Didn't know it was a "Fire RJ" thread.

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious. The knock on Barrett has more regularly been his efficiency, which is a legit criticism. Seen plus/minus used pretty often too.

Let's put last night in context.

Randle scored a billion. Quickley played an inefficient game but per his expanded offensive role. Brunson was Brunson but deferred some offense to Randle. And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

Really? On a 4-8/2-3 game? With a perfectly in-line -2?

I get the 4 TOs are not ideal in 27 mins, that's fair. But to use the amount of (efficient) shots he took to highlight the TOs seems less than rational, and not for nothing, inconsistent, considering...

fishmike wrote:The question remains. When do we start to distribute some of the 16 shots being taken by the lest efficient guy we have to other's who have shot the ball better all year?

Am I wrong or are we in 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' territory here?

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious....

....And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

I said he stunk and the coach couldnt yank him fast enough. I provided some stats of why he stunk. You constructed an argument, because I didnt give you one.

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious....

....And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

what argument? I didnt say he didnt shoot enough, you did.

I said he stunk and the coach couldnt yank him fast enough.

He played 27 mins, which was in-line with everyone but Randle and Brunson.

I provided some stats of why he stunk.

What stinks about taking 8 shots and making 4 of them?

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious....

....And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

what argument? I didnt say he didnt shoot enough, you did.

I said he stunk and the coach couldnt yank him fast enough.

He played 27 mins, which was in-line with everyone but Randle and Brunson.

I provided some stats of why he stunk.

What stinks about taking 8 shots and making 4 of them?

True that the shooting percentage was good. However, it is more about fans pointing out what he is NOT doing while on the floor.
Which seems pretty obvious. Something that has cost him minutes and the confidence of Thibs to go with him at the end of games.
Guess best way to explain it is to say look at what the guy that has replaced him at the end of games is doing. JHart is what RJ needs to play more like. Pass, defend, hustle and affect the game in more than going 4-8. Think he can, but he has been a black hole on offense and absent on defense way too many times this year. He had a crucial fast break in the fourth off a turnover in which he basically went 1 on 3. And yes, we can probably say that of several other players but because of his perceived minimal team play and lack of other contributions, more fans are getting impatient. Still want to give RJ more time because I feel he is a beast going to the basket but the tunnel vision and lack of other hustle stats are growing tiresome. He is hitting many as just interested in scoring. Hard to argue if you look at his demeanor and energy if he is not scoring. Just my opinion.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious....

....And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

what argument? I didnt say he didnt shoot enough, you did.

I said he stunk and the coach couldnt yank him fast enough.

He played 27 mins, which was in-line with everyone but Randle and Brunson.

I provided some stats of why he stunk.

What stinks about taking 8 shots and making 4 of them?

True that the shooting percentage was good. However, it is more about fans pointing out what he is NOT doing while on the floor.

That's fine.

But when an individual makes the point Barrett should be shooting less so teammates who are more efficiently can shoot more, dinging him for shooting 8 shots (making 4 of them) seems inconsistent to me.

It seems the decision to shoot 8 efficient shots would go in the good and not the bad column.

Which seems pretty obvious. Something that has cost him minutes and the confidence of Thibs to go with him at the end of games.
Guess best way to explain it is to say look at what the guy that has replaced him at the end of games is doing. JHart is what RJ needs to play more like. Pass, defend, hustle and affect the game in more than going 4-8. Think he can, but he has been a black hole on offense and absent on defense way too many times this year. He had a crucial fast break in the fourth off a turnover in which he basically went 1 on 3. And yes, we can probably say that of several other players but because of his perceived minimal team play and lack of other contributions, more fans are getting impatient. Still want to give RJ more time because I feel he is a beast going to the basket but the tunnel vision and lack of other hustle stats are growing tiresome. He is hitting many as just interested in scoring. Hard to argue if you look at his demeanor and energy if he is not scoring. Just my opinion.

I got no problem with that. All reasonable.

I still think all roads lead to barrett criticisms and peaking after what has been a rare loss is what it is.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:It seems the decision to shoot 8 efficient shots would go in the good and not the bad column.

nope... because he had 8 TOs & PFS so he fumbled and stumbled and wasnt even part of the offense. 4 TOs and 4PFs seems a bit more balanced when you shoot 9-20 and 25 points. Can you grasp that?

You think the only shooting 8 was a decision? Who's decision? When was that made? Who had knowledge of this decision? Please elaborate

I think Barrett scored the Knicks 7 of the Knicks first 10 points. I don't think the evidence suggests there was some pre-game plan to exclude him from the offense or given his efficiency in-game, that any plan to exclude him from the offense developed.

I don't think 4 fouls provides any indication of his role or lack thereof in the offense.

I think he was on the floor when the Knicks took their largest lead early in the 4th quarter.

I think his lack of shooting is mostly explained by Julius Randle's outlying 28 shots and 13 FT (which I also don't think was part of a pre-game or half time game plan), both significantly above his averages. There are only so many shots to go around.

Other than that, I don't know what the point is. Is 4 TOs not good? Yeah, no argument. But I'd say 4 TO's is not good on a night he shoots 16 shots. I don't weight TO's on shots taken and having watched the game don't think any conclusions about this offense could be reached other than from a team offensive standpoint, it was an unusual one.

Beside him doing what you suggested he should do, I mean.

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious....

....And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

what argument? I didnt say he didnt shoot enough, you did.

I said he stunk and the coach couldnt yank him fast enough.

He played 27 mins, which was in-line with everyone but Randle and Brunson.

I provided some stats of why he stunk.

What stinks about taking 8 shots and making 4 of them?

