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Does Anyone Appreciate How Well Raymond Felton Is Playing?
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Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:12 PM
When I learned how well validated they were
AUTOADVERT
yellowboy90
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1/2/2013  3:16 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:If you're going to isolate any one stat, here is a good one though:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/position/point-guards
On your other point: I'd rather have a combo guard plus Kidd than Felton.
We should have gone with Lin though.

Combo guards who do not penetrate when Kidd can no longer penetrate is not good. Give me their ppp as a PnR ball handler.
yellowboy90
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1/2/2013  3:19 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:When I learned how well validated they were

WHo validated them?
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:35 PM
scientists or more specifically, behavioral scientists
I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. The message is more important than the messenger anyway.
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/2/2013  3:39 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:If you're going to isolate any one stat, here is a good one though:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/position/point-guards
On your other point: I'd rather have a combo guard plus Kidd than Felton.
We should have gone with Lin though.

Combo guards who do not penetrate when Kidd can no longer penetrate is not good. Give me their ppp as a PnR ball handler.


You haven't watched much if you think Terry cannot penetrate. He can, and depending on his role, has averaged anywhere from 2 to over 7 assists a game.
You are not getting an outstanding PG for $4 mil/yr. Any weakness Terry or the other players I listed have is not as important as being the least efficient PG in the league.
yellowboy90
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1/2/2013  3:41 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:scientists or more specifically, behavioral scientists
I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. The message is more important than the messenger anyway.

Scientist really validated a stat for Bball come on man. Hey you like so good for you but WP and WS are not the end all be all.
mrKnickShot
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1/2/2013  3:42 PM
smackeddog wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
In the last 20 years, what teams won without a above average PG (or at least an efficient one)?

Lakers / triangle does not count since it does/did not require a true PG.

Miami, Lebron is the PG (we all know that)

Dallas may be the only example but they had many guards who were serviceable.

What teams did have a great PG? I don't agree with you saying, well those teams didn't need one because thats kind of my point. Lakers didn't, Miami didn't, Bulls didn't, heck when Boston won, Rondo wasn't at an elite level back then. mavs didn't, Bulls didn't, neither did the Rockets. Only team I can think of is the Spurs.

For all the talk of elite PG, none of them have won championships in recent times (which is odd).

Lakers - Kobe
Bulls - MJ
Miami - Lebron

We don't have one of those

Detroit had - Billups who had one of the highest TS's you will find (though his FG was not great)
Dallas was an exception though they had a younger Kidd and Barea went nuts in the postseason

Houston had Kenny Smith and Mr Ugly who were quite efficient and don't forget what Cassel did to us.
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:43 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:scientists or more specifically, behavioral scientists
I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. The message is more important than the messenger anyway.

Scientist really validated a stat for Bball come on man. Hey you like so good for you but WP and WS are not the end all be all.


I never said they were. They're much better than PPG or the other stats people tend to cite though.
I don't get your anti-science attitude or your obsession with the messenger rather than the message.
smackeddog
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1/2/2013  3:43 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:When I learned how well validated they were

Or maybe after you watched Moneyball

I'm really not a fan of them or behavioural scientists (my professions arch nemesis!), but some peopel (Morey) seem to have success with them.
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/2/2013  3:45 PM
what profession or group is arch enemies with social scientists? The only thing I could think of would be evangelical Christians.
yellowboy90
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1/2/2013  3:44 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:If you're going to isolate any one stat, here is a good one though:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/position/point-guards
On your other point: I'd rather have a combo guard plus Kidd than Felton.
We should have gone with Lin though.

Combo guards who do not penetrate when Kidd can no longer penetrate is not good. Give me their ppp as a PnR ball handler.


You haven't watched much if you think Terry cannot penetrate. He can, and depending on his role, has averaged anywhere from 2 to over 7 assists a game.
You are not getting an outstanding PG for $4 mil/yr. Any weakness Terry or the other players I listed have is not as important as being the least efficient PG in the league.

You must not watched the Cs this year. Terry is not the same ball handler he once was.
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:45 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:If you're going to isolate any one stat, here is a good one though:
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/scoringEfficiency/position/point-guards
On your other point: I'd rather have a combo guard plus Kidd than Felton.
We should have gone with Lin though.

