foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fans who constantly whine that he needs more help are mirroring his blithe unawareness.
fans who constantly whine that his "supporting cast didn't step up" mirror this blithe unawareness.
fans who maintain that melo did his job but others fell short mirror this blithe unawareness.

Based upon reading your posts in this thread and elsewhere it has become clearer to me that you think you know more about basketball, basketball statistics, why (you think at least) Melo is not in top shape because of his heredity.......than anyone else on this board who may disagree with any or part of your views. Makes it very difficult to reason with you in any way.

Assuming Melo is the best player on the Knicks (even with his shortcomings)......those who claim he needs more help are not mirroring his "blithe" unawareness....so much as they are recognizing that the Knicks, although better than previous seasons, fell short and needed more talent as Melo is NOT Lebron and can NOT do it by himself.

What Melo's supporting cast did not do in the playoffs....especially against Indiana can be viewed in the statistics you claim to know more than most here. This has nothing to do with blithe unawareness....and I suspect you are just using that term in this case to be overly dramatic.

Not sure how many people are claiming that Melo adequately did his job against Indy, except for a very very tiny percentage of posters. What some are claiming is that he was injured, and this perhaps led to a drop in performance. They are also pointing to other players such as Tyson, looking for explanations of the drop as well.

It appears that you conveniently either make up stuff, or put thoughts in people's minds in order to seek an argumentative point to make.

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fans who constantly whine that he needs more help are mirroring his blithe unawareness.
fans who constantly whine that his "supporting cast didn't step up" mirror this blithe unawareness.
fans who maintain that melo did his job but others fell short mirror this blithe unawareness.

Based upon reading your posts in this thread and elsewhere it has become clearer to me that you think you know more about basketball, basketball statistics, why (you think at least) Melo is not in top shape because of his heredity.......than anyone else on this board who may disagree with any or part of your views. Makes it very difficult to reason with you in any way.

Assuming Melo is the best player on the Knicks (even with his shortcomings)......those who claim he needs more help are not mirroring his "blithe" unawareness....so much as they are recognizing that the Knicks, although better than previous seasons, fell short and needed more talent as Melo is NOT Lebron and can NOT do it by himself.

What Melo's supporting cast did not do in the playoffs....especially against Indiana can be viewed in the statistics you claim to know more than most here. This has nothing to do with blithe unawareness....and I suspect you are just using that term in this case to be overly dramatic.

Not sure how many people are claiming that Melo adequately did his job against Indy, except for a very very tiny percentage of posters. What some are claiming is that he was injured, and this perhaps led to a drop in performance. They are also pointing to other players such as Tyson, looking for explanations of the drop as well.

It appears that you conveniently either make up stuff, or put thoughts in people's minds in order to seek an argumentative point to make.

None of what you wrote addresses the statistical evidence DK7th has presented. It was really just a gentle personal attack.

What page is that on or is that the usage to assist number he usually posts?

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fans who constantly whine that he needs more help are mirroring his blithe unawareness.
fans who constantly whine that his "supporting cast didn't step up" mirror this blithe unawareness.
fans who maintain that melo did his job but others fell short mirror this blithe unawareness.

Based upon reading your posts in this thread and elsewhere it has become clearer to me that you think you know more about basketball, basketball statistics, why (you think at least) Melo is not in top shape because of his heredity.......than anyone else on this board who may disagree with any or part of your views. Makes it very difficult to reason with you in any way.

Assuming Melo is the best player on the Knicks (even with his shortcomings)......those who claim he needs more help are not mirroring his "blithe" unawareness....so much as they are recognizing that the Knicks, although better than previous seasons, fell short and needed more talent as Melo is NOT Lebron and can NOT do it by himself.

What Melo's supporting cast did not do in the playoffs....especially against Indiana can be viewed in the statistics you claim to know more than most here. This has nothing to do with blithe unawareness....and I suspect you are just using that term in this case to be overly dramatic.

Not sure how many people are claiming that Melo adequately did his job against Indy, except for a very very tiny percentage of posters. What some are claiming is that he was injured, and this perhaps led to a drop in performance. They are also pointing to other players such as Tyson, looking for explanations of the drop as well.

It appears that you conveniently either make up stuff, or put thoughts in people's minds in order to seek an argumentative point to make.

None of what you wrote addresses the statistical evidence DK7th has presented. It was really just a gentle personal attack.

What page is that on or is that the usage to assist number he touts?

DK has discussed stats throughout the forum. Are you new here?!

Yes, the stats I just said I was wondering if they were some different stats. Like showing how the team is better off with Melo off the floor or The number of assisted baskets they get when he is on/off. Player shooting percentage on/off. Just some more stats besides the usual box score stats.

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fans who constantly whine that he needs more help are mirroring his blithe unawareness.
fans who constantly whine that his "supporting cast didn't step up" mirror this blithe unawareness.
fans who maintain that melo did his job but others fell short mirror this blithe unawareness.

