Marv wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Marv wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I guess at least some doctors are seeing ventilators are not doing any good

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/

Exactly what I said above, the patients have low blood oxygen levels (because their blood isnt carrying oxygen) but they are not grasping for breath (typical use case for intubation).

dude honestly. if u have to be this defensive and petty over and over again take a break and take some account of yourself and then try to come back with a little more awareness of how you’re coming across.

Did you even read the article? Why is providing information against the dominant narrative considered defensive and petty on this forum?

oh i don’t know. maybe because you can’t take being corrected by a bonafide expert who’s puttting his knowledge, expertise and life on the line every moment to take the front line against this devastation. who the **** are you again?

this unfortunately is the part of the problem. doctors occupy a position of trust in our society which is both blind and ignorant. so he is a bona fide expert who doesn't have to defend his position? This is exactly why science gets bungled by these entitled ****s and their epistemic arrogance. doctors are not research scientists, they have no expertise in understanding why a drug does what it does. Doctors get certified for memorizing a bunch of if-then-lese type deterministic logic and they are allowed to occupy a position of entitlement and arrogance because of people like you. me I am just someone who did research science in human physiology (in my past), but what the **** could I possibly know?

I do appreciate the risks that medical workers take everyday during a pandemic (including my wife) and for that I am thankful to them. however unlike you, I don't think it makes them infallible.

I wish you and your precocious doctor well, in your fight against the virus. my apologies for trying to inform people

adieu

smackeddog wrote:

firefly wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

firefly wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:

martin wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:Re hydroxychloroquine stack - I'm more curious as to why MSM is so worried about us as to villify the drug. I've never really felt that they look out for us. Almost like when someone who usually ignores you starts being real friendly and you're like "What do you want?" I wonder if it is more about the drug being generic (no real money to be made in it) and a vaccine (which will take a while) being very profitable (and patentable.) That said, some of the other treatments (e.g. some kind of plasma one) seem very promising thus far.

The MSM is not vilifying the drug, they are vilifying the snake oil salesman messenger who is telling you to take the drug for no apparent good reason.

Dr Fauci and Dr Brix are not telling anyone to take the drug. Generally, scientists are not telling you to take the drug or that it is a suitable for covid patients.

There is a clear and very purposeful protocol - path - to making sure a drug is AOK for patients. Just because a drug is OK for one purpose does not mean it should be used willy nilly for other purposes, ask your doctor about that and the risks involved. This is science and drugs 101 and people like Dr Fauci and others know this, have lived it their entire lives, because they are not snake oil salesman.

Trump keeps rhetorically asking while touting the drug, "What have you got to loose"? Your life. There are known side effects - deadly ones - which are never simultaneously discusses. When you are prescribed a drug or when you and your doctor discuss possible drugs to take with any affliction, side effects are and should ALWAYS be discussed, and they are particular from patient to patient.

We have a lot of dumb dumbs in American. They ingest Tide pods. No need to rush the airwaves on something that is not FDA and Dr Fauci approved. Listen to him.

Again, would you take financial advice from your family physician? I know some good uses for vegetable oil from cooking (plus I'm an engineer!) but would never recommend you put it in your car and ask you "What have you got to lose?"

It's not the drug itself, it's the message and messenger.

Wash you hands, wear a mask and gloves while going out, keep your distance, don't gather, don't eat Tide pods, drink lots of water with Vitamin C, keep breathing deep, and know that when you have that morning coffee and it smells like heaven, it's another day you likely don't have symptoms. Like that

It all comes down to a doctor Martin. No one is saying to do anything.
It is not MSM's job to tell us what to take. They are not doctors.
Niether is Trump's. But both have the right to say "You can speak to your doctor about this."

If my physician told me about a stock and said "Why don't you speak to your financial advisor about it if it interests you." I might, but I'm not going to listen to him about buying stock anymore than CNN or The President about taking or not taking a drug treatment. But I might speak to my doctor about it.

