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O.T. War in the middle East...
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firefly
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8/4/2006  8:39 AM
Ehud Olmert's speech, 31st July 2006

Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world.



I, the Prime Minister of Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eye and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon. The Israel Defence Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel. We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will continue to bomb Kfar Kana. Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Here, there and everywhere. The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of our children into hell.



Ladies and gentlemen, it’s time you understood: the Jewish state will no longer be trampled upon. We will no longer allow anyone to exploit population centres in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us, you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

A voice for six million citizens
Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish race off the face of the earth, as Adolph Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims. And you – just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are ignoring them again now.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation that never arrives. Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction – those people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will no longer be able to evade their responsibility. Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us, to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not. Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a permanent settlement between us.

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border, leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its democracy and its economy. What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak’s peace initiative at Camp David let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don’t remember you being so enraged then. Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while celebrating the Passover Seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya? What can you do – that’s the way we are. We don’t wave body parts at the camera. We grieve quietly. We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy’s children – we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous behaviour of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous taste of this terror. And you will taste more.

In a loud and clear voice

Ariel Sharon’s withdrawal from Gaza. What did it get us? A barrage of Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of soldiers. Then too, I don’t recall you reacting with such alarm. And for six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to Jerusalem – and from there to Paris and London. An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes, awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake – we won’t go down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go down along with us. So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don’t recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans – and the world remains silent. And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechnya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed the civilian population – then you also kept silent. What is it about us, the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of justice in you? What do we have that all the others don’t? In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eye, I stand before you openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine. This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to lead normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your battle. I pray and I believe that now you will understand that. Because if you don’t, you may regret it later, when it’s too late.



[Edited by - firefly on 08-04-2006 08:47 AM]
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
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Rich
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8/4/2006  10:07 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060804/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Hundreds of thousands of Shiites chanting "Death to
Israel" and "Death to America" marched through the streets of Baghdad's biggest Shiite district Friday in a massive show of support for Hezbollah in its battle against Israel.

Protesters set fire to American and Israeli flags, as well as effigies of
President George W. Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, showing the men with Dracula teeth. "Saddam and Bush, Two Faces of One Coin" was scrawled on Bush's effigy.

Every U.S. soldier that has been killed in Iraq has died in vain.

Why are we there again?
Nalod
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8/4/2006  10:37 AM
Posted by firefly:

Ehud Olmert's speech, 31st July 2006

Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world.



I, the Prime Minister of Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eye and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon. The Israel Defence Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel. We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will continue to bomb Kfar Kana. Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Here, there and everywhere. The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of our children into hell.



Ladies and gentlemen, it’s time you understood: the Jewish state will no longer be trampled upon. We will no longer allow anyone to exploit population centres in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us, you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

A voice for six million citizens
Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish race off the face of the earth, as Adolph Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims. And you – just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are ignoring them again now.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation that never arrives. Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction – those people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will no longer be able to evade their responsibility. Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us, to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not. Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a permanent settlement between us.

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border, leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its democracy and its economy. What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak’s peace initiative at Camp David let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don’t remember you being so enraged then. Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while celebrating the Passover Seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya? What can you do – that’s the way we are. We don’t wave body parts at the camera. We grieve quietly. We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy’s children – we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous behaviour of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous taste of this terror. And you will taste more.

In a loud and clear voice

Ariel Sharon’s withdrawal from Gaza. What did it get us? A barrage of Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of soldiers. Then too, I don’t recall you reacting with such alarm. And for six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to Jerusalem – and from there to Paris and London. An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes, awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake – we won’t go down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go down along with us. So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don’t recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans – and the world remains silent. And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechnya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed the civilian population – then you also kept silent. What is it about us, the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of justice in you? What do we have that all the others don’t? In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eye, I stand before you openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine. This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to lead normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your battle. I pray and I believe that now you will understand that. Because if you don’t, you may regret it later, when it’s too late.



[Edited by - firefly on 08-04-2006 08:47 AM]

Great speach! This is Israels perspective. I can answer his question as to why they are so singled out is the western countries and those in Europe care more about oil and contracts then Jews. They are afraid of losing oil and business to arab countries.

