GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

misterearl wrote:GodSaveTheKnicks - Melo is NOT the Ferrari of scoring. That is reserved for Michael Jordan and Melo is no Michael Jordan. Carmelo is closer to a Ford Expedition. High volume, large capacity and will get you across I-70 to Vail. But it may not look so jazzy on Broadway.

Al Harrington is more like a Range Rover. Looks cool but burns a lot of fuel.

People(including me) said the same thing about Paul Pierce when Boston was a lottery team.

Some guys need a little help to take them to the next level. Jordan did have that guy Pippen.

sadly no1 on our team is anywhere near Jordan's level. And I actually think Pippen is better than everyone on our team and Melo. I guess it's my turn to be mr gloom and doom

Mr Doom and Gloom? So stating your opinion is doom and gloom now?

Anyways the point was Paul Pierce has a ring and been to the finals 3 times now.

Melo2NYK wrote:

misterearl wrote:"Al Harrington has never carried a team, that much is for sure. Melo is a bonafide star and has dealt with that pressure."

Melo2NYK - where has Melo carried the Nuggets?There is no pressure in Denver. There is more pressure on airport maintenance people at DIA to keep the runways open so eager skiiers can make their vacation destinations

Carmelo is no savior.

I called him Carmelo Anthony. Not Jesus. Once again, the guy got a 17-65 roster to the playoffs the following year in his rookie season. And he's exponentially better as a ball player today. Unless you've been in a cave the past decade, you should know teams out West have had to post better than a .600 record to even make the playoffs. One to three games is usually all that seperates the 2nd seed from the 8th seed. You don't call that pressure?

On another note, the most productive Al Harrington has ever been in his career came on a Hawks team that was one of the leagues worse. Big difference between what I just described above and what Carmelo is/has been doing for the Nuggets.

these guys consistently fail to realize this... Carmelo took a 17 win Nuggets team from the basement of the NBA to making the playoffs in every single season since he's been in the NBA... that's EVERY YEAR HE'S BEEN IN THE NBA people... of those 7 full seasons, they were eliminated by the eventual champion Spurs or Lakers in 4 of them & made it to the WC Finals game 6 against Kobe's Lakers in a series where Melo impressed the hell out of his critics by giving Kobe Bryant all he could handle in that series... all this while never once having a legitimate star bigman to play with!... these guys wanna completely minimize Melo's impact that he's had on that Nuggets franchise & completely fail to consider these facts.

martin wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

martin wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

martin wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:You got to get to the playoffs in order to do something in it. And last time I checked, 31ppg, 9rpg, 3apg and 2spg on 46% shooting players in the playoffs don't grow on tree's.

Oh and you mean Andre Miller; the same Andre Miller that never made the playoffs before pairing up with Melo? Matters for your arguement certainly aren't helped when you consider the team had D-league caliber talent surrounding those 3 guys.

you keep swinging but missing. "31ppg, 9rpg, 3apg and 2spg on 46%" That was just the last year. Overall he is 24ppg, 7rpg, 42% during playoffs. Only advanced past first round once. ONCE.

BTW, Melo never got past first round until Chauncy shows up.

The aforementioned statline is much more indicative of Carmelo's play in the playoffs at this point in time than his career average.

Last year's stats are indicative of yet another first round exit.

Cool. I'll be here waiting for you to eat crow when he takes us to the 2nd round and beyond this year and in the future.

Let's be clear: Adding Melo for the right price to a team that already has Amare and Felton, etc should indeed get to the second round. that's not my point or the point of what we are discussing with Melo.

Generally speaking, Melo has not proven anything in the playoffs - flash in the pan one year and lots of first round exits. His conference is a tough one and his teams have been decimated with untimely injuries for sure, but Melo has also not done enough in my mind to qualify him as an elite all-around player, no way no how. He just doesn't play defense enough. He may be a top 10 player offensively, but is he also the right mix of player for the Knicks for the cap space and assets that we would need to get him?

That's the argument and the big picture.

You keep calling out Melo fof first round exits, but lets take a look at who the Nugs lost to:

2003-2004: Lost to the TWolves (TWolves were a better team. Garnett, Cassell and Spree)
2004-2005: Lost to the eventual Champs; San Antonio
2005-2006: Lost to the Clips. Nugs could have wone, I guess but the Clips were good this yr (Cassell, pre-injury Elton Brand, Maggette, etc)
2006-2007: Lost to the Spurs who, again, won the Championship.
2007-2008: Lost to the Lakers who lost in the finals
2008-2009: Lost to eventual champions; Lakers in the conference finals. This was the best team Carmelo ever played on.
2009-2010: Lost to the Jazz

I only see 2 yrs were they possibly could have won and that was against the Clips and the Jazz last year. All other years they had no shot to advance because they lost to better teams.

