SupremeCommander wrote:

Chandler wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Chandler wrote:I apparently am in the minority and think this is an awful trade and another sign of FO incompetence of the highest order

1) people talk about fragile KP -- See Joel Embid, Lebron and a host of others who routinely miss extended periods due to wear and tear.
2) He is a young all star with more probability of being a 2-way superstar than anyone we have had in a generation
3) his biggest sin has been in telling the truth. It's hypocritical of some on this board who seemed to applaud him missing PJax exit interview because he thought the team was a mess, and then doing the same thing with his replacement. The truth of the matter is he was right both times. and if anything he showed improved discretion by being less public about it this time (i.e., no bike rides on day of interview)
4) All signs point to an insecure FO who didn't have answers to his complaints and panicked that he would leave the team. If they had the courage of their convictions, they could have showed KP the team was turning around through their superior drafting and player development before he had time to move.
5) Now 90% of the board is completely delusional thinking that somehow pairing a 30 year old KD with a 19 yr old KK, 20 yr old Frank is going to work. That is what has plagued us for years. We at least had a plan of players hitting their prime together. Now we'll be capped out with 2 superstars and a bunch of young-uns and the superstars will grow old too quickly
6) In contrast, look at dallas who now has Barnes 26, KP 23, Luka 19 going on 20. Much better picture (and one we were trying to accomplish)
7) regarding draft picks -- recall the John Wallace year where we had 3 later first rounders? Right, I didn't think so. they will be roster-filler not KPs

I understand that denial is an initial stage of gried, but c'mon man any objective analysis shows our FO is incompetent

What has KP done to earn the butt-kissing you're advocating. Remember, it's not that he was on the fence or non-committal. His camp said they didn't want to be here. What were the Knicks suppose to do, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they didn't hear anything? KP apparently wasn't on board with the plan the Knicks laid out to him. Were they suppose to scrape their plan just to appease KP? Again, maybe you do this for Lebron, not for KP.

Agreed. I was a major advocate of KP but it’s not like he has set the NBA on fire yet. He tends to have great spurts then gets injured or tired which effects his play. Obviously the potential is there but it’s not like he has done what the Greek Freak,Anthony Davis, or Towns has done

cut it with the injury baloney. Embid plays half a season and everyone wants him. Lebron is good for 60 games. Steph Curry anyone? It comes with the territory. He will end up with a bona fide coach and system who will put him in positions to abuse smaller defenders down low, and longer defenders at the perimeter. He will be a monster, and deep down you know it. He's going to a team where Luka and Harrion and Brunson will share the ball (in fact they shipped us their ball hog) On top of that he's smart. His only fault is he spoke the truth. (And yes Janis is an ahole, no doubt)

It’s not baloney it’s the truth. His frame especially makes injuries more likely and we saw it from his time here. Plus he has said he will sign a QO so he will test free agency. So **** him and Janis

I was willing to overlook those flaws because when he is available he is a baller. But he really hasn't been available. And as he gets older he is only gonna take more of a pounding. Look at guys like Yao or Ilgauskas, even someone like Brook Lopez. When things like feet and tendons start to go things go south in a hurry. KP's greatest basketball asset is his length and his biggest weakness from a physical perspective is his length. The other thing is he only really had one good year. THat year started out great and turned worse and worse and the season progressed.

What about KD or Dirk? Better comparisons. He could and would develop core strength

Not buying it

what major injuries have KD or Dirk had?