Based upon reading your posts in this thread and elsewhere it has become clearer to me that you think you know more about basketball, basketball statistics, why (you think at least) Melo is not in top shape because of his heredity.......than anyone else on this board who may disagree with any or part of your views. Makes it very difficult to reason with you in any way.

Assuming Melo is the best player on the Knicks (even with his shortcomings)......those who claim he needs more help are not mirroring his "blithe" unawareness....so much as they are recognizing that the Knicks, although better than previous seasons, fell short and needed more talent as Melo is NOT Lebron and can NOT do it by himself.

What Melo's supporting cast did not do in the playoffs....especially against Indiana can be viewed in the statistics you claim to know more than most here. This has nothing to do with blithe unawareness....and I suspect you are just using that term in this case to be overly dramatic.

Not sure how many people are claiming that Melo adequately did his job against Indy, except for a very very tiny percentage of posters. What some are claiming is that he was injured, and this perhaps led to a drop in performance. They are also pointing to other players such as Tyson, looking for explanations of the drop as well.

It appears that you conveniently either make up stuff, or put thoughts in people's minds in order to seek an argumentative point to make.

None of what you wrote addresses the statistical evidence DK7th has presented. It was really just a gentle personal attack.

What page is that on or is that the usage to assist number he touts?

DK has discussed stats throughout the forum. Are you new here?!

Yes, the stats I just said I was wondering if they were some different stats. Like showing how the team is better off with Melo off the floor or The number of assisted baskets they get when he is on/off. Player shooting percentage on/off. Just some more stats besides the usual box score stats.

Oh my bad. I think DK mostly posts TS% and usage:assist ratio

No problem. Just trying to make DK an all around statistical poster. He really needs to expand his game. He is to much of a TS/usage to assist chucker.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:All Melo needs is a little help. Imagine if we had another offensive player who could score from anywhere on the court and shoot over just about anyone. Andrea is that kind of player and he's not broken.
These are some games from the time right after AB came back after an elbow issue last year. Please look at these relatively short videos and you can see that even not 100% AB is able to do things none of our other bigs can do. He's a serious problem on PnP and he's more quick and agile than some of use realize. Next to Melo he'll be very good.

Can i see the playoff footage?

No specific comments on any of the games I posted? You had the Celtics and Pacers to look at. I would like for you to look at the Pacers games in particular and see how lost the Pacer bigs are out away from the basket against AB!!! They don't want to come out and when they do they look scared to commit. This what AB brings to the table that will have an effect on teams with big defenders inside.

Also remember AB isn't 100% at the time of these games.

they dont want to come out by design, they know bargnani at best only hits 45%.

The pacers aren't concerned with what Bargnani MIGHT do.....the video isnt impressive.

Wanna impress me...attack where you stand.

Notice how boozer isnt trying to take Hibbert out of the paint....he attacks him, and that's how you beat him.

The 1:30 mark of the posted video by Nix gives an idea of what you are looking for even though it's on the quicker Mahimi. Maybe Hibbert just stays back though.

EXACTLY! Also in the vid I posted you can see how lame the Pacer bigs look out away from the basket. Their bigs are afraid to close out hard cuz they know AB is able to pump fake and drive right by them. West gets abused, Mahinmi too. They won't be able to just pack the paint and efectively stop the knicks. Also Knickscity, you're nuts if you think AB hitting at 45% is bad from midrange. The thing is that he's more than capable of hitting for more with another top player like Melo on the floor.

The Pacers will have a much tougher time guarding this team with AB and Melo in there. They won't be able to just focus on Melo and get away with hit. Shots are open the Knicks just need to hit them. JR had open shots, Kidd had open shots, Prigs... When Shump got hot it exposed the Pacers packing the paint and that's the reason the Knicks added more shooting with THJ, Beno and AB. They can give the team just the punch they need. Beno isn't a great shooter but he's better than Kidd.

The mid range shot is the worst shot in basketball, it's bad no matter what % a player hits it at.....good luck thinking a primarily jump shooting team makes any form of playoff noise....solid defense hands out the long jumper all day because it doesnt hurt them at all....they protect the paint and the three.

You're making it seem like Melo was doubled teamed...he wasnt, the Pacers defense is one man guards one man.

I have zero faith in Bargnani, absolutely none, and no clip of regular season losses will ever convince me otherwise, which is why I asked for the playoff footage...since apparently he has none.

I understand what you're trying to point out regarding the mid range shot, but that defensive method won't work with Beno/Prigs and AB in the PnP/PnR. Beno is a very good mid range shooter and so is AB. You can keep saying you have zero faith in AB to be the scorer we need, but that's meaningless as an argument. The fact that you don't have any negative Playoff footage to try and make your point doesn't make your argument stronger. We'll have to see whether it's effective in the playoffs this year or not. What I do know is that now we're not stuck with only ISO plays to attack teams with.

