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Game Thread: Knicks vs Knuggs. Wilson vs. JR, Melo vs. gallo, Moz vs. Sheed..........
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FoeDiddy
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12/10/2012  2:14 PM
3G4G wrote:
FoeDiddy wrote:
3G4G wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

nah, I understand the process, I enjoy watching those teams, they will be fine... you see this is not that deep for me.. the knicks have to win NOW, those teams don't...... you still a fan...

So says you. The Knicks have not won their division, a playoff series or the conference in how long?!?!? There is a lot of room for improvement and success this season without winning it all. The must win now mantra is simply a pathetic attempt on your part to reserve the right to claim this season is a failure. I see what you are doing, troll!

if the knicks don't win this year, where do you expect this team to go in a confrence that is young and improving and the knicks having 3 guys crossing the 40 year old barrier? no picks, and no young talent going forward to improve from withing... we can talk shumpert but we have to see how that knee does,other than that, what you see is what you get.. we have to win now!!!!

I ask you where is the room for improvement after this season if we don't win.... and honestly the troll argument is old.. put on your big boy pants and answer my question..

if the knicks trashed their future to just win a division, then it is an ultimate failure .. end of story...

You always bring up youth and draft picks as if that is the key to winning or improvement in the short term. Yet, most of the top teams in the NBA are older and have been older year in and year out (except the Thunder who to date have no actually won a thing).


You'll find in almost every case they added youth to their team....

Spurs(Kawhai,Blair,Neal,Green,Splitter)
Lakers(Ebanks,Morris,Hill,Meeks)
Mavs(Boobwah,Mayo,Wright,Collison)
Memphis(Alligator Arms,Pondexter,Selby,Ellington,Arthur,Speights)

(although inverted)
Clippers(Bledsoe,Griffin,Jordan,Thompkins)

Which means when their vets fall off they have something to work with going forward and/or trade with exception to maybe the Lakers....all teams having picks and/or Cap Space to go with.

LOL...all those players can easily be had. That is a group of replaceables if I ever saw one. Outside of Mayo you are telling me the Knicks can't get any of those guys or type of guys in years to come??

The problem is these teams already have them and can flip them or improve with them, meanwhile we don't so we'll be behind trying to play catchup in 2yrs. Also those other teams will be able to duplicate anything we do in terms of rebuild, if not moreso.

We have a pretty good record so as it stands the 2013 pick won't be that good and supposedly the draft may not be strong the next 2yrs. Even if so that 2013 isn't sniffing any playing time on this team. The team we have now is the team we have for the next 2-3yrs then it bottoms completely the heck out. It's going to fall off harder than...


Vince Young

Steve Bumchise

Jermain Taylor

Like I said their are other avenues to improve your team. We've seen it several times with other franchises. I'm not worried at all. In 3 years all the top heavy contracts go off the books. Within those 3 years all the role players are easily replaceable. We can't tell the future and we don't need to. We should just enjoy the quality team we have on the court right now as fans instead of playing couch GMs. What's the fun in that?

If you would have told me or anyone else 2 years ago we would have Amare, Melo, Tyson Chandler, Kidd (no matter the age) and JR Smith compared to our roster back then I would have said no way we can make that happen. But we did.

AUTOADVERT
tkf
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12/10/2012  2:17 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:right now, kidd is the knicks MVP..
Your opinion rather than fact. Also, since most analyst have Melo #2 or #3 in MVP rankings while Kidd is nowhere to be found, I'd say your opinion is less than that of the minority.

tkf wrote:lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year?
Most Knick players are locked into contracts that extend beyond this year. Others, like JR will likely resign with NYK. The point you are attempting to make is not applicable to this NYK team.

tkf wrote:I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

There is only one LeBron and Rondo is not even the type of player you could build a team around, imo. The Knicks right now have Chandler, Kidd, Melo, Felton and Amar'e locked in for a few more years. That is a very sound nucleus. Amar'e has some health issues but so does Wade.