What Some don't realize is how many of those ****aroaches are in their countries and are aiming to overrun them internally!

Israel are killing the women and children of Hezzbollah! THe men are putting them in harms way! Its their responsabilty to either move the fight away, or move civilians away. Women and Children are property and acceptable causualties to these MuthaPhuchers!

colorfl1
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8/4/2006  5:29 PM
('');This is the most telling contrast... distinguishing between religious Jewish and muslim extreemists...

If Muslim extreemists sounded like these Jewish extreemists then the world's safety would not be in crises...



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=746186

Degel Hatorah leader: Israel must heed world's peace proposals
By Yair Ettinger, Haaretz Correspondent

The leader of the Degel Hatorah political party as well as the ultra-Orthodox Lithuanian community in Israel, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, went against the official position of the government in recent days, and expressed his support of a cease fire between Israel and Lebanon.

Eliashiv said recently "the decision makers must take into account the position of the world nations. They shouldn't ignore or take lightly the ideas raised by other nations. If the United States raises solutions that could bring about the end of the war and save Jewish lives, they should be heeded. No offer or idea should be dismissed offhand. We mustn't anger the nations of the world!"
----------------

>>> If only Hezbollah, Osama and Hama's and their bretheren would maintain comperable tact...
colorfl1
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8/4/2006  5:37 PM
('');


http://www.tnr.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20060814&s=diarist081406

WASHINGTON DIARIST
The Children of Qana
by Leon Wieseltier
Post date: 08.04.06
Issue date: 08.14.06
The killing of children, any children, is an evil. Those who are responsible for the death of children in war are responsible for an evil. To think otherwise is surely a depravity. There can be no absolution for such an act in nationalism or in religion, though both are plentiful with extenuations of the misdeeds of members and believers. In wartime, when arguments are made more to fortify than to instruct, such extenuations abound. Sometimes they are made in good faith, sometimes not. In wartime, intellectual life is generally degraded into apologetics--for our side or their side, for the right side or the wrong side, but apologetics. Nothing more decisively exposes the sterility of such discourse, its fear of the ethical ambiguities in human conflict, its confusion of rightness with innocence, than the destruction of children. It shames realists and it shames idealists--all believe that a war may be analyzed without a moral vocabulary, because it is an affair of power or because it is already just.

But is not the evaluation of a war in terms of its justice a practice of conscience? In the beginning, it is; but the sensation of one's virtue also has a hardening effect. A war must not only start just, it must also stay just. A just war can lose its justice. For this reason, conscience must be as dynamic as the battlefield, and moral assessments as regular and as alert (but not as nimble!) as tactical assessments, or else the invocation of justice is only a device for easing the lives of cynics. Of course, for those who think that all wars are evil, that war is itself the evil, such perplexities do not exist: the killing of children merely confirms what they already know, it is only a smaller crime in a greater crime. But this pristinity cannot account for historical experience, which shows that some wars have been just and some wars unjust, even though all wars have been cruel. Not every war is like World War I, even if every war seems the same, and senseless, when it is considered from the standpoint of tragedy. But there is tragedy even, or especially, in moral situations. All good wars are also bad wars.

The question of the killing of children in a just war is not the same as the question of the killing of children in an unjust war. It is easy to arrive at moral clarity about the evil done in a wrong cause. A wrong war must be opposed even when no such outrages occur, even when it is conducted with humanitarian diligence. But a right war in which such outrages occur--surely it is not enough to refresh one's sense of the admirable nature of one's principles and be done. The fact that you are not a monster is beside the point when you have just done something monstrous. One should not be consoled for one's misdeeds, one should regret them; and regret is genuine only when it is beyond the reach of consolation. If your guilt reminds you of how otherwise guiltless you are, then you have not been improved by the discovery of your sin, you have been corrupted by it. It is important also to be wary of the pride of self-criticism. At least we worry about such things: this proves only that the standard is low. To congratulate oneself upon the severity of one's self-reckoning is to vitiate it--to nullify conscience by reference to its very exercise.