As for the idea that no one on the Pacers was double teaming Melo, that's only a minor aspect of why it is good to add AB to the roster. Another dangerous primary scorer that is excellent in the PnP/PnR game along with Beno and Prigs being excellent PnP/PnR PG's is what will force defenses to make some kind of adjustment to how they defend this team. Having Beno and Prigs who will look for and find open scorers is going to make all of this much more effective.

Just notice how Beno takes what the D gives on the pull up jumper off the PnP. He actually makes that shot. The Pacers won't be able to just ignore either him or AB on PnP plays. They will make those shots if open.

I know exactly what these guys are capable of without the video sessions, i can even show a video of Eddy curry being a dominant offensive force....but my common sense knows better....and this is no different.

You dont beat Indy thinking you can knock down jumpers all day, they give teams that shot.....that should be the number lesson taken from our loss to them, but no, you guys still believe if we made just one more shot, we win.

That doesnt even address the other side of the ball...whom is barg melo and beno guarding on the other end if they make their shot?

Thats probably the worst three defensive players assembled....two are lazy and one is incapable...no video needed.

But here's my approach....keep expectations low, pretty much non existent, so i can enjoy success, if the team has it.

Thinking what these guys WILL do when there is no playoff proof is setting yourself up for monumental failure...tone it down a notch.

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:All Melo needs is a little help. Imagine if we had another offensive player who could score from anywhere on the court and shoot over just about anyone. Andrea is that kind of player and he's not broken.
These are some games from the time right after AB came back after an elbow issue last year. Please look at these relatively short videos and you can see that even not 100% AB is able to do things none of our other bigs can do. He's a serious problem on PnP and he's more quick and agile than some of use realize. Next to Melo he'll be very good.

Can i see the playoff footage?

No specific comments on any of the games I posted? You had the Celtics and Pacers to look at. I would like for you to look at the Pacers games in particular and see how lost the Pacer bigs are out away from the basket against AB!!! They don't want to come out and when they do they look scared to commit. This what AB brings to the table that will have an effect on teams with big defenders inside.

Also remember AB isn't 100% at the time of these games.

they dont want to come out by design, they know bargnani at best only hits 45%.

The pacers aren't concerned with what Bargnani MIGHT do.....the video isnt impressive.

Wanna impress me...attack where you stand.

Notice how boozer isnt trying to take Hibbert out of the paint....he attacks him, and that's how you beat him.

The 1:30 mark of the posted video by Nix gives an idea of what you are looking for even though it's on the quicker Mahimi. Maybe Hibbert just stays back though.

EXACTLY! Also in the vid I posted you can see how lame the Pacer bigs look out away from the basket. Their bigs are afraid to close out hard cuz they know AB is able to pump fake and drive right by them. West gets abused, Mahinmi too. They won't be able to just pack the paint and efectively stop the knicks. Also Knickscity, you're nuts if you think AB hitting at 45% is bad from midrange. The thing is that he's more than capable of hitting for more with another top player like Melo on the floor.

The Pacers will have a much tougher time guarding this team with AB and Melo in there. They won't be able to just focus on Melo and get away with hit. Shots are open the Knicks just need to hit them. JR had open shots, Kidd had open shots, Prigs... When Shump got hot it exposed the Pacers packing the paint and that's the reason the Knicks added more shooting with THJ, Beno and AB. They can give the team just the punch they need. Beno isn't a great shooter but he's better than Kidd.

The mid range shot is the worst shot in basketball, it's bad no matter what % a player hits it at.....good luck thinking a primarily jump shooting team makes any form of playoff noise....solid defense hands out the long jumper all day because it doesnt hurt them at all....they protect the paint and the three.

You're making it seem like Melo was doubled teamed...he wasnt, the Pacers defense is one man guards one man.

I have zero faith in Bargnani, absolutely none, and no clip of regular season losses will ever convince me otherwise, which is why I asked for the playoff footage...since apparently he has none.

I understand what you're trying to point out regarding the mid range shot, but that defensive method won't work with Beno/Prigs and AB in the PnP/PnR. Beno is a very good mid range shooter and so is AB. You can keep saying you have zero faith in AB to be the scorer we need, but that's meaningless as an argument. The fact that you don't have any negative Playoff footage to try and make your point doesn't make your argument stronger. We'll have to see whether it's effective in the playoffs this year or not. What I do know is that now we're not stuck with only ISO plays to attack teams with.

As for the idea that no one on the Pacers was double teaming Melo, that's only a minor aspect of why it is good to add AB to the roster. Another dangerous primary scorer that is excellent in the PnP/PnR game along with Beno and Prigs being excellent PnP/PnR PG's is what will force defenses to make some kind of adjustment to how they defend this team. Having Beno and Prigs who will look for and find open scorers is going to make all of this much more effective.