That’s my point! They have similar body types

There’s no reason to assume KP is forever injury prone. And even if he were it’s the cost of doing business. Everyone is clamoring for Kyrie who is injured all of the time

Chandler wrote:That

SupremeCommander wrote:

Chandler wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Chandler wrote:I apparently am in the minority and think this is an awful trade and another sign of FO incompetence of the highest order

1) people talk about fragile KP -- See Joel Embid, Lebron and a host of others who routinely miss extended periods due to wear and tear.
2) He is a young all star with more probability of being a 2-way superstar than anyone we have had in a generation
3) his biggest sin has been in telling the truth. It's hypocritical of some on this board who seemed to applaud him missing PJax exit interview because he thought the team was a mess, and then doing the same thing with his replacement. The truth of the matter is he was right both times. and if anything he showed improved discretion by being less public about it this time (i.e., no bike rides on day of interview)
4) All signs point to an insecure FO who didn't have answers to his complaints and panicked that he would leave the team. If they had the courage of their convictions, they could have showed KP the team was turning around through their superior drafting and player development before he had time to move.
5) Now 90% of the board is completely delusional thinking that somehow pairing a 30 year old KD with a 19 yr old KK, 20 yr old Frank is going to work. That is what has plagued us for years. We at least had a plan of players hitting their prime together. Now we'll be capped out with 2 superstars and a bunch of young-uns and the superstars will grow old too quickly
6) In contrast, look at dallas who now has Barnes 26, KP 23, Luka 19 going on 20. Much better picture (and one we were trying to accomplish)
7) regarding draft picks -- recall the John Wallace year where we had 3 later first rounders? Right, I didn't think so. they will be roster-filler not KPs

I understand that denial is an initial stage of gried, but c'mon man any objective analysis shows our FO is incompetent

What has KP done to earn the butt-kissing you're advocating. Remember, it's not that he was on the fence or non-committal. His camp said they didn't want to be here. What were the Knicks suppose to do, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they didn't hear anything? KP apparently wasn't on board with the plan the Knicks laid out to him. Were they suppose to scrape their plan just to appease KP? Again, maybe you do this for Lebron, not for KP.

Agreed. I was a major advocate of KP but it’s not like he has set the NBA on fire yet. He tends to have great spurts then gets injured or tired which effects his play. Obviously the potential is there but it’s not like he has done what the Greek Freak,Anthony Davis, or Towns has done

cut it with the injury baloney. Embid plays half a season and everyone wants him. Lebron is good for 60 games. Steph Curry anyone? It comes with the territory. He will end up with a bona fide coach and system who will put him in positions to abuse smaller defenders down low, and longer defenders at the perimeter. He will be a monster, and deep down you know it. He's going to a team where Luka and Harrion and Brunson will share the ball (in fact they shipped us their ball hog) On top of that he's smart. His only fault is he spoke the truth. (And yes Janis is an ahole, no doubt)

It’s not baloney it’s the truth. His frame especially makes injuries more likely and we saw it from his time here. Plus he has said he will sign a QO so he will test free agency. So **** him and Janis

I was willing to overlook those flaws because when he is available he is a baller. But he really hasn't been available. And as he gets older he is only gonna take more of a pounding. Look at guys like Yao or Ilgauskas, even someone like Brook Lopez. When things like feet and tendons start to go things go south in a hurry. KP's greatest basketball asset is his length and his biggest weakness from a physical perspective is his length. The other thing is he only really had one good year. THat year started out great and turned worse and worse and the season progressed.

What about KD or Dirk? Better comparisons. He could and would develop core strength

Not buying it

what major injuries have KD or Dirk had?

That’s my point! They have similar body types

There’s no reason to assume KP is forever injury prone. And even if he were it’s the cost of doing business. Everyone is clamoring for Kyrie who is injured all of the time

Chandler wrote:That

SupremeCommander wrote:

Chandler wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Chandler wrote:I apparently am in the minority and think this is an awful trade and another sign of FO incompetence of the highest order