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting... and a bit premature...kidd's value to the knicks has been immeasurable.... so sure, that is my opinion, I never said it was a fact...

the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

what do you mean?

kidd has just been that big for our team.. almost too big to measure...his effect goes beyond wins.... even in our losses, you can take good from the things he does on the floor....and use that to improve on the following game.. I just love guys like that... not trying to start anything, but kidd is the type of franchise player this team needs.. and I am talking about a prime jason kidd, this is the type of guy you take the chance of trading away future picks, cap space, etc to get... Kid at 30 years of age is everything I would need to really get on board with such a move..... carmelo is just not even close to that type of player.... hence the apprehension I have with this team....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
yellowboy90
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12/10/2012  2:20 PM
tkf wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:right now, kidd is the knicks MVP..
Your opinion rather than fact. Also, since most analyst have Melo #2 or #3 in MVP rankings while Kidd is nowhere to be found, I'd say your opinion is less than that of the minority.

tkf wrote:lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year?
Most Knick players are locked into contracts that extend beyond this year. Others, like JR will likely resign with NYK. The point you are attempting to make is not applicable to this NYK team.

tkf wrote:I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

There is only one LeBron and Rondo is not even the type of player you could build a team around, imo. The Knicks right now have Chandler, Kidd, Melo, Felton and Amar'e locked in for a few more years. That is a very sound nucleus. Amar'e has some health issues but so does Wade.

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting... and a bit premature...kidd's value to the knicks has been immeasurable.... so sure, that is my opinion, I never said it was a fact...

the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

what do you mean?

kidd has just been that big for our team.. almost too big to measure...his effect goes beyond wins.... even in our losses, you can take good from the things he does on the floor....and use that to improve on the following game.. I just love guys like that... not trying to start anything, but kidd is the type of franchise player this team needs.. and I am talking about a prime jason kidd, this is the type of guy you take the chance of trading away future picks, cap space, etc to get... Kid at 30 years of age is everything I would need to really get on board with such a move..... carmelo is just not even close to that type of player.... hence the apprehension I have with this team....

Can you prove this with numbers?

FoeDiddy
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12/10/2012  2:24 PM
tkf wrote:
FoeDiddy wrote:
tkf wrote:
FoeDiddy wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

nah, I understand the process, I enjoy watching those teams, they will be fine... you see this is not that deep for me.. the knicks have to win NOW, those teams don't...... you still a fan...

So says you. The Knicks have not won their division, a playoff series or the conference in how long?!?!? There is a lot of room for improvement and success this season without winning it all. The must win now mantra is simply a pathetic attempt on your part to reserve the right to claim this season is a failure. I see what you are doing, troll!

if the knicks don't win this year, where do you expect this team to go in a confrence that is young and improving and the knicks having 3 guys crossing the 40 year old barrier? no picks, and no young talent going forward to improve from withing... we can talk shumpert but we have to see how that knee does,other than that, what you see is what you get.. we have to win now!!!!

I ask you where is the room for improvement after this season if we don't win.... and honestly the troll argument is old.. put on your big boy pants and answer my question..

if the knicks trashed their future to just win a division, then it is an ultimate failure .. end of story...

Those old guys are not the nucleus of the team. The Nucleus has 3 years. The role players are replaceable. Look at the heat, Wade is on the downturn of career, Celtics same thing. Every team has their issues. You make it seem like the Knicks front office can never make moves to improve the team. Their are clever ways to improve you team and the thing about having a winning program like Woodson is growing, players of quality will take less to come here over the years.

right now, kidd is the knicks MVP.. lets be honest with outselves.. the role players are replaceable.. so you are expecting the knicks to turn this team over every year? and who are you counting as the nuclues? amare? are we sure about his healthy? felton? are you confident with that? the east is getting younger and better... and our window is closing.. this is not some 3-4 year project.. this is two years max.. this year and next...

I agree every team has their issues, but those teams are already proven.. that is the difference.. and to be honest, it would be great to have a declining wade with lebron and bosh.. it would be great to have an aging celts team but have Rondo.... I am just not as confident as you are with our level of franchise talent... Give me a lebron and rondo and i would feel better about things going forward... this is where we differ and i respect your opinion...

