GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

I'm not sure what you are going for here. RJ has .488EFG% for the season. According to basketball reference. com, that's 12 worst for qualified players. If you go by true shooting which factors in his improved free throw shooting, he's bottom 27.

Philc1 wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

Didn’t RJ just play excellent helping us beat the nuggets 2 days ago?

Two days is a lifetime for some fans.

KnickDanger wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

Didn’t RJ just play excellent helping us beat the nuggets 2 days ago?

Two days is a lifetime for some fans.

I really want RJ to play better. He's not and wildly inconsistent. We feature him with the bench. He's not the defender Hart or Grimes or IQ are. Folks get sensitive about RJ hate/slander and sometimes its just a case of playing the guy who's playing poorly for an extended period of time LESS

joec32033 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

Open your eyes. Wait... are you blind? Shit if you are Im an even bigger ******* than normal. Assuming you can look however maybe try to "see"

Knicks play 9 guys. The two weakest players in the rotation are RJ and Obi and its not even close or debatable. Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Pop quiz... of ALL the guys in the rotation this year who's the LEAST efficient?

Who's got the WORST defensive metrics?

Guess who's got the WORST rebounding % on the team and doesnt play PG?

We ALL (that A L L with a GREEN CHECK BOX) WE ALL want RJ to play better. I'm just glad he's young and has another dozen years to become elite

Its not... its why RJ should be a bench guy. Start Hart who's got a real BB IQ. Play RJ off the bench. When Brunson/Randle sit its a more uptempo game and lets see RJ taking more of his shots vs. the other team's bench.
I really want RJ to play better. He's not and wildly inconsistent. We feature him with the bench. He's not the defender Hart or Grimes or IQ are. Folks get sensitive about RJ hate/slander and sometimes its just a case of playing the guy who's playing poorly for an extended period of time LESS

2 different perspectives. I currently see Grimes as the weak link in the starting rotation (agree about Obi off the bench). Grimes and RJ offer 2 different skill sets, but I think the illusion of lost opportunity will always make Grimes look shinier (same principle as everyone loving the backup quarterback).

Grimes played great against c level competition in summer league (although he choked in the chamionship game), and played well in an exhibition where no one is playing defense. Me personally, I think Grimes is a very good player but I think the illusion of lost opportunity really gets people thinking he is better than he is. I have seen no signs against NBA competition that Grimes offensively can perform like RJ.

I know you like to use efg%, so I'll use that...

Barett (47.7) has a higher career efg% than

Sprewell (46.4)
Rip Hamilton (46.9)
Caron Butler (46.9)
Ron Harper (46.8)
Starks (47.6)
Horton Tucker (47.5)
Tracy McGrady (47)

And is in range of:
Houston (49.8)
Drexler (49.5)
Richmond (49.7)
Pierce (50)
Roy (49.2)
Anthony (48.5)
Wade (49.5)
Marion (50)
Butler (49.7)
Derozan (48.2)
Jason Richardson (50.2)
Wiggins (49)
Pippen (50.4)
Kukoc (49.2)
Majerle (50.5)
Glenn Robinson (48.5)
Mike Redd (50.3)
Larry Johnson (50.5)
Grant Hill (49.2)
Vince Carter (48.9)

Most stars seem to be at arouns the 49-51% mark (give or take), and guys that are fringe all stars seem to come in just below that (yes, I individually searched players-more than I listed- to get a sample size and I tried to keep to swing players. I probably looked at about 40 players-you'll just have to take my word for it)

Grimes is at 56.9 career.
AS a comparison, the only players that are up that high are a few superstars (Curry, Durant, Kawai, Klay) and specialized shooters or post players.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

Why are these numbers more relevant than him having the 12th worst efg% this year?

gradyandrew wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

Open your eyes. Wait... are you blind? Shit if you are Im an even bigger ******* than normal. Assuming you can look however maybe try to "see"

Knicks play 9 guys. The two weakest players in the rotation are RJ and Obi and its not even close or debatable. Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Pop quiz... of ALL the guys in the rotation this year who's the LEAST efficient?

Who's got the WORST defensive metrics?

Guess who's got the WORST rebounding % on the team and doesnt play PG?