Just notice how Beno takes what the D gives on the pull up jumper off the PnP. He actually makes that shot. The Pacers won't be able to just ignore either him or AB on PnP plays. They will make those shots if open.

As long as you have Melo JR and Bargnani you'll always have iso plays, that is their preference of play.

I know exactly what these guys are capable of without the video sessions, i can even show a video of Eddy curry being a dominant offensive force....but my common sense knows better....and this is no different.

You dont beat Indy thinking you can knock down jumpers all day, they give teams that shot.....that should be the number lesson taken from our loss to them, but no, you guys still believe if we made just one more shot, we win.

That doesnt even address the other side of the ball...whom is barg melo and beno guarding on the other end if they make their shot?

Thats probably the worst three defensive players assembled....two are lazy and one is incapable...no video needed.

But here's my approach....keep expectations low, pretty much non existent, so i can enjoy success, if the team has it.

Thinking what these guys WILL do when there is no playoff proof is setting yourself up for monumental failure...tone it down a notch.

good post

I find it funny, that people forget that felton was knocking down jumpers last year as well especially when healthy, I think his percentage took a dip when he hurt his fingers... but felton also kept defenses honest because he could drive the ball well..

But in the end, carmelo, JR and Bargnani love to iso, so that is what they are going to do... plus if you look at the pacers, they do one thing well.. chase you off the three point line and force you into tougher shots.. they have length and atleticism.. Paul george and George hill are long, and athletic, they cover a lot of ground... add in stephenson and that becomes a pretty long and atheltic unit...

That doesnt even address the other side of the ball...whom is barg melo and beno guarding on the other end if they make their shot?

that has been asked so many times, and no one wants to touch it.. I can take a good guess why... lol

You also don't consider the value of team play. The Euros are schooled to play much better team BB than American playground kids. So we have Prigs, Beno and Bargs. Gallo also when we had him demonstrated this. They all have high BB IQ which also counts a lot. They know how to play BB correctly and that provides more wins.

Now you also forget to add in our strong defensive players - Shump; Tyson - def player of the yr; KMart; Metta - also a def POY; JR also plays very good def. So that is 5 rotation players who play excellent defense.

Indiana played very well last year in the playoffs - beat us with a very injured team, and almost beat the Heat. No taking that away from them. But they also were hot and played over their heads. It will be a very good game to watch this year when we play them. And Miami. And the Nyets. We are stronger than last year.

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:All Melo needs is a little help. Imagine if we had another offensive player who could score from anywhere on the court and shoot over just about anyone. Andrea is that kind of player and he's not broken.
These are some games from the time right after AB came back after an elbow issue last year. Please look at these relatively short videos and you can see that even not 100% AB is able to do things none of our other bigs can do. He's a serious problem on PnP and he's more quick and agile than some of use realize. Next to Melo he'll be very good.

Can i see the playoff footage?

No specific comments on any of the games I posted? You had the Celtics and Pacers to look at. I would like for you to look at the Pacers games in particular and see how lost the Pacer bigs are out away from the basket against AB!!! They don't want to come out and when they do they look scared to commit. This what AB brings to the table that will have an effect on teams with big defenders inside.

Also remember AB isn't 100% at the time of these games.

they dont want to come out by design, they know bargnani at best only hits 45%.

The pacers aren't concerned with what Bargnani MIGHT do.....the video isnt impressive.

Wanna impress me...attack where you stand.

Notice how boozer isnt trying to take Hibbert out of the paint....he attacks him, and that's how you beat him.

The 1:30 mark of the posted video by Nix gives an idea of what you are looking for even though it's on the quicker Mahimi. Maybe Hibbert just stays back though.

EXACTLY! Also in the vid I posted you can see how lame the Pacer bigs look out away from the basket. Their bigs are afraid to close out hard cuz they know AB is able to pump fake and drive right by them. West gets abused, Mahinmi too. They won't be able to just pack the paint and efectively stop the knicks. Also Knickscity, you're nuts if you think AB hitting at 45% is bad from midrange. The thing is that he's more than capable of hitting for more with another top player like Melo on the floor.

The Pacers will have a much tougher time guarding this team with AB and Melo in there. They won't be able to just focus on Melo and get away with hit. Shots are open the Knicks just need to hit them. JR had open shots, Kidd had open shots, Prigs... When Shump got hot it exposed the Pacers packing the paint and that's the reason the Knicks added more shooting with THJ, Beno and AB. They can give the team just the punch they need. Beno isn't a great shooter but he's better than Kidd.

The mid range shot is the worst shot in basketball, it's bad no matter what % a player hits it at.....good luck thinking a primarily jump shooting team makes any form of playoff noise....solid defense hands out the long jumper all day because it doesnt hurt them at all....they protect the paint and the three.

