martin wrote:Interesting read

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/3/8338409/willie-cauley-stein-defense-nba-draft-2015

Nice find......it's amazing how people dislike Stein. He's exactly what we need now and even 10 yrs from now.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Interesting read

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/3/8338409/willie-cauley-stein-defense-nba-draft-2015

Nice find......it's amazing how people dislike Stein. He's exactly what we need now and even 10 yrs from now.

This thread is so long now that we've forgotten all the great supporting info we've posted in this thread earlier on. Just go back thru it and you'll find all kinds of info we've posted. In the end it all comes down to how you want to build your team. Phil has talked about the need to build with great defense and he's been very specific about the team's needs. WCS fills those needs. I don't know if Phil has been convinced otherwise since then but I doubt it. I think WCS came into NY and put on a show. He knows this is the highest pick he's been rumored to go at and that NY needs a big. No way he loafed thru his workout with the Knicks.

No doubt they put WCS thru the Triangle Primer course. I'm sure they showed him a whole lot of Triangle stuff to test drive his role in the offense. I'm sure they wanted to see him passing, cutting and presenting at the Elbow for jumpers. All kinds of very specific stuff relating to the Triangle. If he was able to show he could stroke it from midrange and hit the jump hook out of the post in the Triangle, that's probably all they needed to know.

smackeddog wrote:

jbeachboy wrote:

nixluva wrote:

jbeachboy wrote:

nixluva wrote:It's silly to go back to HS to try and assess what kind of player WCS has developed into now. Even his time at Kentucky isn't going to tell you the whole story. Why do you think teams went to Kentucky practices so much? There was more to see from all of their players. If we only went by the college season there'd be no need for further workouts. GM's and scouts know that these kids will get more intense training and diet help after the school year ends. Whatever talent they have is going to be enhanced by the time and training or exposed at the Combines and private workouts.

Right now WCS looks like he's on the up swing with a better chance to realize his full potential. That's what the training has exposed. He's got more talent than he had shown so far, which is a good thing for the Knicks who need a defensive big like WCS. If he has improved his offense he's a possible All Star level talent and worthy of the #4 pick.

i dont want a major project like stein at 4

What makes you think WCS is a "major project"? He's one of the most NBA ready prospects in the draft. He can start day one based on his defense alone. Even if he isn't a great offensive player in isolation, he's gonna score in transition, on alleyoops, put backs, dump offs and slashing to the hole. He's gonna get to the foul line off of his high activity level. He's gonna score on PnR plays as well. So all that and he just needs to mix in a few jump hooks and mid range jumpers. He's not going to need a boatload of touches to have a great impact. There's no need to fear WCS at #4 at all. He's one of the safest picks in the draft.

these were his weaknesses at the college level and now he has to try to fix this at the nba level on the fly, im hoping to see it, he is definitely what phil was describing in that meeting

Good luck in finding a draft pick for whom that doesn't apply

Exactly. ...they all have something to improve on.

What i like is when a draft pick is good at something and its a natural gift. Ok4 is a natural scorer. Russell is a natural shooter and passer. Stein can defend in his sleep. Its a natural gift that he has more than anything else. When you add technique on top of that you get a defense player of the year...Russell could be one of the best shooters in the nba....next to curry....

WaltLongmire wrote:Funny, but because Curry is such an amazing shooter, folks tend to forget that he averaged over 8 APG over the past 2 years.

People compare Russell to Curry because of his shooting ability, but he will be coming into the league with a reputations as an elite passer, something Curry never had when he was in college. In fact there were some who said Curry might have trouble being a PG in the NBA when he came out of Davidson.

I do remember some people saying this, which is probably the only reason he slipped to 7 past guys like Johnny Flynn, but dear god, if you watched him play, the kid could pass.

Watching Russell be similarly overplayed in college reminded me a lot of watching Curry. If he were to be paired with someone like Melo and get a little space to operate, he'd be tough to stop.

crzymdups wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Interesting read

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/3/8338409/willie-cauley-stein-defense-nba-draft-2015

Nice find......it's amazing how people dislike Stein. He's exactly what we need now and even 10 yrs from now.

I really like this kid. He has the potential to be special. Not really on offense - I think he can hold his own there. But when you have a 7'1" guy with that level of quickness and athleticism who KNOWS how to play defense and has played it at an elite level at an elite program...

This chart speaks volumes - look at Dwight Howard - Dwight is special because of his athleticism. He doesn't have a ton of offensive skills, but he's been to the Finals once and the WCF based on his defense and his ability to get open in an open floor NBA game. I sometimes forget that Dwight is actually only 6'10", maybe 6'9" in shoes. Willie is a legit 7' and more athletic than Dwight. He might be a bit of a project on offense, but not on defense. And the things he can do on the offensive end are things we need and every team needs.

I hope and pray D'Angelo Russell falls to 4, but if he does not, WCS is still my top pick there.

Outside of the top 3...Towns, Ok4 and Russell

I'm really stuck between Stein and Porzingus....

Stein is an elite defender against PnR's.....I believe teams will try not to run PnR on his man, because he can cause havic on the perimeter with his length and lateral agility. I don't think he has the strength to play 1 on 1 defense against grown men like Dwight Howard YET. But you can say the same exact things about Porzingus defense. He's an elite help defender with great lateral quickness, but will get pushed around when matchup up in the post, due to his weak lower body strength. In time, both guys will get stronger and become legit 1 on 1 defenders. So if Stein is a 10 on defense....Porzingus is a 9, only a small notch below Stein, as far as his help defense and shot blocking.