I can't say Kidd is the MVP. He is a very important part to our success but MVP is overblown. Melo is and it's not close. Yes we got away with it against the Heat but look at the play against the Bulls. Bulls game is a easy win with Melo on the court. Whole team against the Bulls were shooting contested shots because we didn't have one player that warranted a double team to open things up. With no Melo every team would play us like that. With someone like Melo it's not only the points you look at but the opportunities he opens up for others because of his special skill set.

I agree on Lebron but i'm gonna wait on the verdict for Rondo. I'm not sure yet he is a player you can build a franchise around. He was tossed in a perfect situation playing with 3 HOF right out of college. You put him out of college on a team like Knicks (pre-Melo) or Bobcats and Im almost certain he is just okay right now and not this Great player he is now. Guys like Lebron or Melo regardless of where they got drafted were gonna be stars.

What team is getting younger and better with no question marks? Sixers?? You trust Bynum's health?? Milwaukee?? couple of years ago Bogut was their future and now what?? Monta Ellis & Brandon Jennings?? Bobcats?? you trust that team?? Every team has their questions regardless of youth. You make it seem like Knicks are the only one's with concerns.

aS i said every team has concerns, just some to a lesser extent... Time is always a factor when talking sports... the sixers best players best years are ahead of them this gives the team the time to make the necessary adjustments... we don't have that luxury... it doesn't mean we are doomed, it means we have to get it done now!! we don't have the luxury of having moral victories of winning the division, the hawks do, the sixers do the pacers do.. we don't....

funny you mention the bobcats... they gave us the business the other night until they imploded, but talent for talent, they whooped us it seems, but lets look at them, what do they need? time, maturity, some vets.. they have the resources to get vets, the flexibilty of time to get better.. so it doesn't matter if I trust them, they went from atrocious last year, to ok, they can compete on any night this year... that is a Huge jump.... where do they go from here? who knows, but they are building the resorces to put themselves in position for a long run.. we put oursleves in position for a short run... and we did so during a time in which the celts are still viable and lebron is still.. lebron...

As far as rondo goes... You can build around his skillset... I do somewhat question his temper, the guy has become a bit unstable, or maybe he was always that way... worth keeping an eye on..

That's the funny thing about sports. We don't know if the Sixers best players best years are ahead of them. I would actually bank more money on Holiday & Evans being the same players or maybe regressing in 2/3 years. Bobcats gave us the business last year too..that doesn't take away from the fact that their ceiling as a team is still sorry. If you recall about 3/4 years ago Bobcats made this same jump you talk of with Felton/Augustin/Tyrus Thomas and then reverted again to scrubdom. Hawks have been the same team for 5 years now. Pacers regressed from last year.

they might have the resources to get some vets but I bet you anything quality vets don't wanna go there. Most would even take less to go to a more desirable destination which the Knicks have become.

NUPE
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12/10/2012  2:28 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/10/2012  2:30 PM
tkf wrote:

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting...

If you actually watch games and listen to the analyst, pre-game shows and post-game shows you'd find that many refer to Melo as an MVP candidate. I have not heard a single analyst, expert, coach or whatever refer to Kidd as an MVP candidate. If you look up rankings at various sites they all have Melo anywhere from 1st and 3rd overall. Kidd is nowhere to be found.

If you do a simple web search you will find Melo, not Kidd, listed in regards to MVP:

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2012/12/carmelo_anthony_clear-cut_lead.html
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/30327/opening-tip-melo-for-mvp
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zach-wasser/carmelo-anthony-mvp_b_2194131.html
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/10/hartnett-melo-continues-to-build-his-mvp-resume-with-every-game/

There are literally dozens of articles and rankings like this. None mention Kidd that I have seen. Most mention Melo as a legitimate contender assuming the Knicks continue to win.

Kidd is an important cog in the Knick machine but claiming Kidd is the MVP is laughable and tantamount to trolling.

tkf wrote:the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

I did not mention Camby as an asset. Novak is on a reasonable contract and the best three point shooter in the NBA. Kidd is Kidd and has more than earned his contract so far.

dk7th
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12/10/2012  2:45 PM
AnubisADL wrote:dk7th trying to be slick but I seen this coming a mile away.