True that the shooting percentage was good. However, it is more about fans pointing out what he is NOT doing while on the floor.

That's fine.

But when an individual makes the point Barrett should be shooting less so teammates who are more efficiently can shoot more, dinging him for shooting 8 shots (making 4 of them) seems inconsistent to me.

It seems the decision to shoot 8 efficient shots would go in the good and not the bad column.

Which seems pretty obvious. Something that has cost him minutes and the confidence of Thibs to go with him at the end of games.
Guess best way to explain it is to say look at what the guy that has replaced him at the end of games is doing. JHart is what RJ needs to play more like. Pass, defend, hustle and affect the game in more than going 4-8. Think he can, but he has been a black hole on offense and absent on defense way too many times this year. He had a crucial fast break in the fourth off a turnover in which he basically went 1 on 3. And yes, we can probably say that of several other players but because of his perceived minimal team play and lack of other contributions, more fans are getting impatient. Still want to give RJ more time because I feel he is a beast going to the basket but the tunnel vision and lack of other hustle stats are growing tiresome. He is hitting many as just interested in scoring. Hard to argue if you look at his demeanor and energy if he is not scoring. Just my opinion.

I got no problem with that. All reasonable.

I still think all roads lead to barrett criticisms and peaking after what has been a rare loss is what it is.

Can't really say that anyone was to blame for the loss due to their offensive performance. Although 4 TO's is pretty bad.
I would point more to an all around inability to stop everyone on Minny's team from scoring. Which may be at the focus of the RJ criticism. As he has had a tough year in that regard. Once again, my only point is that RJ needs to do other things besides score or shoot. He needs to set others up, play more energetic defense, cut down on bad TO's and add more hustle plays like getting loose balls. If he doesn't, it will assure that Thibs will go with others to close and that Knick fans will question their commitment to his development.

Nalod wrote:somebody is always to blame.
RJ is the new Randle.

Who was the new Payton.

Who was the new Randle.

What was the new Hardaway.

Think I can get as far back as Jared Jeffries off the top of my head.

Though credit where credit is due... 'Avi Lee' was a clever burn.

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Gotta say, I find this argument curious....

....And A knock on Barrett's game is he didn't shoot enough?

what argument? I didnt say he didnt shoot enough, you did.

I said he stunk and the coach couldnt yank him fast enough.

He played 27 mins, which was in-line with everyone but Randle and Brunson.

I provided some stats of why he stunk.

What stinks about taking 8 shots and making 4 of them?

True that the shooting percentage was good. However, it is more about fans pointing out what he is NOT doing while on the floor.

That's fine.

But when an individual makes the point Barrett should be shooting less so teammates who are more efficiently can shoot more, dinging him for shooting 8 shots (making 4 of them) seems inconsistent to me.

It seems the decision to shoot 8 efficient shots would go in the good and not the bad column.

Which seems pretty obvious. Something that has cost him minutes and the confidence of Thibs to go with him at the end of games.
Guess best way to explain it is to say look at what the guy that has replaced him at the end of games is doing. JHart is what RJ needs to play more like. Pass, defend, hustle and affect the game in more than going 4-8. Think he can, but he has been a black hole on offense and absent on defense way too many times this year. He had a crucial fast break in the fourth off a turnover in which he basically went 1 on 3. And yes, we can probably say that of several other players but because of his perceived minimal team play and lack of other contributions, more fans are getting impatient. Still want to give RJ more time because I feel he is a beast going to the basket but the tunnel vision and lack of other hustle stats are growing tiresome. He is hitting many as just interested in scoring. Hard to argue if you look at his demeanor and energy if he is not scoring. Just my opinion.

I got no problem with that. All reasonable.

I still think all roads lead to barrett criticisms and peaking after what has been a rare loss is what it is.

Can't really say that anyone was to blame for the loss due to their offensive performance. Although 4 TO's is pretty bad.
I would point more to an all around inability to stop everyone on Minny's team from scoring. Which may be at the focus of the RJ criticism. As he has had a tough year in that regard. Once again, my only point is that RJ needs to do other things besides score or shoot. He needs to set others up, play more energetic defense, cut down on bad TO's and add more hustle plays like getting loose balls. If he doesn't, it will assure that Thibs will go with others to close and that Knick fans will question their commitment to his development.

I think it was one of those games that happens during an 82 game NBA regular season. Not saying the Knicks played great D and the Wolves shot crazy good anyway. But sometimes a bad game is just a bad game.

But I know "fans" need to autopsy every loss, declare a team can't perform like that in the postseason (duh), fix the team for next year, and most importantly pile on the appointed boogeyman given the slightest provocation (like 4 TOs), and I realize NOT doing that and finding it comical when it happens puts me as odds with most other "fans".

As it pertains to RJ, again the macro view informs my expectations. I don't expect Barrett to suddenly become the player people want him to be. IF it happens, it will likely happen slowly and non-linearly.

I think there are some signs 2022-23 progress was made and is being made, but he's just not going to become Josh Hart II overnight because someone thinks he should flip a switch and do the things he does.

I just can't wrap my head around getting frustrated over what one should expect. He's GONNA to have less than desirable games over the last 9 and in the playoffs. Already baked into the pie (for me, anyway). But as you point out, he'll likely have some good ones too,.Just who he is right now.

Agree with most but I am sure you understand this is forum for fans to vent, talk about what could be better and yes, who they feel is the player they are most disappointed with. Do not think anyone was preaching to run him out of town before our next game. Just that he had yet another game in which he showed the deficiencies some have been waiting for him to improve on over the last three years.

Everyone here is hoping he turns it around by playoff time. But no fault in some pointing out games he shows he hasn't.

And yes, he is this years Randle. Playing okay but most expected more.