I am thinking of the children who were killed by an Israeli airstrike in Qana. Since I support the Israeli war against Hezbollah, I have a duty to admit that I support a war in which such catastrophes happen. This is difficult; but the brutal truth is that it is not impossible. This hurts my brain. For Qana is not all I need to know about the war. Conscience is not the enemy of intelligence, and there is more about this conflict, about any conflict, that is pertinent to moral analysis. The exterminationist objective of Israel's adversary and of its adversary's patron, the rain of rockets launched precisely to kill non-combatants, the deployment of its arsenal in the thick of its own population: these, too, are facts of moral significance. For Hezbollah, the murder of innocents, in Israel and in Lebanon, is its strategy. And so I am not embarrassed by Israeli power, or by its use against this particular enemy. I notice also that some people who denounce the loss of life on the Lebanese side of the border are reticent about the loss of life on the Israeli side of the border. Perhaps more Israeli deaths would restore a perverse kind of moral parity, and correct their asymmetrical hearts.

Anyway, it appears that in our humanitarianism we are all hypocrites. We all have our more acceptable and less acceptable victims. (I recall from a decade ago that people who spoke loudly against the killing of children by Serbian snipers in Sarajevo spoke softly or not at all against the killing of children by Nato planes in Belgrade.) This is ugly, but in a cold way it makes sense, if you agree that there are things worth dying for and killing for. I am not doing either the killing or the dying, obviously; but none of us are. I do not see that we are therefore disqualified from our causes. We are, for one reason or another, insulated from the consequences of most of our opinions. But the certification of the justice or injustice of a war is not a professional activity. There are no experts in the calculation of the relations of means and ends, of costs and purposes. The "proportionality" that is supposed to settle these matters is not a scientific measure. It remains for us to reason, even about horrors.

I do not see that one can fairly oppose the Israeli campaign against Hezbollah without asking a state to acquiesce in a mortal danger to itself, and a region to acquiesce in the ascendancy of jihadism. The weakening of Hezbollah would amount to the strengthening of Israel, the strengthening of Lebanon, and the weakening of Iran. This seems like a fine strategic result and a fine moral result. It might even permit us to talk again of peace. (Remember peace?) I do not wish to defend every one of Israel's strikes, some of which worsen the situation that they are designed to improve; and I understand that six hundred civilian deaths are six hundred too many. These are not tender times. I am not trying to talk myself into accepting the deaths of the children of Qana. I am trying to talk myself into not accepting them, whatever that means. But it isn't working. I see no escape from the distinction between moralism and morality. Moralism is a denial of the actual conditions of moral and historical action. It is a way of protecting morality from the knowledge of the world. Whether or not this sounds complacent, I believe it.

Leon Wieseltier is the literary editor of The New Republic.
simrud
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8/4/2006  7:19 PM
Finally somebody made the speech that should have been made a long time ago.

Let me also add to it:

IF IRAN OR ANY OTHER MUSLIM COUNRY EVER MUSTERS THE FORCE NEEDED TO WIPE OUT THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ITS SIX MILLION JEWS, THE LAST ACT OF MY PEOPLE WILL BE THE DESTRUCTION OF EVERY MUSLIM COUNTRY WITHIN REACH OF OUR NUCLEAR ARSENAL. THERMONUCLEAR HELL WILL BE OUR FINAL CRY!
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Killa4luv
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8/5/2006  12:38 AM
Posted by firefly:

How can you not see this stuff Killa? Cmon man, you have to admit its a little strange how these militants always seem to be surrounded by women and children.

While we're on the subject, whats your opinion on what Hezbollah is doing re. shooting rockets into Israel, targeting innocent civilians. I believe we are yet to hear your views on that.
1st I do not find it strange that when Israeli planes blow up residential buildings, women and children are found dead inside. Seems incredibly normal to me. Whats telling is that you seem to accept uncritically that Israel is actually striking militants with these air strikes.


