misterearl wrote:Melo2Ny - Carmelo is not a franchise-maker, shaker and baker or championship ring taker.

For the Knicks needs, Carmelo is redundant. Carmelo is talented, but he is not the elite "do whatever it takes to win" talent who instantly delivers a title to an NBA franchise. If that were the case, the Nuggets would have held a few parades down 16th Street Mall by now.

Carmelo has a specialty. That is scoring points.

The Knicks have that part covered.

What our beloved Knicks need is someone to check Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.

I dont understand that line of thinking.

You arent going to lock down guys like Paul Pierce or Garnett. At best you can hope to make them work harder and they are still likely to light you up in the playoffs. Carmelo can make Pierce work at BOTH ends of the floor.

When it comes to elite talent players you need to match them.

Melo2NYK wrote:

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

misterearl wrote:The Godfather

“Using the word stars, that’s getting to be vogue, because three guys went down to Miami,” said that man, the team president Donnie Walsh. “But I’m not accepting that’s the only way to build a team.”

“It does come down to, how good a team do you have?” (Walsh) said.

The point is not to find a player who can do what James does (which is impossible), but someone who can throttle him in the fourth quarter. Walsh is looking for players who can disrupt Rondo and Pierce on the perimeter and harass Orlando’s Dwight Howard in the paint.

“That’s why all of this year is very important,” Walsh said. “Who do we have on this team right now who can match up with those kind of guys?”

“Derrick McKey was not an All-Star,” Walsh said of the tough-minded forward, “but he could guard every one of them and stop them.”

Walsh added: “I had Mark Jackson. Did he make the All-Star team? No. But we couldn’t have won games without him.”

Most important, they all fit well with Stoudemire. Six Knicks have had at least one 20-point game this season. There are players on the roster who may yet emerge as the second-tier stars the team is seeking.

- Jonathan Abrams, NYT

It seems like your defense is rooted in what the Knicks might become and not necessarily what they are. The problem I have with that is the fact that there is little to no certainty in that. How many teams have been burned by the "potential players." Hell, we got one of those types on our team right now: Eddy Curry. We ended up surrending two lottery picks that turned into all-stars (Brandon Roy/LaMarcus Aldridge and Joakim Noah) to get him. I think if your waiting for Gallo/Chandler to become that "second-tier star," I think you'll be sadly mistaken. There hasn't been a European all-star drafted since Pau Gasol in 2001 and that dude was 20-10 by his 3rd season whereas Gallo is struggling to shoot better than 40% from the field. Wilson Chandler is a good role player but he is at his ceiling.

Not fair to compare Gallo to Gasol

Gasol was his teams first option and played C....... Gallo @ best the way the year has been going is our fourth
option!....

Has 5th most attempts on team .......

His coach has him as a wing player....

Last year was his first real year like Griffen is still a rookie this year!

After trades last year Gallo proved he could average 20 plus easy

And 9 or more boards as well ..... Gallo also plays REALLY GOOD D

He plays his role and doesnt cry about it...... You think Melo would be cool
being even second option on this team?..... He would need double Gallo's shots
to avg 8 more points and thats just facts.........

And why do you think Gallo is only our 4th option? You don't think we'd run more plays for him if he was capable of hhandling the responsibility? And please don't mention Griffin and Gallo in the same sentence. Griffin is one of the league's best PF's already. Gallo on the other hand is a role player and has had the advantage of a 2nd healthy season.

"He (Melo) would need double Gallo's shots to avg 8 more points and thats just facts." Funny thing about that is that Melo is a shooting 43% on the year (record low). Gallinari with his only complete season shot just 42% on the year. Might want to rethink your position.

First I compared Gallo missing his rookie year to Griffen missing his......

Second Melo is his teams first option cause they need him to be.....

Like Gallo was second half of last year......

I'm not saying Gallo is better then Melo by no means!!

But he is a Knick !....... And like Melo wants to be a Knick!!

Spreads floor Better then Melo and thats his role...... This offense is
about spreading floor......

Melo is a slasher like Chandler..... Not a 3 point threat like Gallo....

