Bonn1997 wrote:

Papabear wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I don't think anyone's bashing Melo for the playoffs. He's played his role as a scoring specialist quite well. You seem to be in an alternate universe.

Papabear Says

In your definition please explain your meaning of a scoring specialist that you say thats all Melo is. Please explain. And why he is nothing else in your opinion. These are your words and you keep on saying it. Oh by the way Jamal Crawford is a scoring specialist. How do you compare??

If you're below average at everything other than scoring, you are a scoring specialist. That's not to say the team doesn't need him. He's playing a very important role.

First of all you know that that's not his regular position and you are not truthful about his rebounds. He is only playing that 4 spot because of Stat's injuries. Melo is doing what is needed to win. He has even played center and has been guarding centers and big 4 s. His team depends upon him to open up spots so the floor can spread He has taken hits to the head and body without any calls being made. My man you are wrong. Melo is more than just a scoring specialist. He is the Franchise of the New York Knick. It would hurt you too much to admit that.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:The so called scoring specialist has been the best all around player in the NBA the last month, playoffs included...He shut down Jeff Green in the second half of game 1 after a great start...No one has been playing better basketball than Carmelo the last month, regular season and playoffs, LeBron included...Tim Duncan has been balling but hardly played in the last month..

Our views couldn't be more diametrically opposed but I can't imagine that there's anything left to discuss. I do give Melo credit for excelling in one dimension of the game though. He's playing his role as the efficient high PPG player well.

Well you are wrong as usual..His defense has been excellent as well...He is doing exactly what the team needs to do the most important thing and that's win games...His rebounding numbers was excellent as well in April because the team needed it...You was trying to marginalized his contribution as you usually do, but he is leading this team to wins, the most critical stat in the NBA, and not even you can argue that..

His defensive stats are average. His rebounding in March was a little below average for a PF but you shouldn't give more weight to any one month of the season anyway. I don't marginalize his contributions - the team would be in trouble without him (but also in trouble without Kidd, Prigs, K-Mart, or Chandler). I just don't glorify scoring specialists either. I would not call him remotely close to a superstar but I would call him an important player.
BTW, telling someone they're wrong - no matter how many times you repeat it - does not make it so.

You absolutely do try to marginalize him by calling him a scoring specialist...He has played excellent defense the last month...I'm not sure what defensive stats you refer to...His rebounding at the end of the season was excellent as well...He isn't a PF, he plays the position because the team needs him to...Felton isn't a SG...He did win player of the month in the NBA, did you miss that???...And If you don't think Melo is a Superstar, you can understand the reason we are hold such diametrically opposing views...The most important stat possible in the NBA is being up 3-0 in the playoffs on an opponent...Melo is the most important ingredient on the team to create that outcome...

Right, I can understand your view - but I believe there is strong evidence refuting its validity. I believe most fans (including those voting for the awards) have glorified high PPG rather than viewing it as just one of many dimensions of the game. There's strong scientific evidence for that. If you're not going to accept that premise, there is nothing left to discuss. We will be diametrically opposed in any specific evaluation of players simply because we're starting from a very different premise. There's really no point in going through each player in the league on a month by month basis.

No, there are fans? like yourself that glorify stats while missing the rest of the game..There are very important parts of the game that stats can't come close to quantifying...STATs are a byproduct of the game...There is only one stat that matters, wins...

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:The so called scoring specialist has been the best all around player in the NBA the last month, playoffs included...He shut down Jeff Green in the second half of game 1 after a great start...No one has been playing better basketball than Carmelo the last month, regular season and playoffs, LeBron included...Tim Duncan has been balling but hardly played in the last month..

Our views couldn't be more diametrically opposed but I can't imagine that there's anything left to discuss. I do give Melo credit for excelling in one dimension of the game though. He's playing his role as the efficient high PPG player well.

Well you are wrong as usual..His defense has been excellent as well...He is doing exactly what the team needs to do the most important thing and that's win games...His rebounding numbers was excellent as well in April because the team needed it...You was trying to marginalized his contribution as you usually do, but he is leading this team to wins, the most critical stat in the NBA, and not even you can argue that..