Trump keeps saying that you should take the drug, what have you got to lose. MSM keeps saying that Trump is whack for saying it. That’s the bottom line.

You are not getting the underlying facts right.

Trump is definitely whack for suggesting people start taking this drug.

That said there is a new study or two by the Chinese showing a different hypothesis for the how the virus works. Previously everyone thought it makes it harder for people to breathe, their lungs get damaged and stop working. Meaning they can't take air in anymore. The new study shows that the virus doesn't directly attack the lungs at all. Instead it attacks red blood cell in our blood because it needs a type of organic compound called porphyrins to carry out it's own life cycle. In human blood red blood cells carry porphryins which combine with Iron ions to form Haeme a pigment which combines with beta-globin(a protein) to form hemoglobin. This virus is releasing the iron ions from hemoglobin and rendering the red blood cells incapable of carrying oxygen to the tissues and organs from the lungs. As a secondary impact the liberated free radicals (iron ions) can cause oxidative damage to your body and especially the lungs. The body has some built in mechanisms to capture these ions and deal with them (in the lungs) but those get overwhelmed as the level of free iron ions in the blood rise. The ensuing damage to the lungs is what is responsible for the ground glass like opacity shown by the lungs x-rays of terminal COVID-19 patients. Previously it was being treated as proof of pneumonia in the lungs which creates similar opacity but it's usually limited to one side of the lungs. The COVID19 damage is bilateral (both sides) and not caused by pneumonia - according to this study.

If this study is proved right by peer review, then Trump in all his ****-brained ignorance may accidentally be proved right. Because chloroquine does helps the absorptions of zinc into body cells and increases the intra-cellular ph levels both of which a detrimental to the release of viral DNA. Also if the study proves right intubation to increase air flow to the lungs has zero-impact until almost at he end, when in most cases it's already too late.

Can you post a link to the study?

direct link to a pdf file

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pstorage-chemrxiv-899408398289/22129965/covid19202000328EN1.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1HVOW5V0CpoeR3sbf0vMqBi_xqIkqcr_6rHCLwZaXrT6wGGkt5DUeLzUM

Ok, several points here:

1. I'm a doctor. Please do not take any drug recommended by a layperson based on empirical or unknown evidence. Ever. This is doubly true of any orange coloured humans or anyone with known history of malignant lying.

2. This paper that you've posted, which I've read, was written by two biochemists, not medical doctors. Thier research has a great deal of value but, in fact, it is not meant to be correlated to human or treatment recommendations. They specifically state that they feel that an important part of the research into Covid-19 should include a biochemical breakdown of its makeup and weak points. They are of course correct in this.

3. Their paper, which is very good, is not based on any research into humans who have contracted Covid-19. They make this very clear. It is research into the virus. Any recommendations that they manage to glean from their research then needs to be reviewed and follows up in actual clinical trials. This is several million miles away from any drug recommendations.

4. The idea that this would prove Trump right is also a fallacy. Even if, in the future, hydroxychloroquine is proven useful in the fight against Covid-19, Trump's speech and behaviour was still criminally negligent. People died because of him, this has been proven.

5. My post here is a reminder in and of itself of why you wait for doctors and clinical research professionals to collate and translate clinically important data. It is so easy to misunderstand the value of something, especially if you have skin in the game, which Trump certainly does, and doubly so if you're someone without the critical analysis tools to use the data, which Trump eminently does not possess.

6. In my ITU we have stopped treating patients with azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine. We have not seen results in our sick cohort and have focused on other measures including supportive ventilation and other-organ protection.

7. I'd like to make a side point which I feel is important. You said " Also if the study proves right intubation to increase air flow to the lungs has zero-impact until almost at he end, when in most cases it's already too late." This is patently untrue and shows a lack of understanding of why patients are ventilated in the first instance. Patients are ventilated because without immediate invasive ventilation, they would immediately die. Generally within minutes. They would not reach anywhere near a time of "almost at the end" because they would already be dead. Again, I'm not knocking the writers of this study, it is a study of the virus, and should not be used to extrapolate anything else.