Offense is where these guys are like night and day. We can only hope Stein can develop an offensive game like Porzingus, but thats all based on hope. Porzingus is already at a high level offensively, with less miles.

I think as a PF, both will impact the defense as a rookie. On offense, Porzingus has more range and could be a go to guy in half court sets. He's also a person you throw lobs to with ease.

I like them both and see how both will impact the game. But something draws me back to Porzingus ceiling, which is higher than Steins.....And thats why he's the BPA at 4. Porzingus can reach Stein's defensive level. But I don't think Stein will ever be on Porzingus offensive level. This guy scores the ball like a guard running around screens. You think Curry and Reggie Miller are tough to guard off of screens.....Imagine a 7'1 guy running off screens.....Stein might be the only one who can come close to guarding him, and thats a big if.

Stein is great at chasing smaller guards because they can't shoot over him. Porzingus is longer, so he will be able to get his shot off on anybody from deep. Similar to how Dirk shoots with a hand in his face, but it goes in like nobody is there. When you don't have to worry about your shot being blocked, you will be more efficient.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/611597459408687104

crzymdups wrote:I really like this kid. He has the potential to be special. Not really on offense - I think he can hold his own there. But when you have a 7'1" guy with that level of quickness and athleticism who KNOWS how to play defense and has played it at an elite level at an elite program...

This chart speaks volumes - look at Dwight Howard - Dwight is special because of his athleticism. He doesn't have a ton of offensive skills, but he's been to the Finals once and the WCF based on his defense and his ability to get open in an open floor NBA game. I sometimes forget that Dwight is actually only 6'10", maybe 6'9" in shoes. Willie is a legit 7' and more athletic than Dwight. He might be a bit of a project on offense, but not on defense. And the things he can do on the offensive end are things we need and every team needs.

I hope and pray D'Angelo Russell falls to 4, but if he does not, WCS is still my top pick there.

Just look at that graph and you see WCS all by himself in terms of his athletic ability. For some reason his detractors aren't paying much attention to this. To suggest he's Jared Jeffries or Dan Gadzuric is comical. He's so much more of an Elite defensive talent than those guys. He puts all of that athletic talent to use on the defensive end and that's something this team needs badly. He would transform this team's defensive posture and range and that will lead to more wins IMO than just another offensive talent. What will it matter if we score more points and still give up 110 ppg?

nyk4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I really like this kid. He has the potential to be special. Not really on offense - I think he can hold his own there. But when you have a 7'1" guy with that level of quickness and athleticism who KNOWS how to play defense and has played it at an elite level at an elite program...

This chart speaks volumes - look at Dwight Howard - Dwight is special because of his athleticism. He doesn't have a ton of offensive skills, but he's been to the Finals once and the WCF based on his defense and his ability to get open in an open floor NBA game. I sometimes forget that Dwight is actually only 6'10", maybe 6'9" in shoes. Willie is a legit 7' and more athletic than Dwight. He might be a bit of a project on offense, but not on defense. And the things he can do on the offensive end are things we need and every team needs.

I hope and pray D'Angelo Russell falls to 4, but if he does not, WCS is still my top pick there.

Just look at that graph and you see WCS all by himself in terms of his athletic ability. For some reason his detractors aren't paying much attention to this. To suggest he's Jared Jeffries or Dan Gadzuric is comical. He's so much more of an Elite defensive talent than those guys. He puts all of that athletic talent to use on the defensive end and that's something this team needs badly. He would transform this team's defensive posture and range and that will lead to more wins IMO than just another offensive talent. What will it matter if we score more points and still give up 110 ppg?

his detractors aren't paying much attention to it because unlike alot of players there's been 3yrs of high level basketball that we can watch him at. i think wcs will be a good player, he'll be a starter, but i do not beleive he'll be this defensive dynamo that many are suspecting. i think he'll be a good defensive player but he's going to be a liability offensively and that's fine. he's worthy of a lotto pick, just closer towards 11-13 and not 4.

Why won't he be a Defensive Dynamo? He was a top defensive player and Kentucky used him mostly as a perimeter and help defender who played sideline to sideline and end to end. He used all of his great athletic ability to shut down PnR and still help out in the paint and on the boards. Not many players his size could do all of that at his level.

Defensive Rating

1. Karl-Anthony Towns Kentucky 78.1
2. Willie Cauley-Stein Kentucky 80.0

Defensive Win Shares

1. Willie Cauley-Stein Kentucky 3.4
2. Gary Payton Oregon St. 3.2

As for him being a liability on offense I suppose that is possible but in truth he's got more offense than guys like DeAndre Jordan or Andre Drummond. I think it's overstating it a bit to suggest he'd be a liability. He runs the floor and finishes better than any center. No Center is as fast or jumps higher. He's got great hands which he showed as a wide receiver in football. All of that and he actually shows that he has good form on his shots and great agility and footwork. I think he's got a great shot to improve offensively. You can't just go by what may have happened in college and stop using your brain to assess his skills and untapped ability.

Knicks1969 wrote:Some of the cats around here do t. Slur a stellar talent like Stein, because he does not jack up a lot of shots or overdribble like many of the players we used to have on the roster

yeah, you're right. that's definitely the reasoning from most cats.

CrushAlot wrote:The celtics reportedly think he will be on the board at 9 and are trying to trade with the Hornets. If the Knicks don't mess up at 4 I think they are right.

I really don't see WCS falling past 6. The Kings want him because he would fit in great with Cousins and Cousins has said he wants him as well.