His defensive stats are average. His rebounding in March was a little below average for a PF but you shouldn't give more weight to any one month of the season anyway. I don't marginalize his contributions - the team would be in trouble without him (but also in trouble without Kidd, Prigs, K-Mart, or Chandler). I just don't glorify scoring specialists either. I would not call him remotely close to a superstar but I would call him an important player.
BTW, telling someone they're wrong - no matter how many times you repeat it - does not make it so.

You absolutely do try to marginalize him by calling him a scoring specialist...He has played excellent defense the last month...I'm not sure what defensive stats you refer to...His rebounding at the end of the season was excellent as well...He isn't a PF, he plays the position because the team needs him to...Felton isn't a SG...He did win player of the month in the NBA, did you miss that???...And If you don't think Melo is a Superstar, you can understand the reason we are hold such diametrically opposing views...The most important stat possible in the NBA is being up 3-0 in the playoffs on an opponent...Melo is the most important ingredient on the team to create that outcome...

Right, I can understand your view - but I believe there is strong evidence refuting its validity. I believe most fans (including those voting for the awards) have glorified high PPG rather than viewing it as just one of many dimensions of the game. There's strong scientific evidence for that. If you're not going to accept that premise, there is nothing left to discuss. We will be diametrically opposed in any specific evaluation of players simply because we're starting from a very different premise. There's really no point in going through each player in the league on a month by month basis.

No, there are fans? like yourself that glorify stats while missing the rest of the game..There are very important parts of the game that stats can't come close to quantifying...STATs are a byproduct of the game...There is only one stat that matters, wins...

Actually, we agree 100% on the last point. We just disagree on how to evaluate each player's contributions to the wins.

You can't quantify heart, drive and will...Your stats will probably say DWill is a better player than Melo, but who would u rather go to war with???

holfresh wrote:Bonn, u also thought all those wins in Denver meant something...I argued for most of the season that Denver's win were a product of their environment...How is that debate looking now???

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Bonn, u also thought all those wins in Denver meant something...I argued for most of the season that Denver's win were a product of their environment...How is that debate looking now???

Pointless for anything other than entertainment. You don't evaluate a theory based on one case in general, and certainly not based on one series. The value or lack thereof of the sabermetrics will be established in studies presented in peer-reviewed scholarly journals.
Regarding your other question, I like Melo's and D-Will's skill sets and for a certain price would take them but I wouldn't give either a max contract. I've been pretty clear about which players I think are devalued and I wanted us to get (or keep): I've pointed out guys like Harden, Tyson, Milsap, and for lower salaries, Reddick and Novak. That's besides the obvious choices that everyone wants like Lebron and Durant. I haven't talked nearly as much about Prigs but I'm quite impressed with what he's done too.

Well looking at Denver's road victories versus their home wins, it seems that teams have trouble playing in Denver on a one off basis during the regular season..Denver has a losing record on the road..But u can look at the last 8 years of playoff basketball and evaluate what happen when teams have time to adjust to the altitude...Denver should not be having trouble with GS if your stats and evaluation were correct...

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:The so called scoring specialist has been the best all around player in the NBA the last month, playoffs included...He shut down Jeff Green in the second half of game 1 after a great start...No one has been playing better basketball than Carmelo the last month, regular season and playoffs, LeBron included...Tim Duncan has been balling but hardly played in the last month..

Our views couldn't be more diametrically opposed but I can't imagine that there's anything left to discuss. I do give Melo credit for excelling in one dimension of the game though. He's playing his role as the efficient high PPG player well.

Well you are wrong as usual..His defense has been excellent as well...He is doing exactly what the team needs to do the most important thing and that's win games...His rebounding numbers was excellent as well in April because the team needed it...You was trying to marginalized his contribution as you usually do, but he is leading this team to wins, the most critical stat in the NBA, and not even you can argue that..

His defensive stats are average. His rebounding in March was a little below average for a PF but you shouldn't give more weight to any one month of the season anyway. I don't marginalize his contributions - the team would be in trouble without him (but also in trouble without Kidd, Prigs, K-Mart, or Chandler). I just don't glorify scoring specialists either. I would not call him remotely close to a superstar but I would call him an important player.
BTW, telling someone they're wrong - no matter how many times you repeat it - does not make it so.