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:It's all about team

I'm picturing Amare with a bat and Eddie Curry sitting unsuspecting at the table.

Do you know all that they have to do to move a beached whale?

iSergio wrote:So Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler together is better than Carmelo Anthony? By that thinking, is David Lee and Al Harrington better than Amar'e Stoudemire?

The rule of thumb is that you can always get role players in the NBA. But a superstar is a superstar and that is a rare commodity. If Gallo and Chandler are traded to get Melo someone will fill the void to team up with Melo its guaranteed. Someone will step up.

Vmart wrote:

iSergio wrote:So Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler together is better than Carmelo Anthony? By that thinking, is David Lee and Al Harrington better than Amar'e Stoudemire?

The rule of thumb is that you can always get role players in the NBA. But a superstar is a superstar and that is a rare commodity. If Gallo and Chandler are traded to get Melo someone will fill the void to team up with Melo its guaranteed. Someone will step up.

Agreed.

TMS wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

misterearl wrote:"Al Harrington has never carried a team, that much is for sure. Melo is a bonafide star and has dealt with that pressure."

Melo2NYK - where has Melo carried the Nuggets?There is no pressure in Denver. There is more pressure on airport maintenance people at DIA to keep the runways open so eager skiiers can make their vacation destinations

Carmelo is no savior.

I called him Carmelo Anthony. Not Jesus. Once again, the guy got a 17-65 roster to the playoffs the following year in his rookie season. And he's exponentially better as a ball player today. Unless you've been in a cave the past decade, you should know teams out West have had to post better than a .600 record to even make the playoffs. One to three games is usually all that seperates the 2nd seed from the 8th seed. You don't call that pressure?

On another note, the most productive Al Harrington has ever been in his career came on a Hawks team that was one of the leagues worse. Big difference between what I just described above and what Carmelo is/has been doing for the Nuggets.

these guys consistently fail to realize this... Carmelo took a 17 win Nuggets team from the basement of the NBA to making the playoffs in every single season since he's been in the NBA... that's EVERY YEAR HE'S BEEN IN THE NBA people... of those 7 full seasons, they were eliminated by the eventual champion Spurs or Lakers in 4 of them & made it to the WC Finals game 6 against Kobe's Lakers in a series where Melo impressed the hell out of his critics by giving Kobe Bryant all he could handle in that series... all this while never once having a legitimate star bigman to play with!... these guys wanna completely minimize Melo's impact that he's had on that Nuggets franchise & completely fail to consider these facts.

If Melo gets credit for carrying his team to the playoffs...doesn't he get the blame for failing to get them further?

I hate it when people say things like "KG isn't that great, what has he ever done in the playoffs?" (when he was in Minnesota.
The principle is that you can't say a player is wack because of his TEAM's performance.
By that same principle...if you think it's not fair to say Melo is wack because his team usually exits in the first round.
Isn't it a bit of a contradiction to say that Melo is nice because his team made the playoffs every season?

Nene/Kenyon Martin are not in the same class as Amare but they're not scrubs either. Chauncey is slipping now but he's a veteran and wasn't bad his first few years in Denver. I think Lawson's emergence is making up a bit for Chauncey too.

Now if what you're REALLY saying is:

Melo is nice enough to drag a subpar cast to the playoffs but not even Jordan could beat championship caliber teams without elite superstar help like Pippen emerging and a quality big like Horace Grant. It's unfair to expect Melo without any true STAR teammate to beat Kobe/Pau or Duncan/Manu/Parker.

then that makes sense to a certain extent.

