martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I could see KAT taking the next step here in NY. Yes. Same stratosphere as Jokic and Embiid? Not yet. But not out of realm of possibility.

It's not out of the realm of possibility that KAT can make some gradual steps. But he's entering season 10. I can say it's highly unlikely that KAT enters the Jokic/Embiid. I know, but Jalen! The difference is that KAT was given unlimited minutes and rostered built to his needs.

Crazy to think a guy who will be making $60 needs to take the “next step”?

We did not trade just Randle for KAT.
Which one can still argue who is better. Including value of contracts.
Worry is that we traded two shot creators for a guy that enjoys pitting up 30 footers.
Can be argued Bridges will be the number two shot creator.
Which means our $60M final piece is a number three?

I don't think you need to argue that, in fact, I think it's the truth but someone else help me out. Mikal and DDV are at the same level cutters and passers in that SG role. So no dropoff there. I'd go as far as to say Mikal has a better mid range game to boot. Would DDV have done the same output in the Mikal role last year? Doubt it.

And Kolek gonna pass the bejesus out of the ball! And you know Deuce gonna up his game too

IMHO, Bridges is a little better than Donte. As you said.
Question with Bridges trade for me was why upgrade slightly at cost paid? And future contract implications. Which KAT just killed.
Nonetheless , we upgraded slightly with Bridges over Donte.
Feel we upgraded slightly with KAT over Randle.

Question again, is cost and my feeling that we needed another high end shot creator. Probably one better than JB. Which was what I would have preferred over a possible third option to create.
We saw last year that as good as JB is a, elite teams will stop a team’s 6’1 best player. As many teams have found out in the past in pursuit of a chip.

My worry is not IF we have a really good team. We do! More that we already had one and we needed that next level last piece to get us a chip. Cuz everyone can agree all our assets are gone and the FO has placed its bet on THIS move. Can they make adjustments? Sure. But secondary worry is the ease of moving a $60 million contract to relieve cap issues.

Look, I’ll have my KAT jersey opening day. Excited about season. Understand shortcomings of Randle and Debo. Also understood their strengths. Thin KAT is a hell of a player. But we all know what we all want. Feeling as though a better move could have been made is typical fandom ****.
Good news is, just about every move the FO has made has been a positive. Hoping this one is as well. Cuz it’s the big one.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal is much better than Donte, not "a little". He's an ultra efficient, two way wing who can create his own shot and defend all over the court. we won't need him to score 20 here, but i think he'll be a 16-17ppg 50/40 guy here with elite D.

Donte last year shot 40% from 3 stripe. Mikal 37
Donte averaged 15.5 as a sub and 5 bless minutes per game. Mikal 19.6 as number 1.
If you look back to Mikal in similar role as Divo had with Knicks, Mikal averaged 17 and shot 38%. Not a lot better?

And again, like with KAT, you are leaving out a big part of putting a roster together which is cost vs value.
Mikal who is a little better than Divo is making twice as much as him and due for negotiations next year.

you're taking a career year from DDV and it still doesn't match Mikal. Mikal wasn't a #1. In his PHO days as a #3 he shot over 50% 3 straight seasons while shooting 40% from 3.

and of course you leave out defense where Mikal is one of the best in the league and has much more size.

Nets had teams offering troves of picks for Mikal, you think DDV would have netted them 5 firsts?

DDV had a great year and he's a really good shooter, you can make the case he's as good or better a shooter, but overall? Mikal is a much better more complete, more efficient, two way player and its not close. DDV is going on 5 teams in 5 seasons. he's nowhere near the player Mikal is.

nycericanguy wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal is much better than Donte, not "a little". He's an ultra efficient, two way wing who can create his own shot and defend all over the court. we won't need him to score 20 here, but i think he'll be a 16-17ppg 50/40 guy here with elite D.

Donte last year shot 40% from 3 stripe. Mikal 37
Donte averaged 15.5 as a sub and 5 bless minutes per game. Mikal 19.6 as number 1.
If you look back to Mikal in similar role as Divo had with Knicks, Mikal averaged 17 and shot 38%. Not a lot better?

And again, like with KAT, you are leaving out a big part of putting a roster together which is cost vs value.
Mikal who is a little better than Divo is making twice as much as him and due for negotiations next year.

you're taking a career year from DDV and it still doesn't match Mikal. Mikal wasn't a #1. In his PHO days as a #3 he shot over 50% 3 straight seasons while shooting 40% from 3.

and of course you leave out defense where Mikal is one of the best in the league and has much more size.

Nets had teams offering troves of picks for Mikal, you think DDV would have netted them 5 firsts?

DDV had a great year and he's a really good shooter, but he's going on 5 teams in 5 seasons. he's nowhere near the player Mikal is.

Mikal shot 40% from three once. (career year?) As has Divo. But minimal detail.

Career year when it's the most recent is pretty important in projecting current value of a player. Are you still basing Mikal's value on 2020?