If you don't have a 3 point threat this system DOES NOT WORK!!!!

So why would you trade Gallo for Melo?.... What do u gain?

Ohhh 14 extra mil a year my bad!!

First, you comparing Gallo and Griffin in that respect is still irrelevant to the conversation.

Second, we need Gallo to be our 2nd option but he is only shooting better 39%.

Third, I don't care what Gallo did for 15 games last seson. We need 82 games from a supposed centerpiece on our team. You can talk all day about floor spacing but there is no better floor spacer than someone who draws a double team like Melo. Why? Because then someone is left open. Gallo has only recently been getting his shot contested by a player, hence the 39% from the field. He couldn't draw a double team if he was even the only guy on the court.

You said Gallo was in his 3rd year so I said its his second...... Peeps dont say its Griffens second year do they?
So it was relevant

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

misterearl wrote:Money Can't Buy You Love

or Chemistry

umynot and oldfan - you both are on it.

This entire slurpfest over Carmelo is driven by amateur GM bed-wetters who are never happy with what they have, and the media, who is always looking to drum up the next juicy headline.

Neither of those two have anything to do with building a championship rotation of complimentary skills. The former is always poring over the next perceived fantasy and the latter is more concerned with making a deadline than any serious effort towards sports journalism. The stone cold truth is the new Knicks don't need Carmelo to grow as a team. He stunts that process by commanding more attention. Carmelo is Al Harrington with a slightly better shooting percentage.

The new Knicks are set at every position except lead guard and center. If Mozgov ever recovers from his jet lag, center becomes less an issue. The next person who dares mention Landry Fields, Gallo or The Mayor in any (cough) "trade package" will face the unbridled wrath of The Answer Man.

Al Harrington has never carried a team, that much is for sure. Melo is a bonafide star and has dealt with that pressure. Their games are similar but OJ Mayo also has a similar game to Kobe Bryant. I don't think anyone is going to get the two confused.

And you criticize "Melo to NY" supporters for not being concerned with building a championship rotation; that "we don't need Carmelo to grow as a team." You mean to tell me that you honestly think that this is a championship caliber team in the making, without upgrades?

First we dont really know what we have YET my dude.......

But that being said we do know this....... We are 14-9....... WOW after losing six in a row in first 11
We have won 10 of 11

We are 4th ranked offense in NBA not in East in NBA..... We know that we are playing as well as I'll say generously 6 teams in NBA....

Mavs Heat Lakers San Antonio and the Celtis have been playing as well or better ball then us!!

We know we can SCORE with anyone in the WORLD!.....

So with what we Know what does Melo offer us?

More scoring? Just doesn't make sense unless its for Chandler AR Walker and Loose ends .....

Then you bring Gallo of Bench as go to guy in relief of Melo Fields and Amare......

Other then that waiting to see what we really need is the smart move...... Melo is just STARFUKCING

I love Melo and His game don't get me wrong and if we had already made trade I would be excited he was here
But the way we are playing it's too HUGE a risk to give up too much to get him is my honest opinion

Dude, look at the teams we been playing. There might only be two teams (Bulls, Hornets) that were above .500. Even more unraveling is the fact that all of thoe teams sucked defensively, allowing our offense to score at will. All we have proved is that we are no longer bottom-feeders. But what happens when we play the big boy's? We need Melo because he adds that bona-fide stud that helps legitimize our roster.

San Antonio lost to the Clippers last week.....

Golden State was UNDEFEATED at home till we showed up.....

Miami has won six in a row and only Utah was a good team .....

Wins are WIns.......

I'm not saying we are a finished product......

I'm saying Melo for the farm DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!

Mayo is def more a need then Melo...... As is a Center PF type who stays healthy and bangs the boards
like reggie evans.....

Marc Gasol and Mayo and then you could trade Curry AR CHANDLER TD Walker and Mozgov and we would have
a solid rotation and a contending team

Felton / Mayo
Mayo/ Fields
Gallo/ Fields/ Williams
Amare/ Gallo / Williams
Gasol / Turiaf

That trade helps us better then Melo 10 fold!!