I am anti attacks on working class people who are non-combatants. i think if you are part of a movement, you win popular suport for your ideas through working with the working class. I don't believe in suicide bombings or indiscriminate firing of rockets or missles into a civlian area. Likewise, I also don't believe in the bombing of civilian infrastructure, water, electricity, etc. It is a fact that it kills weak civilians, and it lasts a long time, you cannot just throw up another power plant or water purification system in a second. These are proven facts. I am against that as well and view that as collective punishment, that is morally on par with terrorism, and far worse in terms of its overall effect. I don't believe in blowing up city blocks because you say you saw a Hezbolla there.

HRW has released a report that trashes the tactics both sides use, especially the "they're hiding behind civilians" mantra that helps you guys feel better about what Israel is doing: http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/2.htm#_Toc142299220its a bit long. But here is an article written by the head of HRW that refutes pretty much every argument you guys have made in this entire thread. But you'll call him an anti-semite Nazi propagandist too.

Fog of War Is No Cover for Causing Civilian Deaths
By Kenneth Roth
August 4, 2006

The awful bloodshed and intense emotions of war are not conducive to careful moral reasoning. With Hezbollah rockets raining down on northern Israel, an honest reckoning of the conduct of Israeli forces in Lebanon is difficult.

Facile arguments and serious misconceptions, like those listed below, are too easily accepted. But given the stakes, it is especially important to cut through these misunderstandings. Here's one attempt to do so.

"The Israeli military exercises great care to avoid harming Lebanese civilians."

Not always. Human Rights Watch investigators in Lebanon have recorded an appalling number of incidents in which civilians and civilian objects were hit with no apparent military justification: 12 civilians, including nine children, killed in Dweir; at least 16 civilians, including nine children, killed while fleeing Marwahin; nine civilians, including four children, killed in Beflay; as many as 42 civilians, including many children, killed in Srifa; some 60% of nine square blocks of southern Beirut, composed mostly of eight- to 10-story apartment buildings, destroyed; and now the tragedy of civilians, many of them children, killed at Qana.

The list goes on. With hundreds of Lebanese civilians killed in three weeks of bombing, Israel clearly isn't doing enough to avoid such loss of life.

"But Israel should be given more latitude because it's responding to an abusive and aggressive force like Hezbollah which wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth."

Wrong. Human Rights Watch has condemned Hezbollah for firing both indiscriminately and intentionally at Israeli civilians, calling these serious breaches of international humanitarian law and war crimes. But that doesn't change the rules governing Israel. Nor does the question of who started the conflict, or how nefarious an opponent's intentions are.

The obligations to respect international humanitarian law, including to refrain from deliberate or indiscriminate attacks on civilians and to take all feasible precautions against civilian casualties, persist regardless of the conduct of one's opponent. Grave breaches remain war crimes. Otherwise, it would take just one side's charge of abuse, one side's claim to have been the victim of aggression, to return to the era of total war in which all civilians are fair game.

"The Israeli military issued repeated warnings asking Lebanese civilians to evacuate. If any Lebanese are still around, they must be Hezbollah combatants."

No. To begin with, many Lebanese civilians who want to leave, can't. They might be old or infirm, unable to afford exorbitant taxi fares, or terrified at the prospect of becoming one of the many roadside victims of Israeli military attacks.

In any event, while international humanitarian law strongly encourages warnings — and Israel should be commended for issuing them — the failure to heed one does not create a free-fire zone. If it did, Palestinian militant groups might "warn" all settlers to leave Israeli settlements and then be justified in treating as legitimate targets those who remained.

"Hezbollah should bear responsibility for civilian deaths because it mixes its fighters and arms with the civilian population."

Not so quick. International humanitarian law does prohibit the deliberate use of civilians to shield fighters and military assets, and it requires all parties to do everything feasible to station their forces away from civilians. Clearly Hezbollah sometimes is violating these prohibitions, but despite the Israeli military's claims, that doesn't begin to account for the high Lebanese death toll. In many cases, Lebanese civilians who have survived air strikes on their homes or vehicles have told Human Rights Watch that Hezbollah was nowhere nearby when the attack took place.

In any event, even the use of civilian structures alone isn't enough to justify an attack. They become legitimate military targets only if Hezbollah troops or arms are present at the time, and the military value of their destruction outweighs the civilian cost. Human Rights Watch's research shows that repeatedly that wasn't the case.

