martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Whats interesting is Steins college stats are very similar to D.Jordans stats from Texas A&M....In fact Steins stats are slightly better than D.Jordan's stats during their freshman year. D.Jordan was one and done, while Stein played another 2 years. So Stein will be coming into the NBA as a more mature player than DJ was, and with a better offensive game and better lateral quickness.

So if you are currently a DJ fan and see his impact on the Clippers, then you should be estatic about Steins potential, which is at least DJs level and higher (according to the stats).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deandre-jordan-1.html#players_per_game::none

I don't watch college bb and only saw Towns, WCS in their last 2 games. My question: how good a defensive player is WCS compared with how good Okafor is on the offensive end?

This is how I looked at it. In terms of +/- for all of CBB.

National Leaders - +/- Avg
Rank	Value	Player	                Yr	Ht	Wt	Gms	Team
1	16.8	Kevin Pangos	        Sr	6-2	182	38	Gonzaga
2	15.6	Frank Kaminsky	        Sr	7-0	242	39	Wisconsin
3	15.0	Gary Bell Jr.	        Sr	6-2	214	38	Gonzaga
4	14.7	Kyle Wiltjer	        Jr	6-10	240	38	Gonzaga
5	14.6	Tyus Jones	        Fr	6-1	190	39	Duke
6	14.3	Willie Cauley-Stein	Jr	7-0	240	39	Kentucky
--
44	11.6	Karl-Anthony Towns	Fr	6-11	250	39	Kentucky
45	11.5	Jahlil Okafor	        Fr	6-11	270	38	Duke

WCS did this almost entirely on his defensive prowess. That's impressive and if you can imagine him with improved offense then that makes it even more of a quantifiable impact.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Whats interesting is Steins college stats are very similar to D.Jordans stats from Texas A&M....In fact Steins stats are slightly better than D.Jordan's stats during their freshman year. D.Jordan was one and done, while Stein played another 2 years. So Stein will be coming into the NBA as a more mature player than DJ was, and with a better offensive game and better lateral quickness.

So if you are currently a DJ fan and see his impact on the Clippers, then you should be estatic about Steins potential, which is at least DJs level and higher (according to the stats).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deandre-jordan-1.html#players_per_game::none

I don't watch college bb and only saw Towns, WCS in their last 2 games. My question: how good a defensive player is WCS compared with how good Okafor is on the offensive end?

I just watched the NBA finals and to me the fact that GS discontinued playing Bogut and Fezeli for a more skilled offensive line up and then avg 10 more points per game(which on the series should say a lot) yet their defense did not suffer. Okafor commanded double teams all year WCS was guarded by GUARDS most of the year 1-1. WCS effect on the game on defense by himself was good yet somewhatu nknown as Kentucky had 6 guys 6-10+(Im concerned about WCS post defense) WCS is the better athlete and this is an athletic league but I think Okafor will be a version of Tim Duncan--not quite as good but a version of him and to me that good enough.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Whats interesting is Steins college stats are very similar to D.Jordans stats from Texas A&M....In fact Steins stats are slightly better than D.Jordan's stats during their freshman year. D.Jordan was one and done, while Stein played another 2 years. So Stein will be coming into the NBA as a more mature player than DJ was, and with a better offensive game and better lateral quickness.

So if you are currently a DJ fan and see his impact on the Clippers, then you should be estatic about Steins potential, which is at least DJs level and higher (according to the stats).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deandre-jordan-1.html#players_per_game::none

I don't watch college bb and only saw Towns, WCS in their last 2 games. My question: how good a defensive player is WCS compared with how good Okafor is on the offensive end?

I just watched the NBA finals and to me the fact that GS discontinued playing Bogut and Fezeli for a more skilled offensive line up and then avg 10 more points per game(which on the series should say a lot) yet their defense did not suffer. Okafor commanded double teams all year WCS was guarded by GUARDS most of the year 1-1. WCS effect on the game on defense by himself was good yet somewhatu nknown as Kentucky had 6 guys 6-10+(Im concerned about WCS post defense) WCS is the better athlete and this is an athletic league but I think Okafor will be a version of Tim Duncan--not quite as good but a version of him and to me that good enough.

WCS was without a doubt a huge impact on D. Teams scored at only 82 ppp with WCS on the floor and at 90 ppp when he wasn't on the floor. So yes they had a lot of talent but he still had a net positive impact.

nixluva wrote:

Nalod wrote:Would you take Potential Tim Duncan vs Potential DAndre Jordan?

Okafor is no Tim Duncan. His defense is nowhere near Duncan's. That's the main difference. It's why he didn't come up higher on the list I posted above.