You're making it seem like Melo was doubled teamed...he wasnt, the Pacers defense is one man guards one man.

I have zero faith in Bargnani, absolutely none, and no clip of regular season losses will ever convince me otherwise, which is why I asked for the playoff footage...since apparently he has none.

I understand what you're trying to point out regarding the mid range shot, but that defensive method won't work with Beno/Prigs and AB in the PnP/PnR. Beno is a very good mid range shooter and so is AB. You can keep saying you have zero faith in AB to be the scorer we need, but that's meaningless as an argument. The fact that you don't have any negative Playoff footage to try and make your point doesn't make your argument stronger. We'll have to see whether it's effective in the playoffs this year or not. What I do know is that now we're not stuck with only ISO plays to attack teams with.

As for the idea that no one on the Pacers was double teaming Melo, that's only a minor aspect of why it is good to add AB to the roster. Another dangerous primary scorer that is excellent in the PnP/PnR game along with Beno and Prigs being excellent PnP/PnR PG's is what will force defenses to make some kind of adjustment to how they defend this team. Having Beno and Prigs who will look for and find open scorers is going to make all of this much more effective.

Just notice how Beno takes what the D gives on the pull up jumper off the PnP. He actually makes that shot. The Pacers won't be able to just ignore either him or AB on PnP plays. They will make those shots if open.

As long as you have Melo JR and Bargnani you'll always have iso plays, that is their preference of play.

I know exactly what these guys are capable of without the video sessions, i can even show a video of Eddy curry being a dominant offensive force....but my common sense knows better....and this is no different.

You dont beat Indy thinking you can knock down jumpers all day, they give teams that shot.....that should be the number lesson taken from our loss to them, but no, you guys still believe if we made just one more shot, we win.

That doesnt even address the other side of the ball...whom is barg melo and beno guarding on the other end if they make their shot?

Thats probably the worst three defensive players assembled....two are lazy and one is incapable...no video needed.

But here's my approach....keep expectations low, pretty much non existent, so i can enjoy success, if the team has it.

Thinking what these guys WILL do when there is no playoff proof is setting yourself up for monumental failure...tone it down a notch.

good post

I find it funny, that people forget that felton was knocking down jumpers last year as well especially when healthy, I think his percentage took a dip when he hurt his fingers... but felton also kept defenses honest because he could drive the ball well..

But in the end, carmelo, JR and Bargnani love to iso, so that is what they are going to do... plus if you look at the pacers, they do one thing well.. chase you off the three point line and force you into tougher shots.. they have length and atleticism.. Paul george and George hill are long, and athletic, they cover a lot of ground... add in stephenson and that becomes a pretty long and atheltic unit...

That doesnt even address the other side of the ball...whom is barg melo and beno guarding on the other end if they make their shot?

that has been asked so many times, and no one wants to touch it.. I can take a good guess why... lol

OK - I'll touch it. You totally under-rate all 3 in their defensive capabilities and under-rate the addition of another major offensive threat in Bargs. You make it sound like they are zero on defense while they are not. Also Melo is an excellent rebounder which you also sluff off as not important while it is an important fact.

You also don't consider the value of team play. The Euros are schooled to play much better team BB than American playground kids. So we have Prigs, Beno and Bargs. Gallo also when we had him demonstrated this. They all have high BB IQ which also counts a lot. They know how to play BB correctly and that provides more wins.

Now you also forget to add in our strong defensive players - Shump; Tyson - def player of the yr; KMart; Metta - also a def POY; JR also plays very good def. So that is 5 rotation players who play excellent defense.

Indiana played very well last year in the playoffs - beat us with a very injured team, and almost beat the Heat. No taking that away from them. But they also were hot and played over their heads. It will be a very good game to watch this year when we play them. And Miami. And the Nyets. We are stronger than last year.

You totally under-rate all 3 in their defensive capabilities and under-rate the addition of another major offensive threat in Bargs.

actually I am not, I think I rate them where they should be.. below average defenders.. And Bargnani has never been a major offensive thread.. I mean really, where are you guys getting some of this stuff from? do you understand you called this guy a MAJOR offensive threat? there is no evidence of that..

You also don't consider the value of team play. The Euros are schooled to play much better team BB than American playground kids. So we have Prigs, Beno and Bargs. Gallo also when we had him demonstrated this. They all have high BB IQ which also counts a lot. They know how to play BB correctly and that provides more wins.

Oh, I do consider team play... but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now.. I think all of us, or most of us appreciate good team play, but we had that last year as well with prigs and kidd. I mean what better team player than Kidd right? and guess what? in the end, Iso ball prevails and we added another iso player... Bargs, carmelo, JR smith and they are all and will be endorsed/enabled by woodson..