1) people talk about fragile KP -- See Joel Embid, Lebron and a host of others who routinely miss extended periods due to wear and tear.
2) He is a young all star with more probability of being a 2-way superstar than anyone we have had in a generation
3) his biggest sin has been in telling the truth. It's hypocritical of some on this board who seemed to applaud him missing PJax exit interview because he thought the team was a mess, and then doing the same thing with his replacement. The truth of the matter is he was right both times. and if anything he showed improved discretion by being less public about it this time (i.e., no bike rides on day of interview)
4) All signs point to an insecure FO who didn't have answers to his complaints and panicked that he would leave the team. If they had the courage of their convictions, they could have showed KP the team was turning around through their superior drafting and player development before he had time to move.
5) Now 90% of the board is completely delusional thinking that somehow pairing a 30 year old KD with a 19 yr old KK, 20 yr old Frank is going to work. That is what has plagued us for years. We at least had a plan of players hitting their prime together. Now we'll be capped out with 2 superstars and a bunch of young-uns and the superstars will grow old too quickly
6) In contrast, look at dallas who now has Barnes 26, KP 23, Luka 19 going on 20. Much better picture (and one we were trying to accomplish)
7) regarding draft picks -- recall the John Wallace year where we had 3 later first rounders? Right, I didn't think so. they will be roster-filler not KPs

I understand that denial is an initial stage of gried, but c'mon man any objective analysis shows our FO is incompetent

What has KP done to earn the butt-kissing you're advocating. Remember, it's not that he was on the fence or non-committal. His camp said they didn't want to be here. What were the Knicks suppose to do, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they didn't hear anything? KP apparently wasn't on board with the plan the Knicks laid out to him. Were they suppose to scrape their plan just to appease KP? Again, maybe you do this for Lebron, not for KP.

Agreed. I was a major advocate of KP but it’s not like he has set the NBA on fire yet. He tends to have great spurts then gets injured or tired which effects his play. Obviously the potential is there but it’s not like he has done what the Greek Freak,Anthony Davis, or Towns has done

cut it with the injury baloney. Embid plays half a season and everyone wants him. Lebron is good for 60 games. Steph Curry anyone? It comes with the territory. He will end up with a bona fide coach and system who will put him in positions to abuse smaller defenders down low, and longer defenders at the perimeter. He will be a monster, and deep down you know it. He's going to a team where Luka and Harrion and Brunson will share the ball (in fact they shipped us their ball hog) On top of that he's smart. His only fault is he spoke the truth. (And yes Janis is an ahole, no doubt)

It’s not baloney it’s the truth. His frame especially makes injuries more likely and we saw it from his time here. Plus he has said he will sign a QO so he will test free agency. So **** him and Janis

I was willing to overlook those flaws because when he is available he is a baller. But he really hasn't been available. And as he gets older he is only gonna take more of a pounding. Look at guys like Yao or Ilgauskas, even someone like Brook Lopez. When things like feet and tendons start to go things go south in a hurry. KP's greatest basketball asset is his length and his biggest weakness from a physical perspective is his length. The other thing is he only really had one good year. THat year started out great and turned worse and worse and the season progressed.

What about KD or Dirk? Better comparisons. He could and would develop core strength

Not buying it

what major injuries have KD or Dirk had?

That’s my point! They have similar body types

There’s no reason to assume KP is forever injury prone. And even if he were it’s the cost of doing business. Everyone is clamoring for Kyrie who is injured all of the time

Dirk is/was not athletic really. His game is not based on athleticism. So that's not a good comparison. KD is much lighter than KP so there is less strain on the lover body and KD needs less core strength, KD is a 3/4. KP is a 4/5.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/1091367394474422272

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/1091366311534493697

Wouldn't be surprised if the Celtics trade him at the deadline, maybe to the Lakers if they fail to land AD

Mitch,kornet
Zion, vonleh
Durant,Knox
Trier, frank,Dotson
Kyrie, DSJR

That team wins the east and is a championship contender.

I think people have under estimated fiz, he is loved by a lot of superstars around the league.

Now what we need is for doncic to go out with a season ending injury and they lose every game and we land two top 5 picks !

