Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

djsunyc wrote:briggs - what is your opinion about russia's involvement in the election?

I hope Russia did not have involvement. If they did that doesn't speak highly of our current national cyber security. If true a lot of people should be fired and Obama should've stepped down.

What can you tell me about George Soros? That was Hillary's main financier

Obama should re-sign?! And you thought someone else was bonkers?!

If someone believes that the Russians hacked into our voting machines than the President of the U S should resign. That would mean our CIC failed to keep America safe. I personally don't think it happened but if it can be proven without doubt-- the top man has to take the fall

Two things: A) Did they say it was the voting machines? I thought it was the wiki leaks e-mail hacking that they were referring to. B) For years, Democrats have wanted paper trails in order to verify the votes of these voting machines but Republicans have stopped them from getting this done. If there were any voting machine problems, that's on the Republicans. But we'll never know if the voting machines recorded votes correctly, and Republicans seem to want it that way.

Also, polling stations, voting machines are under the control of individual States..That's why there are different voting rules and different voting machines across America..

That's a good point, though I think the control becomes even more local than that since the voting method differs at different precincts within each state.

How's the recount going? Is Hillary warmed up with hand and leg warmers in the bullpen and ready to go?

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/no_america_it_wasnt_russia_you_did_this_to_yourself_20161210

No, America, It Wasn’t Russia: You Did This to Yourself

By Juan Cole

The headlines scream, “Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House” and “Obama orders review of Russian Hacking during Presidential campaign.”

I don’t doubt that the Russian Federation employs hackers and PR people to influence public opinion and even election outcomes in other countries. So does the United States of America. But I am skeptical that anything the Russians did caused Donald Trump to be president.

It wasn’t like Trump was a Manchurian Candidate, a stealth plant in the US body politic who would only be operationalized once elected.

Trump was in plain view. He had all along been in plain view. His hatred for uppity or “nasty” women, his racism, his prickliness, his narcissism, his rich white boy arrogance and entitlement (apparently even to strange women and other men’s wives), his cronyism and his fundamental dishonesty were on display 24/7 during some 18 months of the campaign, and it wasn’t as though he were an unknown quantity before that.

Americans voted for him anyway. Slightly more Americans voted for him than for a respectable person like Mitt Romney. No Russians were holding a gun to their heads. And they knew, or should have known, what they were getting.

By a “black swan” fluke, a few tens of thousands of the Trump voters were distributed differently, state by state, than the McCain and Romney voters; and in some key states like Michigan Sec. Clinton did not do as well as Obama had, even if she was beloved in California and New York.

One of the cleverest things Trump said during the campaign was directed to African-American voters, asking what they had to lose by challenging the status quo and voting for him. It was a trick, of course, and they have everything to lose, both because the Republican Party’s economic policies aim to help rich people at the expense of workers and most African-Americans are working class, and because the GOP since Nixon has connived at attracting a white racist constituency, and succeeded.

But despite the dishonesty of the quip (which did not fool African-Americans one little bit), that kind of thinking appears to have been widespread. In some states, as many as 14 percent of the white working class deserted the Democratic Party compared to the previous two elections, and, worse, 21 percent of white working class voters who used to vote for Obama just stayed home. They weren’t being irrational. Things have been bad for them and they haven’t participated in the recovery after 2008 the way the stock market has. Their death rates have even increased.

Nor did any Russian hacking related to Wikileaks, if that is what happened, prove decisive. Clinton’s own polling people found the big turning point was when she called Trump voters a “basket of deplorables.” Americans don’t like being talked down to, and had already gotten rid of Romney for the same sin. The spectacle of Clinton taking hundreds of thousands of dollars to give a speech to the people who put them out of their homes in 2008-9 also turned many of them off so that they stayed home, while another section of them decided to take a chance on Trump. He will screw them over, but from their point of view, they worried that she might have, as well. Trump was promising to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs via protectionism, whereas everyone understood that Sec. Clinton’s first instinct was to do TPP and send more jobs to Asia.

So it was Clinton’s public persona and public positions that hurt her and depressed Democratic turnout in places like Detroit and Flint, not anything in Wikileaks (can anyone name even one newsworthy email?) Or on the other hand it was neofascist disinformation campaigns like spirit cooking and pizzagate. It wasn’t anything as rational as a Putin sting.

No, America had its eyes wide open. The Republican Party, the usual 61 million, voted for Trump, despite his vulgar talk and vulgar style of life. Since the GOP is mostly the party of Protestant whites plus about 40 million Catholics who think they are white, nobody over there too much minded the racism against minorities. There were some defections among the white Protestant married women from the GOP (either stay-at-homes or aisle-crossers) and there were some defections among the white working class from the Democratic Party. But those two may well have just cancelled each other out.

The GOP voted for a champion of the business classes, which Trump will be, in spades. And that is what everyone should expect. There is nothing surprising about it. The GOP wins nationally when it can add to its base of small and large businesspeople and farmers and exurbanites, and Trump managed to attract a few tens of thousands of other sorts of people in the districts where it happened to matter.