You absolutely do try to marginalize him by calling him a scoring specialist...He has played excellent defense the last month...I'm not sure what defensive stats you refer to...His rebounding at the end of the season was excellent as well...He isn't a PF, he plays the position because the team needs him to...Felton isn't a SG...He did win player of the month in the NBA, did you miss that???...And If you don't think Melo is a Superstar, you can understand the reason we are hold such diametrically opposing views...The most important stat possible in the NBA is being up 3-0 in the playoffs on an opponent...Melo is the most important ingredient on the team to create that outcome...

Right, I can understand your view - but I believe there is strong evidence refuting its validity. I believe most fans (including those voting for the awards) have glorified high PPG rather than viewing it as just one of many dimensions of the game. There's strong scientific evidence for that. If you're not going to accept that premise, there is nothing left to discuss. We will be diametrically opposed in any specific evaluation of players simply because we're starting from a very different premise. There's really no point in going through each player in the league on a month by month basis.

No, there are fans? like yourself that glorify stats while missing the rest of the game..There are very important parts of the game that stats can't come close to quantifying...STATs are a byproduct of the game...There is only one stat that matters, wins...

Actually, we agree 100% on the last point. We just disagree on how to evaluate each player's contributions to the wins.

You can't quantify heart, drive and will...Your stats will probably say DWill is a better player than Melo, but who would u rather go to war with???

I don't know about the things you listed b ut I do think roles and schemes need to be considered. I know this is a little off base but even though Revis doesn't lead the league in ints he is still the best corner. In basketball you really have to go beyond the box score. Sometimes the box score lies.

Take a look at around the 30 sec. mark and tell me what you see.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9217005

Well that is more to the point when u consider Carmelo isn't it...There is so much more beyond a box-score to measure an individual...It's crazy that such points have to be argued in forums where people claim they watch and evaluate the game...But again, some use stats as spin to marginalize certain players...

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:The so called scoring specialist has been the best all around player in the NBA the last month, playoffs included...He shut down Jeff Green in the second half of game 1 after a great start...No one has been playing better basketball than Carmelo the last month, regular season and playoffs, LeBron included...Tim Duncan has been balling but hardly played in the last month..

Our views couldn't be more diametrically opposed but I can't imagine that there's anything left to discuss. I do give Melo credit for excelling in one dimension of the game though. He's playing his role as the efficient high PPG player well.

Well you are wrong as usual..His defense has been excellent as well...He is doing exactly what the team needs to do the most important thing and that's win games...His rebounding numbers was excellent as well in April because the team needed it...You was trying to marginalized his contribution as you usually do, but he is leading this team to wins, the most critical stat in the NBA, and not even you can argue that..

His defensive stats are average. His rebounding in March was a little below average for a PF but you shouldn't give more weight to any one month of the season anyway. I don't marginalize his contributions - the team would be in trouble without him (but also in trouble without Kidd, Prigs, K-Mart, or Chandler). I just don't glorify scoring specialists either. I would not call him remotely close to a superstar but I would call him an important player.
BTW, telling someone they're wrong - no matter how many times you repeat it - does not make it so.

You absolutely do try to marginalize him by calling him a scoring specialist...He has played excellent defense the last month...I'm not sure what defensive stats you refer to...His rebounding at the end of the season was excellent as well...He isn't a PF, he plays the position because the team needs him to...Felton isn't a SG...He did win player of the month in the NBA, did you miss that???...And If you don't think Melo is a Superstar, you can understand the reason we are hold such diametrically opposing views...The most important stat possible in the NBA is being up 3-0 in the playoffs on an opponent...Melo is the most important ingredient on the team to create that outcome...

Right, I can understand your view - but I believe there is strong evidence refuting its validity. I believe most fans (including those voting for the awards) have glorified high PPG rather than viewing it as just one of many dimensions of the game. There's strong scientific evidence for that. If you're not going to accept that premise, there is nothing left to discuss. We will be diametrically opposed in any specific evaluation of players simply because we're starting from a very different premise. There's really no point in going through each player in the league on a month by month basis.