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:I apparently am in the minority and think this is an awful trade and another sign of FO incompetence of the highest order

1) people talk about fragile KP -- See Joel Embid, Lebron and a host of others who routinely miss extended periods due to wear and tear.
2) He is a young all star with more probability of being a 2-way superstar than anyone we have had in a generation
3) his biggest sin has been in telling the truth. It's hypocritical of some on this board who seemed to applaud him missing PJax exit interview because he thought the team was a mess, and then doing the same thing with his replacement. The truth of the matter is he was right both times. and if anything he showed improved discretion by being less public about it this time (i.e., no bike rides on day of interview)
4) All signs point to an insecure FO who didn't have answers to his complaints and panicked that he would leave the team. If they had the courage of their convictions, they could have showed KP the team was turning around through their superior drafting and player development before he had time to move.
5) Now 90% of the board is completely delusional thinking that somehow pairing a 30 year old KD with a 19 yr old KK, 20 yr old Frank is going to work. That is what has plagued us for years. We at least had a plan of players hitting their prime together. Now we'll be capped out with 2 superstars and a bunch of young-uns and the superstars will grow old too quickly
6) In contrast, look at dallas who now has Barnes 26, KP 23, Luka 19 going on 20. Much better picture (and one we were trying to accomplish)
7) regarding draft picks -- recall the John Wallace year where we had 3 later first rounders? Right, I didn't think so. they will be roster-filler not KPs

I understand that denial is an initial stage of gried, but c'mon man any objective analysis shows our FO is incompetent

I stopped reading right there. When did LeBron routinely miss extended periods of time?

fair enough. perhaps a stretch w LeBron but for the record last year was his first in his whole career where he didn't miss a game

Kyrie routinely hurt and we're begging for him. point is it comes with the territory

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1091385239950278657

Surprised he still wants to come here, shame they didn't want KP

Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:I apparently am in the minority and think this is an awful trade and another sign of FO incompetence of the highest order

1) people talk about fragile KP -- See Joel Embid, Lebron and a host of others who routinely miss extended periods due to wear and tear.
2) He is a young all star with more probability of being a 2-way superstar than anyone we have had in a generation
3) his biggest sin has been in telling the truth. It's hypocritical of some on this board who seemed to applaud him missing PJax exit interview because he thought the team was a mess, and then doing the same thing with his replacement. The truth of the matter is he was right both times. and if anything he showed improved discretion by being less public about it this time (i.e., no bike rides on day of interview)
4) All signs point to an insecure FO who didn't have answers to his complaints and panicked that he would leave the team. If they had the courage of their convictions, they could have showed KP the team was turning around through their superior drafting and player development before he had time to move.
5) Now 90% of the board is completely delusional thinking that somehow pairing a 30 year old KD with a 19 yr old KK, 20 yr old Frank is going to work. That is what has plagued us for years. We at least had a plan of players hitting their prime together. Now we'll be capped out with 2 superstars and a bunch of young-uns and the superstars will grow old too quickly
6) In contrast, look at dallas who now has Barnes 26, KP 23, Luka 19 going on 20. Much better picture (and one we were trying to accomplish)
7) regarding draft picks -- recall the John Wallace year where we had 3 later first rounders? Right, I didn't think so. they will be roster-filler not KPs

I understand that denial is an initial stage of gried, but c'mon man any objective analysis shows our FO is incompetent

I stopped reading right there. When did LeBron routinely miss extended periods of time?

fair enough. perhaps a stretch w LeBron but for the record last year was his first in his whole career where he didn't miss a game

Kyrie routinely hurt and we're begging for him. point is it comes with the territory

I also think it is fair assessment of FO being insecure.
We had very secure FO before under Isiah and Phil.
We have impotent with Leiden and Walsh...
Now we have very insecure under Perry.
Is is good or bad long term is to be seen.
One thing for sure - this FO will not do anything fast.
This will be very slow grind.
People who think that the plan is to bring 2 max FA this year are mistaken.
Of course if this caliber of players will come they will be signed.
But if not this will be business as usual.
One thing about this FO is already proven - they are sticking to the plan no matter what.
To me this is a very good sign.