Melo + supporting cast in Denver

Chauncey/Lawson
Afflalo/JR Smith
Melo/Forbes
KMart (should be back once the playoffs start)/Harrington
Nene/Birdman

Say we trade Gallo + Fields + Curry's expiring + either a 1st round pick we get from trading AR to Houston or AR himself. Then we have:

Felton/Douglas
Chandler/Douglas/Walker (don't really like Chandler at the 2 but we have no 2 guard unless Buike somehow returns to form)
Melo/Bill Walker
Chandler/Shawne Williams
Amare/Turiaf/Mozgov

some issues

- put Chandler at the 2 you're asking Shawne Williams for a lot playing the 4 heavy minutes.
- Chandler at the 4 you have Douglas in heavy minutes which I hate the idea of right now with his shot selection though he did everything else well against the Wiz
- Amare at 4, then you're relying on big minutes from Turiaf (knee concerns) and Mozgov (sucking concerns)
- assuming we have the same cap as this season (57-58M), do we have $ to pay Chandler and Melo? It looks like there's no way.

If you think that we can get away with Gallo + Curry + 1st rounder (or AR), then it looks a whole lot better...for this season at least

Felton/Douglas
Fields/Walker/Chandler
Melo/Chandler
Chandler/Amare/Williams
Amare/Turiaf/Mozgov

But again, between Melo + Amare + Felton that's $47M

18,217,105 next season for Amare
21,666,666 for Melo ($65 M extension /3)
7,500,00 for Felton

It sounds like we're either headed for a lockout or the owners will win and get a lower cap. Let's assume the cap stays the same as this season, basically $58M. That leaves 11 M.

Mozgov 2,566,800. Down to $8,433,200
Douglas 1,145,640. Down to 7,287,560
Rautins 788,872. Down to 6,498,688

Roster so far looks like

PG:Felton/Douglas
SG: Douglas/Rautins
SF: Melo
PF: Amare
C: Mozgov

You have $6.5M + the MLE which is currently about $5-6M to fill out the rest of what will hopefully be a championship contender. Optimistically if we don't have to include Fields in a trade then you have.

PG:Felton/Douglas
SG: Fields/Douglas/Rautins
SF: Melo
PF: Amare
C: Mozgov

With 5.7M and the MLE. Problem is after next season Fields is not under contract as far as I'm aware of and neither is Felton.

Player option on Turiaf is 4.3 M for next season. He exercises that, then there's 2.2 M + MLE to fill out what looks like huge holes at SG, Backup SF, Backup PF...

The team has an option for Bill Walker at $916,000 and I could see him being an OK cheap backup for the 2,3 spots...
If Shawne Williams continues shooting lights out, what does he command as a FA?
I think it'd be great to keep Chandler because he can basically play at 2,3 or 4 depending on matchups, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Do you see whatever roster we can build with money leftover after our big 2.5 (Amare, Melo, Felton) being THAT much better than the best squads Melo ran with in Denver??

Assuming Melo is twice the player Gallo is, he will be making $20 M vs Gallos $4. Would Walsh be able to build a better team with Melo + 5-6 M + MLE or with Gallo + $16M + MLE?

Amateur GMs... who do you see being available to fill out backup F spots and a real starting NBA center? It looks pretty key that if we trade for Melo we have to keep Fields as his performance and fit on this team for less than $1M next season would be awesome. Things still look really dicey after next season even if we don't trade for Melo because Gallo will either suck or break out and get a raise...

Keeping Fields and AR makes a Melo trade much more doable, as AR could emerge as that cheap backup forward (or maybe even starter with Amare at C) without breaking the bank.
If you're going to trade Gallo you might as well trade Chandler since we can't keep him anyway and keep Fields/AR/Picks
Playing out the season and deciding who to keep seems 1,000 times better for the Knicks...

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:If Melo gets credit for carrying his team to the playoffs...doesn't he get the blame for failing to get them further?

I hate it when people say things like "KG isn't that great, what has he ever done in the playoffs?" (when he was in Minnesota.
The principle is that you can't say a player is wack because of his TEAM's performance.
By that same principle...if you think it's not fair to say Melo is wack because his team usually exits in the first round.
Isn't it a bit of a contradiction to say that Melo is nice because his team made the playoffs every season?

Nene/Kenyon Martin are not in the same class as Amare but they're not scrubs either. Chauncey is slipping now but he's a veteran and wasn't bad his first few years in Denver. I think Lawson's emergence is making up a bit for Chauncey too.