I hope this helps. Please listen only to your doctor's. Stay safe, stay home, save lives.

To further accentuate 7, we have had patients intubated and extubated with Covid, meaning that the intubation saved them and sustained them untill they could breathe on their own. While, its grim once they require intubation, some do make it. Firefly, are you in NYC? How's it progressing from your POV?

Hey man, I'm actually in the UK (I'd rather not say where if you don't mind), In a specialist cardiac centre, so we're small with no ER dept. It's not great tbh. We originally had 23 beds in our ICU. We've already had to borrow an extra 14 ventilators over the 36 we have, and that's just to keep emergency cardiac surgery service going.

Patients are staying on ventilators a long time. Lung compliance goes down the toilet when the viral load in their lungs are high and the images on scans are the worst I've ever seen. We're finding we have to give them high amounts of oxygen just to maintain any decent oxygenation. And every day we go and retrieve the sickest patients from our local general hospitals. 80% of our nurses and doctors have been repurposed to service ICU and it's just getting harder. All leave is cancelled, all shifts are 13 hours long in full PPE (and were the lucky ones who still have PPE!). Morale and team spirit is still high thankfully but we all know we will all drop either from exhaustion or Covid at some point. Most people with families have made contingencies for where they will go when they finally catch it and can't go home anymore.

I'd say just in our unit we are averaging a death a day. We're a specialist unit so we deal with the sickest patients, quality not quantity ha. Side note over 10% of our intubated patients are under 40, with no comorbidities.

Thanks for the info, no matter how depressing/worrying. Is it true that if you get to the intubation stage, even if you survive it you’re likely to have permanent lung damage, that could lead to lung cancer further down the line? Or reliance on oxygen tanks? Or do patients pretty much recover?

I do hope you’re all taking care of yourselves as best you can.

Thanks man we are trying. It's just past 3am here. Taking a sec to pee and have a drink before I go back in. God it sucks. One family is on videocall saying goodbye to dad. They're singing to him and we're all bawling under our PPE hoping noone else notices as we look after everyone else.

Yes, it's sadly true any ventilation in bad for the lungs even "lung-protective settings" will have some negative impact on the ability of the lungs to expand in the future. I hadn't heard anything about lung cancer though, and physiologically I can't see the link, but then I haven't looked into it at all. So, no, having to escalate to a ventilator is a pretty bad sign. We don't want to. But when their O2 goes down and their co2 goes up we don't have a choice or they die. The value of the ventilator in these cases isn't so much that we force the air in (although we do) it's that we can change their inhaled oxygen levels. Atmospheric oxygen is about 21%, we can go up to 100% which is a lot more than the human body needs. It means we can adjust for all the damaged and destroyed lung tissue the virus hurts.

firefly wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

firefly wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

firefly wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:

martin wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:Re hydroxychloroquine stack - I'm more curious as to why MSM is so worried about us as to villify the drug. I've never really felt that they look out for us. Almost like when someone who usually ignores you starts being real friendly and you're like "What do you want?" I wonder if it is more about the drug being generic (no real money to be made in it) and a vaccine (which will take a while) being very profitable (and patentable.) That said, some of the other treatments (e.g. some kind of plasma one) seem very promising thus far.

The MSM is not vilifying the drug, they are vilifying the snake oil salesman messenger who is telling you to take the drug for no apparent good reason.

Dr Fauci and Dr Brix are not telling anyone to take the drug. Generally, scientists are not telling you to take the drug or that it is a suitable for covid patients.

There is a clear and very purposeful protocol - path - to making sure a drug is AOK for patients. Just because a drug is OK for one purpose does not mean it should be used willy nilly for other purposes, ask your doctor about that and the risks involved. This is science and drugs 101 and people like Dr Fauci and others know this, have lived it their entire lives, because they are not snake oil salesman.