Chandler wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Chandler wrote:That

SupremeCommander wrote:

Chandler wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Chandler wrote:I apparently am in the minority and think this is an awful trade and another sign of FO incompetence of the highest order

1) people talk about fragile KP -- See Joel Embid, Lebron and a host of others who routinely miss extended periods due to wear and tear.
2) He is a young all star with more probability of being a 2-way superstar than anyone we have had in a generation
3) his biggest sin has been in telling the truth. It's hypocritical of some on this board who seemed to applaud him missing PJax exit interview because he thought the team was a mess, and then doing the same thing with his replacement. The truth of the matter is he was right both times. and if anything he showed improved discretion by being less public about it this time (i.e., no bike rides on day of interview)
4) All signs point to an insecure FO who didn't have answers to his complaints and panicked that he would leave the team. If they had the courage of their convictions, they could have showed KP the team was turning around through their superior drafting and player development before he had time to move.
5) Now 90% of the board is completely delusional thinking that somehow pairing a 30 year old KD with a 19 yr old KK, 20 yr old Frank is going to work. That is what has plagued us for years. We at least had a plan of players hitting their prime together. Now we'll be capped out with 2 superstars and a bunch of young-uns and the superstars will grow old too quickly
6) In contrast, look at dallas who now has Barnes 26, KP 23, Luka 19 going on 20. Much better picture (and one we were trying to accomplish)
7) regarding draft picks -- recall the John Wallace year where we had 3 later first rounders? Right, I didn't think so. they will be roster-filler not KPs

I understand that denial is an initial stage of gried, but c'mon man any objective analysis shows our FO is incompetent

What has KP done to earn the butt-kissing you're advocating. Remember, it's not that he was on the fence or non-committal. His camp said they didn't want to be here. What were the Knicks suppose to do, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they didn't hear anything? KP apparently wasn't on board with the plan the Knicks laid out to him. Were they suppose to scrape their plan just to appease KP? Again, maybe you do this for Lebron, not for KP.

Agreed. I was a major advocate of KP but it’s not like he has set the NBA on fire yet. He tends to have great spurts then gets injured or tired which effects his play. Obviously the potential is there but it’s not like he has done what the Greek Freak,Anthony Davis, or Towns has done

cut it with the injury baloney. Embid plays half a season and everyone wants him. Lebron is good for 60 games. Steph Curry anyone? It comes with the territory. He will end up with a bona fide coach and system who will put him in positions to abuse smaller defenders down low, and longer defenders at the perimeter. He will be a monster, and deep down you know it. He's going to a team where Luka and Harrion and Brunson will share the ball (in fact they shipped us their ball hog) On top of that he's smart. His only fault is he spoke the truth. (And yes Janis is an ahole, no doubt)

It’s not baloney it’s the truth. His frame especially makes injuries more likely and we saw it from his time here. Plus he has said he will sign a QO so he will test free agency. So **** him and Janis

I was willing to overlook those flaws because when he is available he is a baller. But he really hasn't been available. And as he gets older he is only gonna take more of a pounding. Look at guys like Yao or Ilgauskas, even someone like Brook Lopez. When things like feet and tendons start to go things go south in a hurry. KP's greatest basketball asset is his length and his biggest weakness from a physical perspective is his length. The other thing is he only really had one good year. THat year started out great and turned worse and worse and the season progressed.

What about KD or Dirk? Better comparisons. He could and would develop core strength

Not buying it

what major injuries have KD or Dirk had?

That’s my point! They have similar body types

There’s no reason to assume KP is forever injury prone. And even if he were it’s the cost of doing business. Everyone is clamoring for Kyrie who is injured all of the time

i don't agree or disagree with you. All I'm saying is that KP has an injury history, and players with his length that have had injury histories at KP's height have not fared well in the NBA. That's all I'm saying. I'm not critiquing KP's game. I have been very clear that I preferred KP to stay from the get go. But KP's health is DEFINITELY a factor in committing to him long term. You say there is no reason to assume that KP is forever injury prone. Well, I'm not. I'm just saying that it is possible and likely probable. I agree he could get stronger.