Now if what you're REALLY saying is:

Melo is nice enough to drag a subpar cast to the playoffs but not even Jordan could beat championship caliber teams without elite superstar help like Pippen emerging and a quality big like Horace Grant. It's unfair to expect Melo without any true STAR teammate to beat Kobe/Pau or Duncan/Manu/Parker.

then that makes sense to a certain extent.

it makes sense in every extent dude... Amare is so much better than Nene/Martin it's not even worthy of debate... to hold Carmelo at fault because he failed to get his teams past the Spurs & Lakers in 4 out of the 7 years he's carried his team to the Finals is completely remaining ignorant to the big picture... was KG any less of a player because he failed to get his T'Wolves past the 1st round before Spree & Cassell got to Minny? i fail to see how saying Melo is a nice player because he carried his teams to the playoffs every year he's been in the NBA is contractory in this discussion... you have to consider the fact that the Nuggets were a 17 win team before Melo got there & he played a huge role in getting them back to playoff contention ever since... how does that not deserve recognition? how does that in any way reflect negatively on Melo's ability as a basketball player? please explain this to me... like u just pointed out, even Michael Jordan needed the right supporting cast to take his teams to the next level... until Scottie Pippen got there, he never was able to get the Bulls past the 1st round of the playoffs either... Jordan had a grand total of 1 playoff win before Pippen showed up on the scene dude... so it wouldn't be fair to say that shouldn't have reflected negatively on Jordan's quality as a basketball player either? that's a silly debate.

Say we trade Gallo + Fields + Curry's expiring + either a 1st round pick we get from trading AR to Houston or AR himself. Then we have:

Felton/Douglas
Chandler/Douglas/Walker (don't really like Chandler at the 2 but we have no 2 guard unless Buike somehow returns to form)
Melo/Bill Walker
Chandler/Shawne Williams
Amare/Turiaf/Mozgov

some issues

- put Chandler at the 2 you're asking Shawne Williams for a lot playing the 4 heavy minutes.
- Chandler at the 4 you have Douglas in heavy minutes which I hate the idea of right now with his shot selection though he did everything else well against the Wiz
- Amare at 4, then you're relying on big minutes from Turiaf (knee concerns) and Mozgov (sucking concerns)
- assuming we have the same cap as this season (57-58M), do we have $ to pay Chandler and Melo? It looks like there's no way.

If you think that we can get away with Gallo + Curry + 1st rounder (or AR), then it looks a whole lot better...for this season at least

Felton/Douglas
Fields/Walker/Chandler
Melo/Chandler
Chandler/Amare/Williams
Amare/Turiaf/Mozgov

But again, between Melo + Amare + Felton that's $47M

18,217,105 next season for Amare
21,666,666 for Melo ($65 M extension /3)
7,500,00 for Felton

It sounds like we're either headed for a lockout or the owners will win and get a lower cap. Let's assume the cap stays the same as this season, basically $58M. That leaves 11 M.

Mozgov 2,566,800. Down to $8,433,200
Douglas 1,145,640. Down to 7,287,560
Rautins 788,872. Down to 6,498,688

Roster so far looks like

PG:Felton/Douglas
SG: Douglas/Rautins
SF: Melo
PF: Amare
C: Mozgov

You have $6.5M + the MLE which is currently about $5-6M to fill out the rest of what will hopefully be a championship contender. Optimistically if we don't have to include Fields in a trade then you have.

PG:Felton/Douglas
SG: Fields/Douglas/Rautins
SF: Melo
PF: Amare
C: Mozgov

With 5.7M and the MLE. Problem is after next season Fields is not under contract as far as I'm aware of and neither is Felton.

Player option on Turiaf is 4.3 M for next season. He exercises that, then there's 2.2 M + MLE to fill out what looks like huge holes at SG, Backup SF, Backup PF...

The team has an option for Bill Walker at $916,000 and I could see him being an OK cheap backup for the 2,3 spots...
If Shawne Williams continues shooting lights out, what does he command as a FA?
I think it'd be great to keep Chandler because he can basically play at 2,3 or 4 depending on matchups, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Do you see whatever roster we can build with money leftover after our big 2.5 (Amare, Melo, Felton) being THAT much better than the best squads Melo ran with in Denver??

Assuming Melo is twice the player Gallo is, he will be making $20 M vs Gallos $4. Would Walsh be able to build a better team with Melo + 5-6 M + MLE or with Gallo + $16M + MLE?

Amateur GMs... who do you see being available to fill out backup F spots and a real starting NBA center? It looks pretty key that if we trade for Melo we have to keep Fields as his performance and fit on this team for less than $1M next season would be awesome. Things still look really dicey after next season even if we don't trade for Melo because Gallo will either suck or break out and get a raise...