Trump keeps rhetorically asking while touting the drug, "What have you got to loose"? Your life. There are known side effects - deadly ones - which are never simultaneously discusses. When you are prescribed a drug or when you and your doctor discuss possible drugs to take with any affliction, side effects are and should ALWAYS be discussed, and they are particular from patient to patient.

We have a lot of dumb dumbs in American. They ingest Tide pods. No need to rush the airwaves on something that is not FDA and Dr Fauci approved. Listen to him.

Again, would you take financial advice from your family physician? I know some good uses for vegetable oil from cooking (plus I'm an engineer!) but would never recommend you put it in your car and ask you "What have you got to lose?"

It's not the drug itself, it's the message and messenger.

Wash you hands, wear a mask and gloves while going out, keep your distance, don't gather, don't eat Tide pods, drink lots of water with Vitamin C, keep breathing deep, and know that when you have that morning coffee and it smells like heaven, it's another day you likely don't have symptoms. Like that

It all comes down to a doctor Martin. No one is saying to do anything.
It is not MSM's job to tell us what to take. They are not doctors.
Niether is Trump's. But both have the right to say "You can speak to your doctor about this."

If my physician told me about a stock and said "Why don't you speak to your financial advisor about it if it interests you." I might, but I'm not going to listen to him about buying stock anymore than CNN or The President about taking or not taking a drug treatment. But I might speak to my doctor about it.

Trump keeps saying that you should take the drug, what have you got to lose. MSM keeps saying that Trump is whack for saying it. That’s the bottom line.

You are not getting the underlying facts right.

Trump is definitely whack for suggesting people start taking this drug.

That said there is a new study or two by the Chinese showing a different hypothesis for the how the virus works. Previously everyone thought it makes it harder for people to breathe, their lungs get damaged and stop working. Meaning they can't take air in anymore. The new study shows that the virus doesn't directly attack the lungs at all. Instead it attacks red blood cell in our blood because it needs a type of organic compound called porphyrins to carry out it's own life cycle. In human blood red blood cells carry porphryins which combine with Iron ions to form Haeme a pigment which combines with beta-globin(a protein) to form hemoglobin. This virus is releasing the iron ions from hemoglobin and rendering the red blood cells incapable of carrying oxygen to the tissues and organs from the lungs. As a secondary impact the liberated free radicals (iron ions) can cause oxidative damage to your body and especially the lungs. The body has some built in mechanisms to capture these ions and deal with them (in the lungs) but those get overwhelmed as the level of free iron ions in the blood rise. The ensuing damage to the lungs is what is responsible for the ground glass like opacity shown by the lungs x-rays of terminal COVID-19 patients. Previously it was being treated as proof of pneumonia in the lungs which creates similar opacity but it's usually limited to one side of the lungs. The COVID19 damage is bilateral (both sides) and not caused by pneumonia - according to this study.

If this study is proved right by peer review, then Trump in all his ****-brained ignorance may accidentally be proved right. Because chloroquine does helps the absorptions of zinc into body cells and increases the intra-cellular ph levels both of which a detrimental to the release of viral DNA. Also if the study proves right intubation to increase air flow to the lungs has zero-impact until almost at he end, when in most cases it's already too late.

Can you post a link to the study?

direct link to a pdf file

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pstorage-chemrxiv-899408398289/22129965/covid19202000328EN1.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1HVOW5V0CpoeR3sbf0vMqBi_xqIkqcr_6rHCLwZaXrT6wGGkt5DUeLzUM

Ok, several points here:

1. I'm a doctor. Please do not take any drug recommended by a layperson based on empirical or unknown evidence. Ever. This is doubly true of any orange coloured humans or anyone with known history of malignant lying.

2. This paper that you've posted, which I've read, was written by two biochemists, not medical doctors. Thier research has a great deal of value but, in fact, it is not meant to be correlated to human or treatment recommendations. They specifically state that they feel that an important part of the research into Covid-19 should include a biochemical breakdown of its makeup and weak points. They are of course correct in this.