Oh and Mayo in this offense would be sicker then Melo IMO

Dude, if you want to debate with someone you got to frst read what they say. I, nor anyone else, has suggested giving up the farm for Melo. My standing offer would be Curry, Gallo and Randolph (Walker if need be). That is pennies on the dollar for one of the league's best. We don't even play Curry, Randolph or Walker.

And what exactly makes you think Marc Gasol would work in our system? I thought we learned our lesson that conventional big men don't work in SSOL.

As for the first of your article:
1.) The Warriors didn't have David Lee when we played them. They only won something like 1-9 without him.

2.) When the Clippers consistently beat upper-echelon teams, get back to me. Hell, we beat the Celtics last year and that didn't mean much of anything.

3.) Miami has the same concerns as our team about whether they can legitimately compete against the best. The difference between us and them is the fact that they have the best player in the world surrounded by 2 of the 10 best players in the league.

You are obviously just someone who argues for an arguments sake

Wins are wins!! .... Period

And Fact

Miami and us having similar problems is a good thing only thing is we can improve
cause we left ourselves in position to as to Miami who is stuck with what they have...... Getting Melo kills that!

lol, so you mean to tell me that if the Heat wanted, they couldn't trade Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh or even LeBron James? Just curious, lol.

fishmike wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:If you were Denver management and Melo came to you and said "Trade me. I'm willing to extend with these 5 teams", would you want to take what the Knicks are offering over say what the Nets package would be?

Knicks offer: Chandler/AR/Curry/2nd rounders or Gallo/AR/Curry/2nd rounders

Nets offer: Devin Harris, Favors, 1st rounders

??

Haven't we read multiple times that Denver is not interested in any of the Knicks players?

The only way Denver will trade him to the Knicks is if Melo pretty much says I will only extend with the Knicks. If that's the case....don't we have them by the balls?

there are teams that will be willing to take a shot on him, and give up picks or prospects beyond Gallo + Curry. I could certainly see a team like Orlando take a shot, maybe even the Wizard and certainly the Bulls.

oh mos def there are tons of teams that would love Melo..but does he love them back?

Melo2NYK wrote:

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

umynot wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

misterearl wrote:What It Is Is What It Is

Carmelo shoots .429 from the field

23 year old Wilson Chandler shoots .462

you do the math

When Wilson Chandler starts drawing double/triple teams, give me a call. Kyle Korver is shooting 46% from the field. I wouldn't be dumb enough to take him over Kobe Bryant because Kobe is shooting 44% fom the field.

And if Melo would take lets say 3 times what Chandler makes to play for us you can give me a call

You're not a sports agent and not a Knick exec, so I doubt you know the parameters of Chandler's contract. And whatever Melo will be paid will be worth every penny as it has been in the past.

Chandler makes 3 mil...... Melo 17 mil Don't need to be an agent to know that

Apparently you need to be an agent to realize that Chandler is due for a contract extension at year's end.

Chandler due for qualifying offer next year. Extension an option.

TMS wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:If you were Denver management and Melo came to you and said "Trade me. I'm willing to extend with these 5 teams", would you want to take what the Knicks are offering over say what the Nets package would be?

Knicks offer: Chandler/AR/Curry/2nd rounders or Gallo/AR/Curry/2nd rounders

Nets offer: Devin Harris, Favors, 1st rounders

??

Haven't we read multiple times that Denver is not interested in any of the Knicks players?

The only way Denver will trade him to the Knicks is if Melo pretty much says I will only extend with the Knicks. If that's the case....don't we have them by the balls?

that's just it... Melo wants to come to the Knicks... we are his 1st choice... so DEN is in no position to be making obscene demands that would gut our entire roster for him... NJ can offer up every player they have but if Melo won't sign that extension w/them then it's all moot... if NY wants to make a run for the Finals THIS year, then making a reasonable trade offer for Melo makes sense... if they're fine with just waiting out the process & hoping Melo signs as a FA, then they can just stand pat... my guess is Dolan will want to make a run this year, considering we spent the past 2 years just purging bad contracts & setting ourselves up for a run in 2010... i think Amare & Felton have this town excited again for playoff basketball... if u add Melo into the mix, you will start hearing talk of making a run for the Finals, something we haven't been able to talk about for a long, long time.