Now you also forget to add in our strong defensive players - Shump; Tyson - def player of the yr; KMart; Metta - also a def POY; JR also plays very good def. So that is 5 rotation players who play excellent defense.

actually I don't.. but metta and Kmart are long in the tooth and not the defenders they once were? and the problems are up front, we don't have anyone to contend with west/ hibbert and now add in scola... all of them can score in the paint and rebound very well..

You make it sound like they are zero on defense while they are not. Also Melo is an excellent rebounder which you also sluff off as not important while it is an important fact.

well I am sure they have to attempt to defend their man while they are out there, but truth is, they are not good defenders and carmelo is a good rebounder, not excellent... and part of that comes from rebounding his own misses and shots that get blocked, which is becoming more and more common nowadays..

and let me add, some of you are infatuated with adding "great" "excellent" in front of anything carmelo does.. and the fact is, he isn't Great or excellent at anything!! is he a very good volume shooter and scorer, Yes... is he great.. NO, is he an excellent rebounder? well do you call 6.4 boards a game excellent? "EXCELLENT"? when you use words like that, you open up to great scrutiny.. and this goes with anyone... people would expect GREAT things....

Excellent rebounder at SF was larry bird, a guy who could not jump 3 inches off the floor.. averaged for his career 10 boards a game.. and oh, NBA TV blessed us with the lakers vs Celtics finals, they ran all of them the other day.. in game 4 of the 86 finals vs one of the best teams in the history of the game.. pulled down 21 rebounds..

I mean must we use the word excellent and Great? just saying. All of a sudden Bargnani is a "major" scoring threat, and now Beno Udrih is the next stockton.

expectations are great, but tapering expectations with realism provides for better dialogue , especially with so called "haters" like myself...

nixluva wrote:The thing that seems to be overstated by some here is that somehow the Knicks won't be able to score against the Pacers with a more versatile offense this year. Why in the world would that be the case? Why if the Knicks have a more versatile offense would they somehow not be able to be more effective against the Pacers D, which is good but not impregnable if you give them more motion, picks, passing and good shooting! The Knicks will have a less predictable offense now as opposed to last year where it was very easy to know what was going to happen.

Just look at the FGA's in the chart below. Looking at the playoff statistics it's easy to see how the offense deteriorated into basically Melo ISO, JR and Felton as the only guys really taking shots!!! Shump was the only other player even close to taking double digit shots and he was only taking 8 shots. This years roster should change that kind of poor balance.

PLAYER	     FGM  FGA    FG%  3PM  3PA   3P%  FTM  FTA  FT%   2PM  2PA  2P%   PPS    AFG%
Carmelo, SF  10.5 25.8	.406  1.4  4.8	.298  6.4  7.3	0.89  9.1  21.0	.431  1.116  0.43
J.R., SG     4.9  14.8	.331  1.6  6.0	.273  2.8  3.9	0.72  3.3  8.8	.371  .963   0.39
Raymond, PG  6.0  13.5	.444  0.8  2.3	.321  1.3  2.0	0.67  5.2  11.2	.470  1.043  0.47
Iman, SF     3.4  8.3	.410  1.5  3.5	.429  1.0  1.2	0.86  1.9  4.8	.397  1.120  0.50
Kenyon, PF   2.4  4.2	.580  0.0  0.0	.000  0.9  1.7	0.55  2.4  4.2	.580  1.380  0.58
Tyson, C     2.3  4.3	.538  0.0  0.0	.000  1.0  1.3	0.75  2.3  4.3	.538  1.308  0.54
Pablo, PG    1.5  3.9	.395  1.2  2.7	.433  0.2  0.4	0.50  0.3  1.2	.308  1.140  0.55
Chris, SF    1.3  3.3	.400  1.2  2.6	.478  0.2  0.2	1.00  0.1  0.7	.143  1.233  0.58
Amar'e, PF   1.3  3.3	.385  0.3  0.3	1.000 1.0  1.0	1.00  1.0  3.0	.333  1.154  0.42
Novak, SF    0.8  1.4	.538  0.4  1.0	.444  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.4  0.4	.750  1.385  0.69
Quentin, SF  0.4  1.2	.333  0.4  1.0	.400  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.0  0.2	.000  1.000  0.50
White, SG    0.5  1.0	.500  0.0  0.5	.000  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.5  0.5	1.000 1.000  0.50
Kidd, PG     0.3  2.1	.120  0.3  1.4	.176  0.2  0.2	1.00  0.0  0.7	.000  .440   0.18
Camby, C     0.3  0.3	1.000 0.0  0.0	.000  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.3  0.3	1.000 2.000  1.00
Totals	     33.3 81.0	.410  8.0  23.3	.343  14.1 18.0	.782  25.3 57.7	.438  1.09   0.46

So now you have AB and Beno adding meaningful variety to the offense. Kidd and Pablo simply didn't add anything in terms of an offensive threat. Beno can be more effective in that role. When JR was playing poorly we didn't have another option to go to. Now we should have AB as a legit #2 option so that JR isn't relied upon in the same way. MWP can give us solid D but at the same time he's not a zero on offense. That also makes a difference. We don't have a lot of 2 way players. We will be depending on Shump to take another step in his development. Shump must become a more aggressive offensive player. If not then we do have THJ. Even our bench players will have a bit more punch. CJ and Tyler are at least physically gifted players who have scoring ability. Those are significant changes.