We ALL (that A L L with a GREEN CHECK BOX) WE ALL want RJ to play better. I'm just glad he's young and has another dozen years to become elite

Its not... its why RJ should be a bench guy. Start Hart who's got a real BB IQ. Play RJ off the bench. When Brunson/Randle sit its a more uptempo game and lets see RJ taking more of his shots vs. the other team's bench.
I really want RJ to play better. He's not and wildly inconsistent. We feature him with the bench. He's not the defender Hart or Grimes or IQ are. Folks get sensitive about RJ hate/slander and sometimes its just a case of playing the guy who's playing poorly for an extended period of time LESS

2 different perspectives. I currently see Grimes as the weak link in the starting rotation (agree about Obi off the bench). Grimes and RJ offer 2 different skill sets, but I think the illusion of lost opportunity will always make Grimes look shinier (same principle as everyone loving the backup quarterback).

Grimes played great against c level competition in summer league (although he choked in the chamionship game), and played well in an exhibition where no one is playing defense. Me personally, I think Grimes is a very good player but I think the illusion of lost opportunity really gets people thinking he is better than he is. I have seen no signs against NBA competition that Grimes offensively can perform like RJ.

I know you like to use efg%, so I'll use that...

Barett (47.7) has a higher career efg% than

Sprewell (46.4)
Rip Hamilton (46.9)
Caron Butler (46.9)
Ron Harper (46.8)
Starks (47.6)
Horton Tucker (47.5)
Tracy McGrady (47)

And is in range of:
Houston (49.8)
Drexler (49.5)
Richmond (49.7)
Pierce (50)
Roy (49.2)
Anthony (48.5)
Wade (49.5)
Marion (50)
Butler (49.7)
Derozan (48.2)
Jason Richardson (50.2)
Wiggins (49)
Pippen (50.4)
Kukoc (49.2)
Majerle (50.5)
Glenn Robinson (48.5)
Mike Redd (50.3)
Larry Johnson (50.5)
Grant Hill (49.2)
Vince Carter (48.9)

Most stars seem to be at arouns the 49-51% mark (give or take), and guys that are fringe all stars seem to come in just below that (yes, I individually searched players-more than I listed- to get a sample size and I tried to keep to swing players. I probably looked at about 40 players-you'll just have to take my word for it)

Grimes is at 56.9 career.
AS a comparison, the only players that are up that high are a few superstars (Curry, Durant, Kawai, Klay) and specialized shooters or post players.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

Why are these numbers more relevant than him having the 12th worst efg% this year?

Why are his career numbers up to this point relevant? I was pretty clear as to why I used these numbers and why I used the players I did. I also felt it wasn't objective to pick a season. (Or stretch of) that can be manipulated fairly easily. For example, Barrett has an efg% of 51.2 since the all star game.

RJ will be fine, on or off the team. He’s a hard worker and a late bloomer. It will all click sometime in the future. For now we need someone who can break down a defense. He seems to fit in nicely with hart and hart in that second unit. This will put more responsibility on thibs to manage the rotation, but so far he’s been doing a great job.

In thibs I trust (for now)

joec32033 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

Open your eyes. Wait... are you blind? Shit if you are Im an even bigger ******* than normal. Assuming you can look however maybe try to "see"

Knicks play 9 guys. The two weakest players in the rotation are RJ and Obi and its not even close or debatable. Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Pop quiz... of ALL the guys in the rotation this year who's the LEAST efficient?

Who's got the WORST defensive metrics?

Guess who's got the WORST rebounding % on the team and doesnt play PG?

We ALL (that A L L with a GREEN CHECK BOX) WE ALL want RJ to play better. I'm just glad he's young and has another dozen years to become elite

Its not... its why RJ should be a bench guy. Start Hart who's got a real BB IQ. Play RJ off the bench. When Brunson/Randle sit its a more uptempo game and lets see RJ taking more of his shots vs. the other team's bench.
I really want RJ to play better. He's not and wildly inconsistent. We feature him with the bench. He's not the defender Hart or Grimes or IQ are. Folks get sensitive about RJ hate/slander and sometimes its just a case of playing the guy who's playing poorly for an extended period of time LESS

2 different perspectives. I currently see Grimes as the weak link in the starting rotation (agree about Obi off the bench). Grimes and RJ offer 2 different skill sets, but I think the illusion of lost opportunity will always make Grimes look shinier (same principle as everyone loving the backup quarterback).

Grimes played great against c level competition in summer league (although he choked in the chamionship game), and played well in an exhibition where no one is playing defense. Me personally, I think Grimes is a very good player but I think the illusion of lost opportunity really gets people thinking he is better than he is. I have seen no signs against NBA competition that Grimes offensively can perform like RJ.