Keeping Fields and AR makes a Melo trade much more doable, as AR could emerge as that cheap backup forward (or maybe even starter with Amare at C) without breaking the bank.
Playing out the season and deciding who to keep seems 1,000 times better for the Knicks...

i've proposed this several times before, but the most i would give up to get Melo here would be a choice of 2 from the Gallo/Wilson/AR trio along with Curry & Buike's expirings, both our 2nd round picks, & either a purchased 1st round pick or cash considerations (which DEN could easily parlay into an extra pick on draft night as teams regularly do)... that would still leave the Knicks with a very solid surrounding cast around Melo & Amare to be considered as a viable Finals contender... as to future flexibility to make other signings, if you have 2 max players on the payroll there's only so much u can do to add on other impact players going forward... that would be true regardless if we were talking about Melo or any other player making his level money... there were guys around here excited to sign Joe Johnson as a plan B this summer for crying out loud & now everyone's afraid to take a chance on Carmelo Anthony? i don't get this reasoning... Melo is way better than Joe Johnson in my view... there were also many people pining for us to re-sign David Lee because they said Lee at $9-10M per year is a much better value than Amare Stoudamire at the max this summer too, & yet now they're all afraid to take a chance on adding Melo to this squad because of the money he'd command... i think just looking at straight #'s is misleading when we determine a players' value... u can easily see the impact that adding a max player like Amare has done to this franchise... IMO Carmelo Anthony has proven himself worthy of max level dollars, & adding him to this team would have another drastic positive impact that would go way beyond just the added fantasy stats that he puts up... many of you obviously don't feel the same way & seem to feel that Melo doesn't stack up to the Kevin Durant's & Dirk Nowitzki's of the NBA... i completely disagree, i think Melo is easily on a par as those guys & would have no problem trading away a couple of our best young players to get Melo here.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

martin wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

martin wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:You got to get to the playoffs in order to do something in it. And last time I checked, 31ppg, 9rpg, 3apg and 2spg on 46% shooting players in the playoffs don't grow on tree's.

Oh and you mean Andre Miller; the same Andre Miller that never made the playoffs before pairing up with Melo? Matters for your arguement certainly aren't helped when you consider the team had D-league caliber talent surrounding those 3 guys.

you keep swinging but missing. "31ppg, 9rpg, 3apg and 2spg on 46%" That was just the last year. Overall he is 24ppg, 7rpg, 42% during playoffs. Only advanced past first round once. ONCE.

BTW, Melo never got past first round until Chauncy shows up.

The aforementioned statline is much more indicative of Carmelo's play in the playoffs at this point in time than his career average.

Last year's stats are indicative of yet another first round exit.

Cool. I'll be here waiting for you to eat crow when he takes us to the 2nd round and beyond this year and in the future.

Let's be clear: Adding Melo for the right price to a team that already has Amare and Felton, etc should indeed get to the second round. that's not my point or the point of what we are discussing with Melo.

Generally speaking, Melo has not proven anything in the playoffs - flash in the pan one year and lots of first round exits. His conference is a tough one and his teams have been decimated with untimely injuries for sure, but Melo has also not done enough in my mind to qualify him as an elite all-around player, no way no how. He just doesn't play defense enough. He may be a top 10 player offensively, but is he also the right mix of player for the Knicks for the cap space and assets that we would need to get him?

That's the argument and the big picture.

You keep calling out Melo fof first round exits, but lets take a look at who the Nugs lost to:

2003-2004: Lost to the TWolves (TWolves were a better team. Garnett, Cassell and Spree)
2004-2005: Lost to the eventual Champs; San Antonio
2005-2006: Lost to the Clips. Nugs could have wone, I guess but the Clips were good this yr (Cassell, pre-injury Elton Brand, Maggette, etc)
2006-2007: Lost to the Spurs who, again, won the Championship.
2007-2008: Lost to the Lakers who lost in the finals
2008-2009: Lost to eventual champions; Lakers in the conference finals. This was the best team Carmelo ever played on.
2009-2010: Lost to the Jazz

I only see 2 yrs were they possibly could have won and that was against the Clips and the Jazz last year. All other years they had no shot to advance because they lost to better teams.

dude, you just make my point for me. Those two years, that's when Melo could have stepped up and cemented himself as an elite player. Or any of the other teams against really good teams, but he didn't and that's why he is not elite all-around.