Defense, if you watched Nets games was not of the legend you speak of but I'll give you that he is a better defender. Guess you leave that out when defending KAT?

Picks given by Knicks only emphasizes my biggest gripe about the Mikal trade. We will see if all those picks and commitment to Mikal pays off. Hoping Leon, once again, is right.

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal is much better than Donte, not "a little". He's an ultra efficient, two way wing who can create his own shot and defend all over the court. we won't need him to score 20 here, but i think he'll be a 16-17ppg 50/40 guy here with elite D.

This is not even remotely close to a debate. Mikal is an elite defender with positional size and length who can put up an efficient 18-20ppg. DDV is an undersized sniper who plays hard on D but gets exposed a lot. Mikal has a much bigger offensive bag if were focused on shot creation (DDV was well below average shot creator off the bounce). And it's not even close on D. Mikal was 2nd in DPOY voting a few years ago.

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal is much better than Donte, not "a little". He's an ultra efficient, two way wing who can create his own shot and defend all over the court. we won't need him to score 20 here, but i think he'll be a 16-17ppg 50/40 guy here with elite D.

This is not even remotely close to a debate. Mikal is an elite defender with positional size and length who can put up an efficient 18-20ppg. DDV is an undersized sniper who plays hard on D but gets exposed a lot. Mikal has a much bigger offensive bag if were focused on shot creation (DDV was well below average shot creator off the bounce). And it's not even close on D. Mikal was 2nd in DPOY voting a few years ago.

DDV’s elite skill is a very good one at his position. That fast trigger catch and shoot. It takes no time at all for him to get his shot off. That fast twitch reaction on D was also very disruptive. He plays his role very well. You just can’t sag off of him on D. He was a valuable player on this team but yeah, over all Bridges is the better player.

The deal isn’t finished yet so are the players allowed to change cities? I assume yes because they need to take physicals but maybe just not practice or spend time with their new teams?

Agree that they are completely different players so it's not ideal to compare, but I don't think one GM in the league would take DDV over Mikal from a pure impact standpoint.

With regards to your second question. They asked Brunson at media day if he spoke to "Karl" and he said "who's Karl?" as if he knew he wasn't allowed to speak on the trade yet. But I saw photos of KAT with a Knicks hat in NY from today.

DLeethal wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:We all wanted to see Julius Randle in triple double beast mode, but I think Josh Hart provides the same upside. Josh won't average 20 a game but 10/10/5 were what he averaged once he became a full time starter. One of the few gripes I ever heard from Thibs about Randle was his tendency to walk it up the court after securing the defensive rebound. Now Josh will be pushing the pace with the a 7ft deadeye shooter as the trailer.

Good post. Josh’s attack and kick game becomes critical now. He’s our downhill guy which he’s proven to be very good at and now has tons of space.

Interest take. Here are the per 100 possession numbers of both players. Assist and TO ratio is interesting. Not a ton of rebounding dropoff.

I know Hart is considered one of the best rim finishing guards out there? I think that is correct.

Player 	G 	GS 	FG 	FGA 	FG% 	3P 	3PA 	3P% 	2P 	2PA 	2P% 	ORB 	DRB 	TRB 	AST 	STL 	BLK 	TOV 	PF 	PTS 	ORtg 	DRtg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hart	81	42	5.5	12.6	.434	1.5	4.8	.310	4.0	7.8	.511	2.4	10.2	12.6	6.2	1.4	0.4	2.2	3.2	14.2	115	113
Randle	46	46	12.2	25.9	.472	2.4	7.5	.311	9.9	18.3	.539	3.1	10.0	13.1	7.1	0.8	0.4	4.9	3.9	34.1	113	114

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal is much better than Donte, not "a little". He's an ultra efficient, two way wing who can create his own shot and defend all over the court. we won't need him to score 20 here, but i think he'll be a 16-17ppg 50/40 guy here with elite D.

This is not even remotely close to a debate. Mikal is an elite defender with positional size and length who can put up an efficient 18-20ppg. DDV is an undersized sniper who plays hard on D but gets exposed a lot. Mikal has a much bigger offensive bag if were focused on shot creation (DDV was well below average shot creator off the bounce). And it's not even close on D. Mikal was 2nd in DPOY voting a few years ago.

DDV’s elite skill is a very good one at his position. That fast trigger catch and shoot. It takes no time at all for him to get his shot off. That fast twitch reaction on D was also very disruptive. He plays his role very well. You just can’t sag off of him on D. He was a valuable player on this team but yeah, over all Bridges is the better player.

The deal isn’t finished yet so are the players allowed to change cities? I assume yes because they need to take physicals but maybe just not practice or spend time with their new teams?

Agree that they are completely different players so it's not ideal to compare, but I don't think one GM in the league would take DDV over Mikal from a pure impact standpoint.