I like Woodson and think he has done well, but do you think he can develop.....in your words a "more versatile offense"?

And I'm sorry if you really think barganani will be effective in the PLAYOFFS as a number 2...more disappointment will come.

He isnt built for the big dance.....he can barely dress himself.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:The thing that seems to be overstated by some here is that somehow the Knicks won't be able to score against the Pacers with a more versatile offense this year. Why in the world would that be the case? Why if the Knicks have a more versatile offense would they somehow not be able to be more effective against the Pacers D, which is good but not impregnable if you give them more motion, picks, passing and good shooting! The Knicks will have a less predictable offense now as opposed to last year where it was very easy to know what was going to happen.

Just look at the FGA's in the chart below. Looking at the playoff statistics it's easy to see how the offense deteriorated into basically Melo ISO, JR and Felton as the only guys really taking shots!!! Shump was the only other player even close to taking double digit shots and he was only taking 8 shots. This years roster should change that kind of poor balance.

PLAYER	     FGM  FGA    FG%  3PM  3PA   3P%  FTM  FTA  FT%   2PM  2PA  2P%   PPS    AFG%
Carmelo, SF  10.5 25.8	.406  1.4  4.8	.298  6.4  7.3	0.89  9.1  21.0	.431  1.116  0.43
J.R., SG     4.9  14.8	.331  1.6  6.0	.273  2.8  3.9	0.72  3.3  8.8	.371  .963   0.39
Raymond, PG  6.0  13.5	.444  0.8  2.3	.321  1.3  2.0	0.67  5.2  11.2	.470  1.043  0.47
Iman, SF     3.4  8.3	.410  1.5  3.5	.429  1.0  1.2	0.86  1.9  4.8	.397  1.120  0.50
Kenyon, PF   2.4  4.2	.580  0.0  0.0	.000  0.9  1.7	0.55  2.4  4.2	.580  1.380  0.58
Tyson, C     2.3  4.3	.538  0.0  0.0	.000  1.0  1.3	0.75  2.3  4.3	.538  1.308  0.54
Pablo, PG    1.5  3.9	.395  1.2  2.7	.433  0.2  0.4	0.50  0.3  1.2	.308  1.140  0.55
Chris, SF    1.3  3.3	.400  1.2  2.6	.478  0.2  0.2	1.00  0.1  0.7	.143  1.233  0.58
Amar'e, PF   1.3  3.3	.385  0.3  0.3	1.000 1.0  1.0	1.00  1.0  3.0	.333  1.154  0.42
Novak, SF    0.8  1.4	.538  0.4  1.0	.444  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.4  0.4	.750  1.385  0.69
Quentin, SF  0.4  1.2	.333  0.4  1.0	.400  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.0  0.2	.000  1.000  0.50
White, SG    0.5  1.0	.500  0.0  0.5	.000  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.5  0.5	1.000 1.000  0.50
Kidd, PG     0.3  2.1	.120  0.3  1.4	.176  0.2  0.2	1.00  0.0  0.7	.000  .440   0.18
Camby, C     0.3  0.3	1.000 0.0  0.0	.000  0.0  0.0	0.00  0.3  0.3	1.000 2.000  1.00
Totals	     33.3 81.0	.410  8.0  23.3	.343  14.1 18.0	.782  25.3 57.7	.438  1.09   0.46

So now you have AB and Beno adding meaningful variety to the offense. Kidd and Pablo simply didn't add anything in terms of an offensive threat. Beno can be more effective in that role. When JR was playing poorly we didn't have another option to go to. Now we should have AB as a legit #2 option so that JR isn't relied upon in the same way. MWP can give us solid D but at the same time he's not a zero on offense. That also makes a difference. We don't have a lot of 2 way players. We will be depending on Shump to take another step in his development. Shump must become a more aggressive offensive player. If not then we do have THJ. Even our bench players will have a bit more punch. CJ and Tyler are at least physically gifted players who have scoring ability. Those are significant changes.

I'll make this short....

I like Woodson and think he has done well, but do you think he can develop.....in your words a "more versatile offense"?

And I'm sorry if you really think barganani will be effective in the PLAYOFFS as a number 2...more disappointment will come.

He isnt built for the big dance.....he can barely dress himself.

This is a snippet from an article that I referenced in my post above.

Through the first four games of this season, Woodson had made me look like a fool. He has designed an almost entirely new offensive system involving a heavy dose of off-ball screening, pick-and-rolls, post-ups, dribble hand-offs, and rapid, decisive, side-to-side ball movement around the perimeter.