The way I see it..I'm kinda happy either way

If we keep this squad together as a grand experiment to see if you beat the a team of 2-3 A level stars with one A level star, and a few Bs (Felton, Gallo, Chandler, etc).

If it's Amare, Melo, Felton and supporting cast of some kind.. a few seasons ago if you told me we'd have those 3 I'd be happy as hell. It'll be fun to see if 2 1st tier stars and Felton will be a better team than the axis of evil in Miami. It may come down to which GM makes better use of whatever cap space is available to find role players that make sense $wise and basketball wise.

Thoughtful piece from Howard Beck on the subject ran today in the times. Beck seems to be leaning towards the why trade for a scorer when scoring isn't a problem camp. I don't know if he's right but he presents his thoughts well. Guess that's why he gets paid to write. Whether he's a basketball expert remains to be seen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/11/sports/basketball/11knicks.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

oops didn't see that earl already posted some quotes from that article

TMS wrote:

OldFan wrote:Denver knows Mello has pressure on him not to become a free agent because he likely loses money with a new agreement or a lock out.

Mello knows that limiting yourself to one team is not the way to get the best possible deal.

It's very unlikely the Knicks are going to get Melo for 50 cents on the dollar.

it's absolutely in Melo's best interest to be traded right now & work out a contract extension w/his new team... i think that goes w/o saying... but he's already stated he's willing to wait out the process if need be... if he were so hell bent on getting the dollars now he would have signed the extension DEN already offered him & then maneuvered to be traded out of there next year, but he hasn't... he's giving DEN a chance to get something back for him in return now but clearly has a destination in mind where he'd like to end up... all signs point to the Knicks right now as being that destination... he's given the Nuggets advance notice that if they can't work out a deal w/a team he wants to play for, that he's gone this summer & they won't get back anything... the pressure is more on DEN now to get a deal done that Melo is amenable to, because they'd never live it down if they let their franchise guy walk & get nothing back after having advance notice given to them.

and yes I guess it is kind of naive on my part to think that Melo loves the idea of playing for the Knicks more than the security of 65 million. It would be kinda cool if he did though eh?

misterearl wrote:What It Is Is What It Is

"It seems like your defense is rooted in what the Knicks might become and not necessarily what they are

Nope. My defense is firmly rooted in the present. Does 11 of the last 12 mean anything?

"Wilson Chandler is a good role player but he is at his ceiling."

and you know this how exactly?

The Mayor has improved each year in the league and is still growing.

Carmelo is Al Harrington with a slightly better shooting percentage. He brings no additional defensive tenacity, no rebounding and no additional assists. He does bring a cute wife, high expectations for the press to salivate over and the promise of more manufactured superstar drama.

unfair. Melo and Harrington derive their value from the same thing mostly..scoring. But Melo is the Ferrari of scoring and Harrington is like..a Ford Focus?

oh and the idea of Gasol and Mayo on this squad is really interesting...

Think Heisley is determined to keep Gasol though and Zach goes. He's playing like a beast and sum1 will overpay him.

misterearl wrote:GodSaveTheKnicks - Melo is NOT the Ferrari of scoring. That is reserved for Michael Jordan and Melo is no Michael Jordan. Carmelo is closer to a Ford Expedition. High volume, large capacity and will get you across I-70 to Vail. But it may not look so jazzy on Broadway.

Al Harrington is more like a Range Rover. Looks cool but burns a lot of fuel.

Ok fine maybe not Ferrari but at least a Lexus!

And hey if we get Melo and it looks like a big man who can defend, block shots, rebound is a bigger priority we can always gut some other team in a Melo trade. Right?

2011-2012 season - all the naysayers are proven right and Melo is a terrible fit

Trade Melo forrrr....

Noah once Chicago realizes they were dumb not to include Noah

Al Horford...this would be pretty awesome

Serge Ibaka + Russell Westbrook?
Roy Hibbert plus Granger?

see how fun this is?