This is where you are wrong. Your sighting an offensive game that WCS has you never seen before yet you can't see the defense Okafor plays. You are undervaluing Okafor's defense. He played defense to Duke's needs.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Whats interesting is Steins college stats are very similar to D.Jordans stats from Texas A&M....In fact Steins stats are slightly better than D.Jordan's stats during their freshman year. D.Jordan was one and done, while Stein played another 2 years. So Stein will be coming into the NBA as a more mature player than DJ was, and with a better offensive game and better lateral quickness.

So if you are currently a DJ fan and see his impact on the Clippers, then you should be estatic about Steins potential, which is at least DJs level and higher (according to the stats).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deandre-jordan-1.html#players_per_game::none

I don't watch college bb and only saw Towns, WCS in their last 2 games. My question: how good a defensive player is WCS compared with how good Okafor is on the offensive end?

I just watched the NBA finals and to me the fact that GS discontinued playing Bogut and Fezeli for a more skilled offensive line up and then avg 10 more points per game(which on the series should say a lot) yet their defense did not suffer. Okafor commanded double teams all year WCS was guarded by GUARDS most of the year 1-1. WCS effect on the game on defense by himself was good yet somewhatu nknown as Kentucky had 6 guys 6-10+(Im concerned about WCS post defense) WCS is the better athlete and this is an athletic league but I think Okafor will be a version of Tim Duncan--not quite as good but a version of him and to me that good enough.

You could make the same argument that Duke did better in the tournament when Okafor sat and Winslow took over.

Finals and the Tournament are small sample sizes and are given too much importance sometimes.

Particularly in the Finals, it's about two teams adjusting to one another and finding particular plays or players that work and ones that don't.

I think more than Golden State going "small" it had to do with Iguodala having a very personal rivalry with Lebron and knowing how to play him. Go back and look at some of Iggy's games vs Lebron in the past ten years - he always shows up to play Lebron.

Golden State plays a particular style, but they have a truly singular talent leading their attack. Steph Curry is the best three point shooter in the history of the NBA - both volume and percentage wise he has the best three year run of any player shooting the three ever. Teams can try to emulate that, but not every team will be able to. The pendulum will swing back and teams built around big men like AD, Towns, Okafor will be able to take advantage of teams built to mimic GSW but who don't have Steph Curry leading the charge.

But you are right that guard play is extremely important - this is why some of us favor Stein and his ability to not just contain but stifle the pick and roll, the bread and butter of most teams' attack.

Obviously, I would not pick Stein over Okafor, but I don't know some people are acting like we suddenly have this luxury. Okafor won't be there. If he is, you take him. If Russell is, you take him. If neither are, I would lean towards Stein. I would strongly consider Winslow, Mudiay and Porzingis, and I have and I certainly don't have all the information, but I hope the Knicks do.

To me, at 4, once Towns, Okafor, Russell are off the board, you have the next tier and it's:

Stein
Winslow
Porzingis
Mudiay

not necessarily in that order. You can make a case for each guy. I hope the Knicks chose wisely.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Whats interesting is Steins college stats are very similar to D.Jordans stats from Texas A&M....In fact Steins stats are slightly better than D.Jordan's stats during their freshman year. D.Jordan was one and done, while Stein played another 2 years. So Stein will be coming into the NBA as a more mature player than DJ was, and with a better offensive game and better lateral quickness.

So if you are currently a DJ fan and see his impact on the Clippers, then you should be estatic about Steins potential, which is at least DJs level and higher (according to the stats).

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deandre-jordan-1.html#players_per_game::none

I don't watch college bb and only saw Towns, WCS in their last 2 games. My question: how good a defensive player is WCS compared with how good Okafor is on the offensive end?

I just watched the NBA finals and to me the fact that GS discontinued playing Bogut and Fezeli for a more skilled offensive line up and then avg 10 more points per game(which on the series should say a lot) yet their defense did not suffer. Okafor commanded double teams all year WCS was guarded by GUARDS most of the year 1-1. WCS effect on the game on defense by himself was good yet somewhatu nknown as Kentucky had 6 guys 6-10+(Im concerned about WCS post defense) WCS is the better athlete and this is an athletic league but I think Okafor will be a version of Tim Duncan--not quite as good but a version of him and to me that good enough.

GS played to the strength of their roster. Why play big, if their best players are small? The only thing you can use GS for is that roster flexibility is key to winning a championship. Small ball is here to stay, so you have to build up a roster to defend it and score against it.