No, there are fans? like yourself that glorify stats while missing the rest of the game..There are very important parts of the game that stats can't come close to quantifying...STATs are a byproduct of the game...There is only one stat that matters, wins...

Actually, we agree 100% on the last point. We just disagree on how to evaluate each player's contributions to the wins.

You can't quantify heart, drive and will...Your stats will probably say DWill is a better player than Melo, but who would u rather go to war with???

I don't know about the things you listed b ut I do think roles and schemes need to be considered. I know this is a little off base but even though Revis doesn't lead the league in ints he is still the best corner. In basketball you really have to go beyond the box score. Sometimes the box score lies.

Take a look at around the 30 sec. mark and tell me what you see.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9217005

Well that is more to the point when u consider Carmelo isn't it...There is so much more beyond a box-score to measure an individual...It's crazy that such points have to be argued in forums where people claim they watch and evaluate the game...But again, some use stats as spin to marginalize certain players...

If you look at the highlight you will see a pass to Felton but it is not considered an assist. I guess Melo dropped it.

Well more important than the actual tally of the assist that most here feels is a key stat to judge a player, is the attention he draws from the opposing team..This frees up his teammates to get open looks...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:The so called scoring specialist has been the best all around player in the NBA the last month, playoffs included...He shut down Jeff Green in the second half of game 1 after a great start...No one has been playing better basketball than Carmelo the last month, regular season and playoffs, LeBron included...Tim Duncan has been balling but hardly played in the last month..

Our views couldn't be more diametrically opposed but I can't imagine that there's anything left to discuss. I do give Melo credit for excelling in one dimension of the game though. He's playing his role as the efficient high PPG player well.

Well you are wrong as usual..His defense has been excellent as well...He is doing exactly what the team needs to do the most important thing and that's win games...His rebounding numbers was excellent as well in April because the team needed it...You was trying to marginalized his contribution as you usually do, but he is leading this team to wins, the most critical stat in the NBA, and not even you can argue that..

His defensive stats are average. His rebounding in March was a little below average for a PF but you shouldn't give more weight to any one month of the season anyway. I don't marginalize his contributions - the team would be in trouble without him (but also in trouble without Kidd, Prigs, K-Mart, or Chandler). I just don't glorify scoring specialists either. I would not call him remotely close to a superstar but I would call him an important player.
BTW, telling someone they're wrong - no matter how many times you repeat it - does not make it so.

You absolutely do try to marginalize him by calling him a scoring specialist...He has played excellent defense the last month...I'm not sure what defensive stats you refer to...His rebounding at the end of the season was excellent as well...He isn't a PF, he plays the position because the team needs him to...Felton isn't a SG...He did win player of the month in the NBA, did you miss that???...And If you don't think Melo is a Superstar, you can understand the reason we are hold such diametrically opposing views...The most important stat possible in the NBA is being up 3-0 in the playoffs on an opponent...Melo is the most important ingredient on the team to create that outcome...

Right, I can understand your view - but I believe there is strong evidence refuting its validity. I believe most fans (including those voting for the awards) have glorified high PPG rather than viewing it as just one of many dimensions of the game. There's strong scientific evidence for that. If you're not going to accept that premise, there is nothing left to discuss. We will be diametrically opposed in any specific evaluation of players simply because we're starting from a very different premise. There's really no point in going through each player in the league on a month by month basis.

No, there are fans? like yourself that glorify stats while missing the rest of the game..There are very important parts of the game that stats can't come close to quantifying...STATs are a byproduct of the game...There is only one stat that matters, wins...

Hey Holfresh my friend. Just let it go! A guy like him gets his rocks off debating in this manner. You proved your point and case. He has showed one thing to me. He is a person with an agenda and you know what that is hate on Melo in a phony way. Let me tell you why. Deep down inside he wants nothing to do with this Knicks run as long as Melo is the Superstar and he is a superstar. if Melo won the MVP of the playoffs he would have something to say negative about Melo. But hey you said your piece. Now just relax have a beer or soda or juice. Watch some of the games or just post your opinion about something else. Just let this dude go and believe me you won the debate hands down. Peace.