Despite Melo's flaws unless he gets injured I doubt he'll ever become a contract albatross like uhh..i dunno..Rashard Lewis or Zach Randolph.

Speaking of which..Zach Randolph..once considered elite. 20/10 guys don't grow on trees. Knucklehead on and off the court for much of his career, not really known to be a great defender or passer. Hmmm. Ok maybe there's a tiny chance Melo could become an albatross though I think he's nowhere near as crazy as ZBo used to be but again..highly doubt it

misterearl wrote:GodSave - unless you can name one NBA franchise with an idiot as GM, there is no such thing as "gutting" another team.

Work with me here. The impatience for the quick fix must be tempered with the fact that some trades backfire. Before we think about shifting each and EVERY role on the team, which is what the acquisition of Carmelo will do, think long and hard about the development of a Landry Fields, who shows signs of being the best most fundamentally sound Knicks player since Bill Bradley.

Do you really propose to sacrifice the chemistry and camaraderie forged on the west coast road trip when our boys were 3-8 and going nowhere?

Carmelo was not here for that.

These guys earned our respect to the point they are the subject of national sports shows, national coverage this week and a HUGE game next Friday.

Carmelo had nothing to do with that.

Mistah Earl. First off..the league's history is littered with idiot GMs so even if only an idiot GM would gut his team for Melo, I'm sure we can find someone to trade Melo to if need be, no?

I am not in the 100% convinced Melo is The Answer camp. I've had some long long long debates with TMS (I think it was him) on Melo's value.

I just think sometimes people get caught up in arguments and go too extreme in painting Melo as Basketball Jesus (only Larry Bird can hold that title) or as horribly overrated inefficient chucker (Steve Francis?) or the next Rashard Lewis (Rashard = soft, even on offense. Melo is pretty brolic on offense and can guard when he wants to)

Like I said before I have no problem with letting this current team grow and trying to find a big man who can complement Amare (doesn't need the ball, does dirty work)and can run the floor. Really really really wish Joakim Noah or Horford was available.

If Melo comes here I am forced to hold out the hope he could grow as a player....maybe change his game once he has an big like Amare to play with (totally diff. skill set from Nene)and doesn't have to carry the scoring load by himself (even though one could argue that he's a bit of a ball stopper with some decent scorers in Denver with him)...and at the very least I'd expect him to play his heart out on D in a playoff battle with Miami or Boston.

Am I worried that maybe his basketball IQ lags behind his obvious talent..yeah.

Am I worried that maybe he wants to be like Mike (or Bernard King) on offense without the MJ like D and work ethic, yeah.

Do I like the idea of maxing out a player who's not defensively elite..not really. Yes similar things have been said about Dirk, Nash and others. And yes Melo/Dirk/Nash are probably still max or near max worthy players in spite of it. I just have a personal bias for KG/Duncan/Scottie Pippen types who can contribute on both ends consistently..not just when they feel like it. That just got me dreaming about:

Felton
Fields
Scottie Pippen
Amare
Turiaf

Bench: Gallo, whoever

What was I talking about again?

GodSave - you make some excellent points. Lost in the back and forth, before your wonderful description, is the fact that our Knicks are downright entertaining. On Broadway, that is huge. With that said, HOrford is the new face of the franchise in Atlanta and unless someone in the Knicks front office has the nude photos on Yannick, Joakim ain't coming to Te Garden either.

Carmelo's gifts are obvious. Volume shooting aside, I share your concern about maturity and consistency on both ends. For that reason, one of Landry Fields best games was the night he went 1-7 from the field. Did he sulk or stop making his team better? Nope. He snatched 11 rebounds. Knicks win again.

Or stated another way, "does Mike D'Antoni have more juice in his card than George Karl to tell Carmelo exactly what role he needs to play in New York?"

Will Carmelo listen and conform to SSOL (or whatever the hell the Knicks run), or does he play basketball the only way he knows how?

The Answer Man can smell a manufactured "controversy" a mile away.