What Woodson has done is tailor an offense to the personnel he has, rather than try to fit that personnel into preconceived roles based on the system he had run during his tenure in Atlanta and last season in New York. The result has been the league’s best offense through this early part of the season, one that has the Knicks sitting at 4-0 as the NBA’s lone remaining undefeated team.

At the center of it all is Carmelo Anthony, who is running fewer isolations and more post-ups than at any point in his career. Felton and Pablo Prigioni are getting copious amounts of pick-and-roll opportunities with Anthony, Tyson Chandler, Kurt Thomas and Rasheed Wallace. JR Smith, Steve Novak and Kidd are coming off screens from every direction and seeing a plethora of open 3-point opportunities. Ronnie Brewer is lurking behind all the action for corner 3′s and cuts to the rim.

I think Woody started out with the right idea but injury effected his plans. We will see Woody be able to stick to his plans much better with a better roster that is young enough and deep enough to actually make it work over the course of the season. This is a MUCH better roster to start the year than we had to start last year. Go back and look at what we had to start last year and then look at the roster this year.

foosballnick wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fans who constantly whine that he needs more help are mirroring his blithe unawareness.
fans who constantly whine that his "supporting cast didn't step up" mirror this blithe unawareness.
fans who maintain that melo did his job but others fell short mirror this blithe unawareness.

Based upon reading your posts in this thread and elsewhere it has become clearer to me that you think you know more about basketball, basketball statistics, why (you think at least) Melo is not in top shape because of his heredity.......than anyone else on this board who may disagree with any or part of your views. Makes it very difficult to reason with you in any way.

Assuming Melo is the best player on the Knicks (even with his shortcomings)......those who claim he needs more help are not mirroring his "blithe" unawareness....so much as they are recognizing that the Knicks, although better than previous seasons, fell short and needed more talent as Melo is NOT Lebron and can NOT do it by himself.

What Melo's supporting cast did not do in the playoffs....especially against Indiana can be viewed in the statistics you claim to know more than most here. This has nothing to do with blithe unawareness....and I suspect you are just using that term in this case to be overly dramatic.

Not sure how many people are claiming that Melo adequately did his job against Indy, except for a very very tiny percentage of posters. What some are claiming is that he was injured, and this perhaps led to a drop in performance. They are also pointing to other players such as Tyson, looking for explanations of the drop as well.

It appears that you conveniently either make up stuff, or put thoughts in people's minds in order to seek an argumentative point to make.

i know plenty about basketball-- should i pretend otherwise? and i am only too happy to admit when i am ignorant. i also like mathematics and if i find them useful in support of what my eyes see and what my understanding of X is then i will use them. you cited TS% and demonstrated a faulty understanding of this statistic. this is not a "gotcha" game with me but if you don't understand the material it is not wise to criticize it or those who use that material. a simple "my bad" will suffice and we can move on-- unlike this post you have written here, which seems like a personal attack or indictment of my presence here.

all that aside, the regular season is about experimentation and development. training camp doesn't give enough sound data and pre-season is too short. teams don't ever have a chance to really work on cohesion between regular-season games so the better coaches and players will work on stuff in the games themselves if they know what's good for the overall state of the team come playoff time. woodson was reluctant and impatient and worse still he was unwilling to mold carmelo anthony... so far as that is even possible.

so instead we get glorious scoring titles at the expense of any real team cohesion... and without cohesion the level of resilience plummets in the face of genuine challenges.

the knicks got second seed but went about getting that second seed foolishly, squandering an opportunity to work tirelessly on what made them so good the first 7 games of the 12-13 season. lets see if they can get it right this season.

newyorknewyork wrote:This is kind of off topic but kind of not. W

What makes the mid range jumper so inefficient compared to the 3pt shot. Is it because majority of 3s are spot up open looks and majority of long 2s are coming off the dribble?

Mathematically is a open spot up 15-20ft jumper still more inefficient then a open spot up 23-24ft jumper?

The long two is a troubling shot for two basic reasons: 1) league-wide these shots only go in 37% of the time, which is a low value for a measly two-point attempt, especially considering that the league shoots 35% from beyond the 3-point line, which is just a step or two away (and those shots are worth 50% more points). 2) Those frequent misses are rebounded by the defensive team 78% of the time, which is among the highest percentages anywhere on the court; even missed 3′s provoke more offensive rebounds (23.6%) than missed long twos (22%). In other words, when you shoot a long two, your risk-reward ratio is too high.

http://courtvisionanalytics.com/the-long-two-and-josh-smith/

And remember that if your % is 40% from 3, you would need a 60% from 2 to match that (because 3s well, are worth 3pts)... And for long jumpers, this is out of reach from most nba players except some games when they catch fire. This also is the reason why Melo became a much better scorer when he started shooting so many 3s with such a high %.