Russia doesn’t enter into it.

Good article. You can almost say America isn't as dumb as everyone thought.

Then again when Wikileaks happened Americans as a whole were more focused on the salacious stuff from 11yrs ago on a bus. Thanks to the Clinton failed campaign and the dishonest media trying their get ahead.

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

djsunyc wrote:briggs - what is your opinion about russia's involvement in the election?

I hope Russia did not have involvement. If they did that doesn't speak highly of our current national cyber security. If true a lot of people should be fired and Obama should've stepped down.

What can you tell me about George Soros? That was Hillary's main financier

Obama should re-sign?! And you thought someone else was bonkers?!

If someone believes that the Russians hacked into our voting machines than the President of the U S should resign. That would mean our CIC failed to keep America safe. I personally don't think it happened but if it can be proven without doubt-- the top man has to take the fall

You think all the ties to Russia from Trump and his people isn't enough??? You're only concerned if they can prove Election Machine Hacking??? You need to get your priorities straight! It's ALREADY bad enough that the Russians have been actively working to help elect Trump! Ask

Nixluva-- you're going to have a stroke. Relax. I voted for Trump because I feel he'd energize the President spot for the good of the country. The only thing I know about Russia is I'd rather be amiable and work together in areas of joint concern. Hillary was not going to do that-- she may even have put us in peril with Russia. you are probably lucky Trump is oresident and you just don't realize it

I know why you and others voted for Trump. I'm saying you got played as I was saying from day one that you couldn't trust Trump.

On the Russian issue you're position seems off base. Trump and MANY of his people have massive ties to Russia and they are not working in the best interests of the U.S.!!! For you to accept this and go ON talking some nonsense about Hillary putting us in peril is utter garbage.

The true danger is having a President who is in bed with Putin!!! How the F are you cool with that?

What do you want another cold war? the logic sucks on your part. Your saying the people who voted for Trump are against America because they want good relations with Russia. Your talking about Russia and you have a Democratic candidate that is deal uranium with them. How are you cool with that?

If you are not going to ignore facts, the Clinton, Russian, uranium deal talk have been proven to be nonsense..That is depending on if you accept generally accepted facts like 20 other people had a play in deciding that deal..Those type of facts..

I don't get the constant misrepresentation of people's records..It's like it can't be looked up..

djsunyc wrote:the hustle is now out in plain sight. alot of folks gravitate towards the alpha male. even if he's a bad person with bad intentions.

sometimes you have to take a few steps back to move forward (which is usually the case for misinformed people - it should really be taking 2 steps forward every time but i digress). we may suffer the next 4 years but this potentially could be the beginning of the downfall for the GOP party.

One would have thought that this process could have started after GBush left office but I don't think Obama brought out the hammer and swung hard enough. Hopefully it will happen the next time around

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

djsunyc wrote:briggs - what is your opinion about russia's involvement in the election?

I hope Russia did not have involvement. If they did that doesn't speak highly of our current national cyber security. If true a lot of people should be fired and Obama should've stepped down.

What can you tell me about George Soros? That was Hillary's main financier

Obama should re-sign?! And you thought someone else was bonkers?!

If someone believes that the Russians hacked into our voting machines than the President of the U S should resign. That would mean our CIC failed to keep America safe. I personally don't think it happened but if it can be proven without doubt-- the top man has to take the fall

Two things: A) Did they say it was the voting machines? I thought it was the wiki leaks e-mail hacking that they were referring to. B) For years, Democrats have wanted paper trails in order to verify the votes of these voting machines but Republicans have stopped them from getting this done. If there were any voting machine problems, that's on the Republicans. But we'll never know if the voting machines recorded votes correctly, and Republicans seem to want it that way.

Also, polling stations, voting machines are under the control of individual States..That's why there are different voting rules and different voting machines across America..

That's a good point, though I think the control becomes even more local than that since the voting method differs at different precincts within each state.

How's the recount going? Is Hillary warmed up with hand and leg warmers in the bullpen and ready to go?

However fraudulent the initial vote counting was (and we don't know), the recount is the same since they're not looking at the paper trail in so many precincts.

Agree about the paper votes, but never really thought much of the recount...If you do research on the voter suppression which took place before the election, you get a better understanding of what happened. Purged voting rolls, decreased polling locations (research Ari Berman on North Carolina), cross checking (See Greg Palast)...lots to learn about.

Recounts mean shyte if the numbers have already been limited. There were many cases in court about how GOP state and local governments were violating people's voting rights. In some ways the castrating of the Voting Rights Act a few years earlier was the killer, as it was exploited by those who wanted to limit voter participation. The most egregious example was NC, where a leaked memo had the GOP discussing how to limit the voting participation in their favor.

Fake news and disinformation was also designed to keep people home by hitting HRCs approval ratings. Bloomberg news had some leaked info about this from the Trump campaign...targets were women and African Americans.