Combo guards who do not penetrate when Kidd can no longer penetrate is not good. Give me their ppp as a PnR ball handler.


You haven't watched much if you think Terry cannot penetrate. He can, and depending on his role, has averaged anywhere from 2 to over 7 assists a game.
You are not getting an outstanding PG for $4 mil/yr. Any weakness Terry or the other players I listed have is not as important as being the least efficient PG in the league.

You must not watched the Cs this year. Terry is not the same ball handler he once was.


Never said he was the exact same. Re-read bold above though.
yellowboy90
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1/2/2013  3:47 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:scientists or more specifically, behavioral scientists
I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. The message is more important than the messenger anyway.

Scientist really validated a stat for Bball come on man. Hey you like so good for you but WP and WS are not the end all be all.


I never said they were. They're much better than PPG or the other stats people tend to cite though.
I don't get your anti-science attitude or your obsession with the messenger rather than the message.

I am not anti-science or have an obsession. To say that is astronomically wrong.

Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:48 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:scientists or more specifically, behavioral scientists
I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. The message is more important than the messenger anyway.

Scientist really validated a stat for Bball come on man. Hey you like so good for you but WP and WS are not the end all be all.


I never said they were. They're much better than PPG or the other stats people tend to cite though.
I don't get your anti-science attitude or your obsession with the messenger rather than the message.

I am not anti-science or have an obsession. To say that is astronomically wrong.


LOL
dk7th
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1/2/2013  3:51 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7


I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  3:53 PM
dk7th wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7


I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.


dk7th to the rescue!
dk7th
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1/2/2013  4:09 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7


I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.


dk7th to the rescue!

stat wanted ridnour back in 2010. we should have obliged him.

you can't use the FG% for wing players and backcourt players and get a good idea of their ability as shooters. of course you'd like to see point guards get to the line too so that the TS% has more meaning.

felton the last 3 seasons is averaging 2.7 fta, but just 1.8 this year
hinrich the last 3 seasons has fallen way off his career averages, dropping to just over 1 fta a game. you would expect this from a guy who's 32 years old.

meanwhile felton is just 28, supposedly at his physical prime for pro ball, yet he has been trending downward the last 3 seasons. not good.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Bonn1997
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1/2/2013  4:27 PM
dk7th wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7


I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.


dk7th to the rescue!

stat wanted ridnour back in 2010. we should have obliged him.

you can't use the FG% for wing players and backcourt players and get a good idea of their ability as shooters. of course you'd like to see point guards get to the line too so that the TS% has more meaning.

felton the last 3 seasons is averaging 2.7 fta, but just 1.8 this year
hinrich the last 3 seasons has fallen way off his career averages, dropping to just over 1 fta a game. you would expect this from a guy who's 32 years old.

meanwhile felton is just 28, supposedly at his physical prime for pro ball, yet he has been trending downward the last 3 seasons. not good.


Yeah, I've been following and surprised by that too.
smackeddog
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1/2/2013  4:53 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:what profession or group is arch enemies with social scientists? The only thing I could think of would be evangelical Christians.

Ha! I don't think I could ever see myself as an evangelical Christian! Nope, in psychotherapy there's a big debate between more social science inclinde practitioners, and those that believe things aren't possible to numerate and quantify.
mrKnickShot
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1/2/2013  4:54 PM
dk7th wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7


I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.


dk7th to the rescue!

stat wanted ridnour back in 2010. we should have obliged him.

you can't use the FG% for wing players and backcourt players and get a good idea of their ability as shooters. of course you'd like to see point guards get to the line too so that the TS% has more meaning.

felton the last 3 seasons is averaging 2.7 fta, but just 1.8 this year
hinrich the last 3 seasons has fallen way off his career averages, dropping to just over 1 fta a game. you would expect this from a guy who's 32 years old.

meanwhile felton is just 28, supposedly at his physical prime for pro ball, yet he has been trending downward the last 3 seasons. not good.

Ridnour would have been really nice.
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Does Anyone Appreciate How Well Raymond Felton Is Playing?
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