3. Their paper, which is very good, is not based on any research into humans who have contracted Covid-19. They make this very clear. It is research into the virus. Any recommendations that they manage to glean from their research then needs to be reviewed and follows up in actual clinical trials. This is several million miles away from any drug recommendations.

4. The idea that this would prove Trump right is also a fallacy. Even if, in the future, hydroxychloroquine is proven useful in the fight against Covid-19, Trump's speech and behaviour was still criminally negligent. People died because of him, this has been proven.

5. My post here is a reminder in and of itself of why you wait for doctors and clinical research professionals to collate and translate clinically important data. It is so easy to misunderstand the value of something, especially if you have skin in the game, which Trump certainly does, and doubly so if you're someone without the critical analysis tools to use the data, which Trump eminently does not possess.

6. In my ITU we have stopped treating patients with azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine. We have not seen results in our sick cohort and have focused on other measures including supportive ventilation and other-organ protection.

7. I'd like to make a side point which I feel is important. You said " Also if the study proves right intubation to increase air flow to the lungs has zero-impact until almost at he end, when in most cases it's already too late." This is patently untrue and shows a lack of understanding of why patients are ventilated in the first instance. Patients are ventilated because without immediate invasive ventilation, they would immediately die. Generally within minutes. They would not reach anywhere near a time of "almost at the end" because they would already be dead. Again, I'm not knocking the writers of this study, it is a study of the virus, and should not be used to extrapolate anything else.

I hope this helps. Please listen only to your doctor's. Stay safe, stay home, save lives.

To further accentuate 7, we have had patients intubated and extubated with Covid, meaning that the intubation saved them and sustained them untill they could breathe on their own. While, its grim once they require intubation, some do make it. Firefly, are you in NYC? How's it progressing from your POV?

Hey man, I'm actually in the UK (I'd rather not say where if you don't mind), In a specialist cardiac centre, so we're small with no ER dept. It's not great tbh. We originally had 23 beds in our ICU. We've already had to borrow an extra 14 ventilators over the 36 we have, and that's just to keep emergency cardiac surgery service going.

Patients are staying on ventilators a long time. Lung compliance goes down the toilet when the viral load in their lungs are high and the images on scans are the worst I've ever seen. We're finding we have to give them high amounts of oxygen just to maintain any decent oxygenation. And every day we go and retrieve the sickest patients from our local general hospitals. 80% of our nurses and doctors have been repurposed to service ICU and it's just getting harder. All leave is cancelled, all shifts are 13 hours long in full PPE (and were the lucky ones who still have PPE!). Morale and team spirit is still high thankfully but we all know we will all drop either from exhaustion or Covid at some point. Most people with families have made contingencies for where they will go when they finally catch it and can't go home anymore.

I'd say just in our unit we are averaging a death a day. We're a specialist unit so we deal with the sickest patients, quality not quantity ha. Side note over 10% of our intubated patients are under 40, with no comorbidities.

Thanks for the info, no matter how depressing/worrying. Is it true that if you get to the intubation stage, even if you survive it you’re likely to have permanent lung damage, that could lead to lung cancer further down the line? Or reliance on oxygen tanks? Or do patients pretty much recover?

I do hope you’re all taking care of yourselves as best you can.

Thanks man we are trying. It's just past 3am here. Taking a sec to pee and have a drink before I go back in. God it sucks. One family is on videocall saying goodbye to dad. They're singing to him and we're all bawling under our PPE hoping noone else notices as we look after everyone else.

Fuckin a man

Firefly:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TMZ_Sports/status/1249789987211620354

newyorknewyork wrote:

This would be my very first politically related post. If it can be viewed as such. What the **** is that vampire looking mother****er doing? These *******s are going to kill more people.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/RachelBitecofer/status/1250061091885002754