But man you come off as naive on this one. You surely cannot assume that KP's health is magically going to rebound, especially when KP doesn't do any team related rehab. He does his rehab at Real Madrid. Maybe this year he'll vacation in Barcelona and do it there. Maybe he'll lay in Amare's wine tub in Tel Aviv. That's my point. i really don't understand what your point is other than hypothetical idealism

Injuries are part of the game. People are clamoring for Kyrie who is routinely out; Embid etc. Am I saying KP was a lock for 82 a year, no. I'm saying comparing him to Yao is misplaced IMO, and that his body type is no different than guys who have awesome careers like Dirk and KD. Carrying lighter weight has advtanges and disadvantages

A smart franchise would find a better way to play to his strengths and for him to develop a sustainable game. Guy is 7'3" with brains and touch on his shot.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TJDhoops/status/1091334979190222849

Expect even more gasoline to keep this fire against KP going for a few more weeks.

FrenchFreak wrote:Like a lot of fans my initial reaction to the trade was negative. After sleeping on it, I now think it was the right thing to do and this is probably the best I have felt about the Knicks organization in a really long time.

Young players with upside and cap space are two of the most important thing in a salary cap league. The bright side:

* We have Smith/Frank/Dotson from 2017 draft
* We have Trier/Knox/Mitch from 2018
* A likely top 5 pick plus a 2nd rounder coming in 2019
* $70M+ of cap space
* All of our future draft picks plus 2 additional 1st rounders from Dallas.
* We're rid of the immovable Lee and Hardaway contracts. It's even better than the Mets trading Swarzak/Bruce in the Cano deal.
* We don't have to go through an uncertain season with KP playing with a QO.
* We don't have to fret at all about whether we want to give a max deal to a 7'3 guy coming off a major knee injury.

The potential is now huge to build a sustainable winning team. The BIG IF is July 1st. As long as they hold out for only the best FAs and don't overpay for the second tier we'll be fine. If we don't get who we want, just fill the roster with 1 year deals and try again next off season. Meanwhile your young players have another year to develop and prove themselves. I'm confident this front office has their heads on straight about this. Maybe I'm naive but looking forward to the off season...

Ahhh, I knew we were going to disagree when I saw the comment about the Cano deal. The Mets got destroyed in that trade. Paying Cano $20 mil a year in his age 38-40 years is a nightmare. The Wilpons hold the Cespedes/Wright contracts over the payroll's head and that's while they're getting a good chunk of that back from insurance. That deal will probably end up costing them deGrom or Thor long-term.

Here's the problem with the young players and cap space logic...the cold, hard reality is that our young players aren't that good. Knox is the only one out of that group that could be and he's got a long way to go. The others could possibly be role players but there's a million guys just like them out there in this league. DSJ hasn't arrived yet, if he ever will, and has already sulked about a much better player being more ball-dominant.

The draft picks were mediocre and with being so far in the future aren't really going to help us out much in a trade anytime soon They hold some value in a different sense but not as the centerpiece for who we gave up.

Getting rid of THJ and Lee's contract were the centerpiece, which it was nice that we did, but that should not be the biggest thing you get back for a guy like Porzingis. It's almost like the Mavs in negotiations basically said "well, think of it like we're getting you Durant or Kyrie too!" and the Knicks said, "derrr, OK!". That could happen with the space, but it shouldn't be part of the direct trade value you're getting from someone.

My issue with this will always be the value. We traded the guy at his absolute lowest value and then somehow got even less back. It was a salary dump and a couple of mediocre at best assets. And then the credit the FO gets for "ridding" ourselves of those terrible contracts...when they're the ones who gave them out! I wish I could have that kind of lack of accountability at my job.