I know you like to use efg%, so I'll use that...

Barett (47.7) has a higher career efg% than

Sprewell (46.4)
Rip Hamilton (46.9)
Caron Butler (46.9)
Ron Harper (46.8)
Starks (47.6)
Horton Tucker (47.5)
Tracy McGrady (47)

And is in range of:
Houston (49.8)
Drexler (49.5)
Richmond (49.7)
Pierce (50)
Roy (49.2)
Anthony (48.5)
Wade (49.5)
Marion (50)
Butler (49.7)
Derozan (48.2)
Jason Richardson (50.2)
Wiggins (49)
Pippen (50.4)
Kukoc (49.2)
Majerle (50.5)
Glenn Robinson (48.5)
Mike Redd (50.3)
Larry Johnson (50.5)
Grant Hill (49.2)
Vince Carter (48.9)

Most stars seem to be at arouns the 49-51% mark (give or take), and guys that are fringe all stars seem to come in just below that (yes, I individually searched players-more than I listed- to get a sample size and I tried to keep to swing players. I probably looked at about 40 players-you'll just have to take my word for it)

Grimes is at 56.9 career.
AS a comparison, the only players that are up that high are a few superstars (Curry, Durant, Kawai, Klay) and specialized shooters or post players.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

I have seen no signs against NBA competition that Grimes offensively can perform like RJ.

The question remains. When do we start to distribute some of the 16 shots being taken by the lest efficient guy we have to other's who have shot the ball better all year? That's it man. Its really a very simple discussion that doesnt need stats from guys who played 20+ years ago.

joec32033 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Not really, RJ isnt playing well enough to start.

Um...

Yes he is.

He's only 22 years old but yet averaging 20 Points off .468% from the field since the All-Star break and averaging 20 points throughout the entire season.

"RJ ISN'T PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO START".

Give me a break.

Thank the basketball Gods Coach Thibs doesn't have your mindset because then kids like R.J. wouldn't be allowed to start, wouldn't be allowed to develop, wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and would be STUCK ON THE BENCH.

Open your eyes. Wait... are you blind? Shit if you are Im an even bigger ******* than normal. Assuming you can look however maybe try to "see"

Knicks play 9 guys. The two weakest players in the rotation are RJ and Obi and its not even close or debatable. Another Kobe like performance last night. Thibs couldnt get RJ out of the game fast enough. 4 TOs, 4 PFs and 4 baskets made. There's a word for that... its trash. Trash with a green check mark.

Pop quiz... of ALL the guys in the rotation this year who's the LEAST efficient?

Who's got the WORST defensive metrics?

Guess who's got the WORST rebounding % on the team and doesnt play PG?

We ALL (that A L L with a GREEN CHECK BOX) WE ALL want RJ to play better. I'm just glad he's young and has another dozen years to become elite

Its not... its why RJ should be a bench guy. Start Hart who's got a real BB IQ. Play RJ off the bench. When Brunson/Randle sit its a more uptempo game and lets see RJ taking more of his shots vs. the other team's bench.
I really want RJ to play better. He's not and wildly inconsistent. We feature him with the bench. He's not the defender Hart or Grimes or IQ are. Folks get sensitive about RJ hate/slander and sometimes its just a case of playing the guy who's playing poorly for an extended period of time LESS

2 different perspectives. I currently see Grimes as the weak link in the starting rotation (agree about Obi off the bench). Grimes and RJ offer 2 different skill sets, but I think the illusion of lost opportunity will always make Grimes look shinier (same principle as everyone loving the backup quarterback).

Grimes played great against c level competition in summer league (although he choked in the chamionship game), and played well in an exhibition where no one is playing defense. Me personally, I think Grimes is a very good player but I think the illusion of lost opportunity really gets people thinking he is better than he is. I have seen no signs against NBA competition that Grimes offensively can perform like RJ.

I know you like to use efg%, so I'll use that...