"But Lebanese civilians deserve what they get because their government tolerated the Hezbollah militia in its midst."

Hardly. Leaving aside the question of whether the Lebanese government had the capacity to rein in Hezbollah, a government's misdeeds never justify attacks on its people. Otherwise, Israeli civilians might become legitimate objects of military attack for what many in the region view as their government's repressive occupation.

"Even if it's wrong to deliberately target Lebanese civilians, the Israeli military can certainly squeeze them by targeting their infrastructure."

No, it can't. International humanitarian law permits attacks on infrastructure only if it is making an effective military contribution, and the military benefits of its destruction outweigh the civilian costs. That case is difficult, if not impossible, to make for the extensive attacks on electrical facilities, bridges and roadways throughout the country.

"Why do these rules matter? No one enforces them anyway."

Don't be so sure. Anyone ordering or committing war crimes should be prosecuted in Israeli courts. If they aren't, they could be pursued by any national court exercising universal jurisdiction or, upon Lebanon's invitation, by the International Criminal Court. The same goes for Hezbollah's war crimes.

Moreover, enforcement aside, the many civilian victims of Israeli bombing have been a political boon to Hezbollah, cementing loyalty among its followers. Is Israel really better off fighting the war with such reckless disregard for the fate of civilians?

Kenneth Roth is executive director of Human Rights Watch.
Killa4luv
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8/5/2006  1:31 AM


Israel's real motive is expanding its borders, accoding to this article. And it certainly makes sense.

It's about annexation, stupid!
By Kaveh L Afrasiabi

Officially, Israel's ground invasion of Lebanon is an act of self-defense against Hezbollah's threat, aimed at creating a security buffer zone until the arrival of a "multinational force with an enforcement capability". But increasingly, as the initial goal of a narrow strip of only a few kilometers has now been extended up to the Litani River deep in Lebanon, the real motives behind Israel's invasion are becoming crystal-clear.

It's about (de facto) annexation, stupid. This is a war to annex a major chunk of Lebanese territory without necessarily saying so, under the pretext of security buffer and deterrence against future attacks on Israel.

Already, since the Six Day War, Israel has annexed the Sheba Farms, considered part of the Syrian Golan Heights, although the

Click Here


government of Lebanon has long complained that the 25-square-kilometer area was a part of Lebanon. Now the Israeli army is sweeping the area south of the Litani River as a temporary occupation.

"We have no intention of extending our operation more than 70 kilometers north of our borders with Lebanon," stated Lieutenant-Colonel Hemi Lini on the Lebanese border on July 17, one week after the war's outbreak.

This would put Israel, assuming for a moment that the Israel Defense Forces' operations prove ultimately successful, in control of the Litani River, thus fulfilling Israel's founding fathers' dream, stretching back to Chaim Weizmann, head of the World Zionist Organization, who in 1919 declared the river "essential to the future of the Jewish national home".

Consequently, contrary to the pro-Israel pundits' reassurances that this war is not about occupation, all the tangible signs indicate the exact opposite, ie, the distinct possibility of a "war of acreage" whereby Israel would expand its territory, acquire a new strategic depth, and simultaneously address its chronic water shortage by exploiting the Litani.

Access to the Litani would translate into an annual increase of water supply by 800 million cubic meters. This in turn might allow Israel to bargain with Syria over the Golan Heights, source of a full one-third of Israel's fresh water. However, a more likely scenario is Israel's continued unwillingness to abide by United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338 calling for its withdrawal from the Syrian territories.

The entire Western media have settled on a naive perspective of the reasons for Israel's invasion of Lebanon, namely as a defensive measure against Hezbollah. Conspicuously absent is any serious consideration of a viable, alternative explanation while focusing on, in essence, the same ingredients as in the 1982 invasion: "deceit and misleading statements" by leaders, "inaccurate announcements" by the military spokesmen, and "gross exaggeration" of threats, to paraphrase a candid reflection of an Israeli general, Yehoshafat Harkabi.