Comey and the constant fake stories built up about the Russian hacks distributed by WikiLeaks also played a role.

Always get a laugh at Trumpistas who don't see the big picture...look upon this as a simple "landslide" for the GOP.

Clinton, who I was never a big fan of, is going to end up about 3M votes ahead...between 2.1-2.4%... so this was no landslide...and when you add all the other crap Clinton had to contend with it is amazing that she could pull in the support she did.

But then maybe I'm just spreading fake news...

WaltLongmire wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

djsunyc wrote:briggs - what is your opinion about russia's involvement in the election?

I hope Russia did not have involvement. If they did that doesn't speak highly of our current national cyber security. If true a lot of people should be fired and Obama should've stepped down.

What can you tell me about George Soros? That was Hillary's main financier

Obama should re-sign?! And you thought someone else was bonkers?!

If someone believes that the Russians hacked into our voting machines than the President of the U S should resign. That would mean our CIC failed to keep America safe. I personally don't think it happened but if it can be proven without doubt-- the top man has to take the fall

Two things: A) Did they say it was the voting machines? I thought it was the wiki leaks e-mail hacking that they were referring to. B) For years, Democrats have wanted paper trails in order to verify the votes of these voting machines but Republicans have stopped them from getting this done. If there were any voting machine problems, that's on the Republicans. But we'll never know if the voting machines recorded votes correctly, and Republicans seem to want it that way.

Also, polling stations, voting machines are under the control of individual States..That's why there are different voting rules and different voting machines across America..

That's a good point, though I think the control becomes even more local than that since the voting method differs at different precincts within each state.

How's the recount going? Is Hillary warmed up with hand and leg warmers in the bullpen and ready to go?

However fraudulent the initial vote counting was (and we don't know), the recount is the same since they're not looking at the paper trail in so many precincts.

Agree about the paper votes, but never really thought much of the recount...If you do research on the voter suppression which took place before the election, you get a better understanding of what happened. Purged voting rolls, decreased polling locations (research Ari Berman on North Carolina), cross checking (See Greg Palast)...lots to learn about.

Recounts mean shyte if the numbers have already been limited. There were many cases in court about how GOP state and local governments were violating people's voting rights. In some ways the castrating of the Voting Rights Act a few years earlier was the killer, as it was exploited by those who wanted to limit voter participation. The most egregious example was NC, where a leaked memo had the GOP discussing how to limit the voting participation in their favor.

Fake news and disinformation was also designed to keep people home by hitting HRCs approval ratings. Bloomberg news had some leaked info about this from the Trump campaign...targets were women and African Americans.

Comey and the constant fake stories built up about the Russian hacks distributed by WikiLeaks also played a role.

Always get a laugh at Trumpistas who don't see the big picture...look upon this as a simple "landslide" for the GOP.

Clinton, who I was never a big fan of, is going to end up about 3M votes ahead...between 2.1-2.4%... so this was no landslide...and when you add all the other crap Clinton had to contend with it is amazing that she could pull in the support she did.

But then maybe I'm just spreading fake news...

The shocking thing is Trump claimed his victory was a "massive landslide"! Talk about being delusional.

holfresh wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/iran-says-its-finalized-166b-boeing-deal-to-buy-80-planes/2016/12/11/4bdd694e-bf90-11e6-a52b-a0a126eaf9f7_story.html?utm_term=.31acd341153a

Iran seals deal with Boeing to buy 80 planes worth $16.6B..

Thanks Obama, I know it wont get the hype of the Carrier deal..

Yeah Good deal. we give them 150B in taxpayer money and they buy our Jets with some of the change😼

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Everyone who voted for Trump had to have voted for him because of lying fake news and the Russians! It had absolutely nothing to do with Hillary and her lack of message to the American people. It wasn't because she simply didn't think it was necessary to campaign in Ohio even 1 time. It wasn't because the media and a high number of celebrities tried to "persuade" the "stupid" public to vote for her. Hillary won man she had more votes. Heck she has J R Smith throwing down for her. Oh yeah aliens srugged Comey into making those comments in the last week. Conspiracy man and Trump scks. I am intellectually superior and these Trump voters can't pass an 8 grade math class

Serious question: Why are the Trump supporters trolling here like this? Most of the Democrats and Independents in this thread are at least trying to have a serious and respectful discussion.

Trolling to me is not giving the guy a chance and spreading mass hysteria. Especially when the guy isn't even in office yet. If anything starting blaming the current administration and the DNC for their failures in letting the American people down and forcing Hillary down everyone's throats thinking it would be an easy victory. Reality is she squeaked past a 70+ year old Bernie to win the democratic election. Probably had to have it rigged for her to win. I mean take off the blinders she had an easy road to victory at least in the dnc's eyes. Trump had to beat out what 16 other mostly qualified(sans Christie)republican establishment candidates.

Lets see more legit and unbiased arguments