With regards to your second question. They asked Brunson at media day if he spoke to "Karl" and he said "who's Karl?" as if he knew he wasn't allowed to speak on the trade yet. But I saw photos of KAT with a Knicks hat in NY from today.

honestly if you want to compare DDV to anyone it's probably Shamet and as always in hindsight i dont think that was a coincidence at all with this FO.

I think it's McBride and Shamet. I think Donte was probably the third guard off the bench. Throw in the rumors that the team consider Deuce as more of a small wing. Honestly, it's probably just Deuce. Slets be real. Shamet is a break in case of emergency player.

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:Mikal is much better than Donte, not "a little". He's an ultra efficient, two way wing who can create his own shot and defend all over the court. we won't need him to score 20 here, but i think he'll be a 16-17ppg 50/40 guy here with elite D.

This is not even remotely close to a debate. Mikal is an elite defender with positional size and length who can put up an efficient 18-20ppg. DDV is an undersized sniper who plays hard on D but gets exposed a lot. Mikal has a much bigger offensive bag if were focused on shot creation (DDV was well below average shot creator off the bounce). And it's not even close on D. Mikal was 2nd in DPOY voting a few years ago.

DDV’s elite skill is a very good one at his position. That fast trigger catch and shoot. It takes no time at all for him to get his shot off. That fast twitch reaction on D was also very disruptive. He plays his role very well. You just can’t sag off of him on D. He was a valuable player on this team but yeah, over all Bridges is the better player.

The deal isn’t finished yet so are the players allowed to change cities? I assume yes because they need to take physicals but maybe just not practice or spend time with their new teams?

Agree that they are completely different players so it's not ideal to compare, but I don't think one GM in the league would take DDV over Mikal from a pure impact standpoint.

With regards to your second question. They asked Brunson at media day if he spoke to "Karl" and he said "who's Karl?" as if he knew he wasn't allowed to speak on the trade yet. But I saw photos of KAT with a Knicks hat in NY from today.

honestly if you want to compare DDV to anyone it's probably Shamet and as always in hindsight i dont think that was a coincidence at all with this FO.

I think it's McBride and Shamet. I think Donte was probably the third guard off the bench. Throw in the rumors that the team consider Deuce as more of a small wing. Honestly, it's probably just Deuce. Slets be real. Shamet is a break in case of emergency player.

Deuce doesnt have the quick release like Shamet and DDV. I think he's a dif kind of player.

I can see Deuce paired with Bridges with Mikal's ball handling skills. Throw in some Shamet when Brunson is resting. Payne is the odd man out.

When Brunson is resting

Deuce, Shamet, Bridges, OG and Precious

DLeethal wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I think it’s overly simplistic to say “who’s number two shot creator”. Towns will be #2 scorer, Bridges probably will have the second most iso attempts if that’s what we’re talking about. But pretty much anyone can get you a bucket or make a play in a late shotclock scenario.

Overly simplistic is to say 'anyone can get you a bucket late in the clock'.
Have you watched the NBA in the playoffs. You need elite shot creators to get you a shot.
Minny needed someone else besides AE to do so in their series last year. How did KAT do? Since anyone can do it.
We lost the first two games of the Indy series because Indy shut down JB.

Goal is to win a chip. Saying we are slightly disappointed with some negatives of a player is par for the course. No one is ever happy. We have a real good team. Think we got better with the trade. Just not on the happy bus that we just won the chip like some are saying online. Was on record to say that OG was a good move. Not great. Due to his injury history and lack of dog. Got a lot of push back. Come the playoffs and.....

With that said, think we win 55 plus and go deep in the playoffs. Question is how we do against you know who.

My point was that basketball isn't played by taking turns. Basically everyone in our starting lineup can create a shot when needed. You need shot creators yes, you don't need some rigid pecking order of 1:1 shot creators. JB is an elite shot creator in iso. JB/KAT PnR will be an elite action for getting shots. Bridges/KAT are probably in the "good-to-very-good" shot creator category. OG is solid face up player in the short/mid range and looks like mini Kawhi at times. And Hart has shown an uncanny ability to get shots off late in the clock and he's the last guy in the pecking order. There is no Mitch type of dud in the lineup. And there is no guy who can't put the ball on the floor to create something. Everyone can create.

I watched Kat have a great playoff run to the WCF, where they lost. Is that because they ran out of shot creators or because they got beat? Did every team that didn't win the championship not win because they ran out of shot creators?

Again, we are talking about winning a chip. And ABSOLUTELY you need multiple shot creators.
Look at the teams that have won a chip. This is the iso NBA not the 70 NBA or NCAA. Boston has Tatum and Brown who are elite shot creators. And of course, as you said it’s a team effort so you need really good shooting and role pieces around them like KP, Hortford etc. Imo, We just got KP for Brown and Tatum money.

You may think i am ****ting on the move because I think we suck now. Said it several times, we are a better team than last year. Problem is , in order to win the chip , I feel, we need two JB, if not better shot creators. Hoping KAT can prove and live up to his salary that he is one of them.