Following this scenario, Israel has dropped leaflets throughout southern Lebanon warning the civilians to leave or risk their lives, as they would be considered "Hezbollah sympathizers" if they refused to leave. Reminiscent of Israel's annexation of Palestinian lands in 1948 and beyond, the present war is causing mass refugees, who in all likelihood will not return to their homes any time soon.

The geostrategic and water dimensions of Israel's quest to possess southern Lebanon notwithstanding, the question is, of course, whether or not the world community will tolerate such a development that would remake the map of the Middle East.

There are plenty of reasons to think that in light of the United States' complicit silence on Israel's violation of the territorial integrity of Lebanon, Israel will somehow manage to ride out the international criticisms and stick to its undeclared plan to annex southern Lebanon. However, what is less certain is that the combined efforts of Hezbollah and the rest of Lebanese society, not to mention other Arab contributions, will prevail over Israel's appetite for a decent part of Lebanon.

With the military balance disproportionately in Israel's favor, we can safely assume that the new Operation Litani will succeed and thus create a "new Middle East" with a "greater" and geographically expanded Israel and a shrunken or diminished Lebanon.

If so, then the chronology of events narrated by future historians will closely follow this line of thought: that Israel deliberately provoked Hezbollah into action, after a six-year hiatus, by pressuring Hezbollah's ally, Hamas, which was subjected to a campaign of terror, financial squeeze and intimidation.

The laying of such a trap by Israel would not have happened in a vacuum of strategic thinking on Israel's part. The fact that Hezbollah fell into the trap is a result of several factors, including an adventurist element lending itself to the "reckless" action of Hezbollah on July 11 with respect to crossing the Blue Line and attacking an Israeli patrol.

Since then, the Israelis have put on the mask of being reluctant warriors, delaying their troops' entry into south Lebanon and thus perpetuating Israel's self-image as disinterested in any imperial grand objectives. Yet the facts on the ground speak louder than words and, indeed, what fact is more important than Israeli leaders' announced intention to occupy up to the Litani River?

Again, what is understandably omitted in those announcements, adopted as the real reasons by CNN and other US networks, is Israel's predatory lust after Litani's water sources, as well as for new geographical and strategic depth. This in turn might explain the otherwise inexplicably blatant overreaction of Israel to a border incident with Hezbollah.

Instead of searching for answers in the Israeli collective psyche or in the context of action, we must probe the answer in the writings of Israel's founding fathers, including Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion, commonly yearning for Israel's control of the Litani River. As a timely addition to their old wish, Israel today has a security-related explanation, justifying the territorial takeover in the near future in terms of the lessons of the present war, the main lesson being Israel's dire need to gain strategic depth to avoid rocket attacks.

Indeed, the verdict will soon be out in Israel about the precious lesson of Lebanon War II, that is, how to prevent future rocket attacks in the only feasible way, that is, direct control of southern Lebanon.
Silverfuel
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8/5/2006  8:23 AM
simrud: Check out the interview some dude posted on this link. I know this Rabbi is in the minority but wtf is he thinking? I hate people that completely disregard history and speak out of their ass. http://www.freespeechwar.com/smf/index.php?topic=2825.0
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
rojasmas
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8/5/2006  10:33 AM
Could it be Israel needs water in the desert like the USA desperately needs oil? I hope Israel didn't act disproportionately simply to use the kidnappings as an excuse to gain control of the Litani River.
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Rich
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8/5/2006  10:35 AM
How are they going to control the Latani River? They aren't going to be permitted to occupy Lebanon. It's just bs propaganda.
Rich
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8/5/2006  10:39 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060805/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_un;_ylt=ArQLdznqa0lrYEuLP6QuZQes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

U.S., France OK U.N. Mideast truce pact
simrud
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8/5/2006  11:21 AM
The Hassidim are not any freinds of mine. I hate them almost as much as I hate the Muslims fundamentalists. They are a dirty, fanatitcal sect, with dirty tactics. They target Jewish kids in foreign countries to spread their propoganda. They set up "free" summer camps, where they try to brainwash you into beleiving their crap. They do not represent anybody but their own sect, a dirty, backwards, twofaced fundamentalist disgrace.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
simrud
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8/5/2006  11:27 AM
Killa you are going from bad to worse. Israel has never established one settlemnt in Lebanon during years of occupation. Israel has given up a lot of land over the past years to appease the voice of world anti-semitimsm. Fact is they don't need anymore than they have. The population has been stable in the somewhere between 6 and 7 million mark for years now.