Ok4 is not the answer to GS small ball. They tried that with Memphis and eventhough it almost worked, almost is only with horseshoes. Ok4 can't handle the speed of GS. He would be on the bench right next to Bogut. Same with D.Jordan......But what intriguing about Stein is that he's a hybrid version. He provides flexibility.....Which goes beyond his defensive impact.

Stein allows you to go small, without losing your rim protector. There was nobody in the playoffs with that level of flexibility. You either played DeAndre Jordan or you sat him.....You either played Mozkof or you sat him. With Stein, he's like that all purpose running back.....He plays on all 4 downs.

Comparing Ok4's impact on offense compared to Stein's impact on defense is a very good question. Nix uses the plus minus stats, which is good. But it really depends on how you plan on using him, and the style of play on offense. I'll have to think about that question Martin! A defensive guy will lean towards Stein.....an Offensive guy would lean towards Ok4. It's the old Offense vs Defense debate. And I'm from the old school, where defense wins championships.

Big ball lineup....Stein plays PF
Small ball lineup....Stein plays Center

Regardless of the lineup, Stein get heavy minutes, which is key when comparing him to the other draft picks. Todays NBA is about flexibility. Thats why GS won the game. They knew playing big ball against Lebron won't work. So they went with small ball all the way to the championship. Next season, they might have to go big ball.....it's all about flexibility! I like both Porzingus and Stein because they provide roster flexibility!

Nalod wrote:Would you take Potential Tim Duncan vs Potential DAndre Jordan?

Duncan was an all around basketball player even in college. Other then the post play, There is nothing else to compare about the two.

Knicks1969 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Would you take Potential Tim Duncan vs Potential DAndre Jordan?

Duncan was an all around basketball player even in college. Other then the post play, There is nothing else to compare about the two.

Duncan also changed his body when he came into the NBA and added some muscle, but he already that great post-up game. He made the changes needed to have an NBA body, but he already had an NBA level game down low.

Curry needs to lose weight, and we all know about an injury that slowed him down. I've been critical of his D

Which is easier to do...

Stein, a fine, active, but sometimes overrated, defender, shows (in games)that he has a clue on the offensive end.

Watch the DraftExpress Kaminsky/Towns/Stein video, and even the Turner vs Kentucky video. He does not have a great touch around the basket, and seems to lose attention to situations at times- getting pushed around by smaller players, at times.

OR

OK4, a guy with the best post game-shooting and passing- coming out of college since Duncan, getting into better shape and losing some weight.

OK4 has instinctive moves and an awareness in the post that you can't teach, and as he matures physically he will be even better.

If Stein was as good as some of you guys think, his name would be mentioned as a top 3 pick.

He is not, and that's why he isn't.

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Would you take Potential Tim Duncan vs Potential DAndre Jordan?

Duncan was an all around basketball player even in college. Other then the post play, There is nothing else to compare about the two.

Duncan also changed his body when he came into the NBA and added some muscle, but he already that great post-up game. He made the changes needed to have an NBA body, but he already had an NBA level game down low.

Curry needs to lose weight, and we all know about an injury that slowed him down. I've been critical of his D

Which is easier to do...

Stein, a fine, active, but sometimes overrated, defender, shows (in games)that he has a clue on the offensive end.

Watch the DraftExpress Kaminsky/Towns/Stein video, and even the Turner vs Kentucky video. He does not have a great touch around the basket, and seems to lose attention to situations at times- getting pushed around by smaller players, at times.

OR

OK4, a guy with the best post game-shooting and passing- coming out of college since Duncan, getting into better shape and losing some weight.

OK4 has instinctive moves and an awareness in the post that you can't teach, and as he matures physically he will be even better.

If Stein was as good as some of you guys think, his name would be mentioned as a top 3 pick.

He is not, and that's why he isn't.

LOL did you just accidentally call Okafor Eddy Curry?

I will admit though, as someone involved in coaching a sport where weight is involved (HS Wrestling), I am always looking at a player's bodyweight and how it affects performance, and one fear I do have about OK4 is that he might have an issue with his weight.

I know the Kentucky kids have really worked on their bodies, as has Russell, who worked with them, and Porzingis has gained weight, but it looks like OK4 has significantly changed his body, although there was a photo where people said he looked thinner a while back.

I'm not going to lie and say it is not a concern for me.

Thought his legs looked heavy in the LA workout video. Do we have any body-fat measurements for OK4?

I think he is still much less mature physically than what people think, though. He really seems to be a baby in some ways. Stein has a man's body, and Towns has really sculpted himself, despite his age.

OK4 should not be heavier than 260, IMO, and if he's at that weight he really needs to increase his muscle weight.