Barett (47.7) has a higher career efg% than

Sprewell (46.4)
Rip Hamilton (46.9)
Caron Butler (46.9)
Ron Harper (46.8)
Starks (47.6)
Horton Tucker (47.5)
Tracy McGrady (47)

And is in range of:
Houston (49.8)
Drexler (49.5)
Richmond (49.7)
Pierce (50)
Roy (49.2)
Anthony (48.5)
Wade (49.5)
Marion (50)
Butler (49.7)
Derozan (48.2)
Jason Richardson (50.2)
Wiggins (49)
Pippen (50.4)
Kukoc (49.2)
Majerle (50.5)
Glenn Robinson (48.5)
Mike Redd (50.3)
Larry Johnson (50.5)
Grant Hill (49.2)
Vince Carter (48.9)

Most stars seem to be at arouns the 49-51% mark (give or take), and guys that are fringe all stars seem to come in just below that (yes, I individually searched players-more than I listed- to get a sample size and I tried to keep to swing players. I probably looked at about 40 players-you'll just have to take my word for it)

Grimes is at 56.9 career.
AS a comparison, the only players that are up that high are a few superstars (Curry, Durant, Kawai, Klay) and specialized shooters or post players.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

Why are these numbers more relevant than him having the 12th worst efg% this year?

Why are his career numbers up to this point relevant? I was pretty clear as to why I used these numbers and why I used the players I did. I also felt it wasn't objective to pick a season. (Or stretch of) that can be manipulated fairly easily. For example, Barrett has an efg% of 51.2 since the all star game.

RJ efg% this season is higher than his career average so it's not like I was cherry picking a state to make him look bad.

Your first group of players are guys from 20 years ago and a guy who can't get off the bench in THT, not relevant at all.

It's a similar stretch with the second group. RJ averaging more 3 point attempts than Allan Houston is a big red flag.

The relevance of the guys this year is that most of them are rookies. Nalod has been convincing saying that RJ is young and there's some potential upside still. His improvement in free throw shooting all season and 2 point shooting as of late are positives. I don't think RJ can be removed as a starter without tanking his trade value. My point is if the Knicks can trade RJ for a better player this summer, they should examine it. I don't feel that way about Randle Brunson or Robinson who all provide great value at their salary. Grimes and IQ are pretty close as well.

If there's some stat or metric that shows RJ contributes to winning, please share it.

fishmike wrote:I looked at some numbers and regarding Thibs and making adjustments and its definitely happening. Josh Hart is surely helping that.

Since Feb started RJ has played in 21 games and 10x failed to log 30 minutes.
In 21-22 season RJ played 70 games and 14x failed to log 30 minutes.

You know these are crunchtime minutes where Thibs is going with Hart/IQ over RJ.

Conclusion? Thibs is already adjusting and RJ's minutes are shrinking.

Yes! Thibs has lessoned RJ’s minutes and his shooting % is up, he is taking less 3’s, makes on or two bone head turnovers trying to create and the team is doing very well.
Like wise Grimes Shooting has been off for some time prior. Yet he is not benching the kid. Thibs is developing and working on RJ to get him to learn his playmaking duties.
IQ is shooting very well and finishing. Not sure the debate and the RJ hate cycle continues because Thibs has him playing more efficiently the back 3rd of the season. Season long stats don’t tell everything if a player is trending due to changes.

We are not losing a championship because of RJ.
Season has us trending to playoffs and 5 or 6th season because they are winning more, and RJ is a part of the formula.
So is JHart, IQ and Grimes!!!!

IHart been playing so much better than his stats for the season will tell you as one example.

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Maybe I’m that old guy who trust his eyes over stats. Stats and metrics has its place. As an engineer I understand how you can use stats to show projections or progress. But also as a person who played the game, the stats only tell part of the story. And stats can be misleading.

RJ will be fine, on or off the team. He’s a hard worker and a late bloomer. It will all click sometime in the future. For now we need someone who can break down a defense. He seems to fit in nicely with hart and hart in that second unit. This will put more responsibility on thibs to manage the rotation, but so far he’s been doing a great job.

In thibs I trust (for now)

So as a guy who's played the game you are cool with your coach giving all the shots to some kid who's bricking like crazy cause he's a late bloomer yeah?

Coach: "you just keep hustling and playing D and getting rebounds and make sure RJ keeps getting his shots... that's the plan"
YOU: "awesome! I know he's click soon!"

Kinda like that right?

As a coach? Yes I’m fine with it.
As a player? No I’m not fine with it.

All coaches have a political line they have to walk, even thibs. Also the FO has proved me wrong. They seem to push all the right buttons.

As a player, I may not like it but I still have to play the game and be the best version of myself on the court. A player should play. A coach should coach. Do your job.