You are clutching at straws, you dirty anti-semitic bastard.

The NGOs you keep citing as "sources" are nothing but privetley funded propoganda organizatins. They are already outlawed in Russia, which recognized for what they are.

When your old lies get destoryed you come up with new ones, much like the Dreyfus court hearings back in france many years ago. The only thing that keep establishing further and further, that much like the majoirty of the French, you hate Jews.

Its good to know who your enemies are, I thank you for remdinding me how many stand against my people in this world.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
simrud
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8/5/2006  11:34 AM
And btw, I can only wish that land grabbing article was true. If only my people were that ruthless and good at genoicide and conquest as you give us credit for. Israel would be ruling over the entire middle already.

The funny thing about anti-semitic nazi bastards like Killa, that if everythign they say about Jews was true, we should be ruling the entire world as our personal empire by now. Yet somehow we are the ones being prosecuted everywhere.

But hey, Israel will control half of Lebanon, Jews have all the money, we own the media, we own Russia, we eat Christain babies, we killed a god, we lost Germans WWI, and the list goes on.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Silverfuel
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8/5/2006  12:39 PM
simrud man, take it easy.
Posted by simrud:

And btw, I can only wish that land grabbing article was true. If only my people were that ruthless and good at genoicide and conquest as you give us credit for. Israel would be ruling over the entire middle already.
Its not even funny how TRUE this is. I've heard the "extending boundries" theory before. Its crap and its been proven to be crap from the very begining. Not only do they have no ambitions of dominating the region, Israel keeps returning any land it captures in retaliation. They had every single Arab nation defeated in the six day war. They had all surrendered! It would've been easy to invade them as was customary after a surrender in that region. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago and recently withdrew from Gaza. So what happens? Hezbollah from Lebanon and Hamas from Gaza kidnap soldiers!! So they retaliate. I dont see any ambition here.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Killa4luv
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8/5/2006  1:01 PM
Posted by simrud:

Killa you are going from bad to worse. Israel has never established one settlemnt in Lebanon during years of occupation. Israel has given up a lot of land over the past years to appease the voice of world anti-semitimsm. Fact is they don't need anymore than they have. The population has been stable in the somewhere between 6 and 7 million mark for years now.


You are clutching at straws, you dirty anti-semitic bastard.

The NGOs you keep citing as "sources" are nothing but privetley funded propoganda organizatins. They are already outlawed in Russia, which recognized for what they are.

When your old lies get destoryed you come up with new ones, much like the Dreyfus court hearings back in france many years ago. The only thing that keep establishing further and further, that much like the majoirty of the French, you hate Jews.

Its good to know who your enemies are, I thank you for remdinding me how many stand against my people in this world.

Just as an FYI, I never proclaimed that the article on expansionism was true or that I believed it, only that it makes sense and I found it interesting.
Killa4luv
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8/5/2006  1:02 PM
Awfully funny how everyone glossed over the whole Human Rights report.

simrud
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8/5/2006  1:39 PM
So you just posted it to make Israel look bad, good to see you are finally admiting to your purpose here.

Btw, I did respond to you citing the HR report. They have no credibility whatsoever. Their arguments, and yes I read the article, don't make any sense. They make an assumption in the beginning of every one of their points, and run from there. The whole report is a sickening propagandist assortment of lies and halftruths that would make any Nazi theorist proud.

There is a reason these NGOs are not even allowed in a country such as Russia. They are already being recognized for what they are, a loudspeaker for hidden agendas of their biggest funders.

[Edited by - simrud on 08-05-2006 1:40 PM]
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Silverfuel
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8/5/2006  2:01 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Awfully funny how everyone glossed over the whole Human Rights report.
The report says exactly what every other anti-war group says. Its basically saying both sides are harming civilians. Gloss over? Also, they have absolutely no credibility and they only say what brings publicity. Who wants to waste their time addressing them?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
O.T. War in the middle East...

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