't be any lower. Bad Business.

I'd rather trade Crawford or Q for Nene. For that deal I'd throw in a #1 next year.

Marbury/Nate
Q or Crawford/Ariza
Tim Thomas/Rose/Lee
Frye/Sweetney/Taylor
Nene/Frye

[Edited by - rain on 07/09/2005 15:21:26]
gunsnewing
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7/9/2005  3:24 PM
Posted by rain:

Kwame brown... yeah, let's use someone that will be productive on our team PLUS a #1 for someone that wines and underacheives, and then gets a RAISE? People, the end of last year he was removed from the roster for insubordination... he doens't work hard. SO let's reward him with a contract. His stock has risen based solely on the fact there are no true centers in the league to be had. Buy low, sell high. Here were doing the opposite. His stock couldn't be any lower. Bad Business.

I'd rather trade Crawford or Q for Nene. For that deal I'd throw in a #1 next year.

Marbury/Nate
Q or Crawford/Ariza
Tim Thomas/Rose/Lee
Frye/Sweetney/Taylor
Nene/Frye

[Edited by - rain on 07/09/2005 15:21:26]

oh no question about it! but we're not getting Nene for Crawford. Denver can do so much better!
bobs3304
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7/9/2005  3:30 PM
One thing I'm pretty certain about is that, whether or not he SHOULD be traded this summer, he WILL be dealt after this season if we don't get to the playoffs...


I'm all for giving Steph a chance. I just happen to care more about the team instead of the franchise player...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
gunsnewing
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7/9/2005  3:33 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

One thing I'm pretty certain about is that, whether or not he SHOULD be traded this summer, he WILL be dealt after this season if we don't get to the playoffs...


I'm all for giving Steph a chance. I just happen to care more about the team instead of the franchise player...

problem is we won't be able to deal him and his $22mil then. Not even for stiffs and expiring contracts. We're stuck. Hopefully we make the playoffs eventhough we won't get far. Hopefully we can trade him then
bobs3304
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7/9/2005  3:35 PM
So basically what you're saying is that our goal isn't even to make noise until a few years from now, unless of course we overachieve and make it relatively deep into the playoffs.

ehh, I don't like that...not one bit. It's like not having any expectations for next year's team. kinda kills the anticipation don't you think?
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
gunsnewing
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7/9/2005  3:42 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

So basically what you're saying is that our goal isn't even to make noise until a few years from now, unless of course we overachieve and make it relatively deep into the playoffs.

ehh, I don't like that...not one bit. It's like not having any expectations for next year's team. kinda kills the anticipation don't you think?

you're telling me! thats exactly how I'm feeling right now LOL! I'm actually looking forward to next year's draft more than another 30-40win season
Pharzeone
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7/9/2005  3:46 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

So basically what you're saying is that our goal isn't even to make noise until a few years from now, unless of course we overachieve and make it relatively deep into the playoffs.

ehh, I don't like that...not one bit. It's like not having any expectations for next year's team. kinda kills the anticipation don't you think?
...and who says fans won't accept rebuilding?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
gunsnewing
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7/9/2005  3:48 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by bobs3304:

So basically what you're saying is that our goal isn't even to make noise until a few years from now, unless of course we overachieve and make it relatively deep into the playoffs.

ehh, I don't like that...not one bit. It's like not having any expectations for next year's team. kinda kills the anticipation don't you think?
...and who says fans won't accept rebuilding?

seriously rebuilding includes stacking up on multiple high lottery picks and cap space unfortunately
bobs3304
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7/9/2005  3:49 PM
Ya...last time I checked the Hornets are rebuilding.

Having a team payroll over 100 Million doesnt constitute rebuilding. Isiah's just throwing that word around...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
rrini
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7/9/2005  5:16 PM
how about kwame for craw and sweets?
daddynel
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7/9/2005  5:17 PM
Posted by rrini:

how about kwame for craw and sweets?
how about no.
bigpimpin
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7/9/2005  5:47 PM
kwame brown is no better than me or you. Well, he might be better than you.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
One Eastern Conf. GM says we'd have to give up Q in order to get Kwame (Ny Times)

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