Melo getting penalized for putting the team on his back. Knicks play TWO PGs with with Felton and Kidd in the game. So Melo allows them to facilitate and he focuses on scoring, rebounding, and defending.

Below are the top 10 players by Usage Rate. Only SF with a usage rate as close to Melo is Lebron. I guess maybe Melo should shoot less and we lose so his stats will look better.


RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
1 Carmelo Anthony, NY 18 35.8 .569 7.1 10.0 30.6 6.0 16.0 10.7 24.07 130.6 4.4
2 Kobe Bryant, LAL 21 37.4 .608 15.2 11.7 30.3 2.0 12.4 7.4 25.57 176.8 5.9
3 Russell Westbrook, OKC 21 35.8 .516 26.1 10.3 30.1 4.8 10.6 8.0 22.94 134.0 4.5
4 Kyrie Irving, CLE 10 35.2 .567 18.7 13.7 29.7 1.5 11.6 6.2 20.26 48.6 1.6
5 Kevin Love, MIN 9 34.4 .493 8.1 9.0 28.6 12.6 33.0 22.9 22.36 50.3 1.7
6 DeMarcus Cousins, SAC 17 30.4 .476 9.5 11.6 27.5 11.1 27.4 19.1 19.33 67.3 2.2
7 LeBron James, MIA 18 37.6 .596 22.6 8.4 27.5 5.3 22.4 14.4 28.94 186.1 6.2
8 Jordan Crawford, WSH 17 25.6 .512 19.9 10.4 27.1 4.8 10.5 7.5 17.82 47.6 1.6
9 James Harden, HOU 19 38.9 .579 18.0 13.2 26.8 2.7 10.0 6.3 20.75 113.0 3.8
10 Monta Ellis, MIL 19 35.3 .482 19.5 9.9 26.7 1.3 9.3 5.2 16.39 54.0 1.8

TS%: True Shooting Percentage - what a player's shooting percentage would be if we accounted for free throws and 3-pointers. True Shooting Percentage = Total points / [(FGA + (0.44 x FTA)]
AST: Assist Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
TO: Turnover Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that end in a turnover. Turnover Ratio = (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
USG: Usage Rate - the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)
ORR: Offensive rebound rate
DRR: Defensive rebound rate
REBR: Rebound Rate - the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds. Rebound Rate = (100 x (Rebounds x Team Minutes)) divided by [Player Minutes x (Team Rebounds + Opponent Rebounds)]
PER: Player Efficiency Rating is the overall rating of a player's per-minute statistical production. The league average is 15.00 every season.

nice try but i'm going to check you on this one:

1) it is not the usage rate at issue here but the ratio of usage to assist rate. melo's is scary bad.
2) your excuse of "having 2 point guards" is both circular as it is laughable. it doesn't occur to you that, because he is so bad at generating offensive cohesion, that he "needs" two point guards to make up for the lack? and by the way felton is really far below par for his position in terms of generating offensive flow-- which is why knick fans like you had better pray and pray real hard to all the egyptian gods that jason kidd's health holds up.

so yeah sure this frees melo up to score inefficiently and make an occasional appearance at rebounding and defending. last night he corralled a whopping 6 boards. yay melo! he's doing a bit better than in the past but he is much closer to a zero-sum player than most realize.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
AnubisADL
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12/10/2012  2:55 PM
Those high usage players are racking up losses except Lebron and Westbrook.

Lebron plays with Wade, Bosh, Allen, Battier, etc
Westbrook plays with Durant, Ibaka, Martin, etc

Kobe playing with Gasol and Howard and still losing

Melo plays with Kidd, Felton, Chandler, and Smith

You are trying too hard dude. Knicks are winning. You just going to have to deal with it.

NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
Bonn1997
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12/10/2012  3:05 PM
NUPE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.


But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.
dk7th
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12/10/2012  3:30 PM
AnubisADL wrote:Those high usage players are racking up losses except Lebron and Westbrook.

Lebron plays with Wade, Bosh, Allen, Battier, etc
Westbrook plays with Durant, Ibaka, Martin, etc

Kobe playing with Gasol and Howard and still losing

Melo plays with Kidd, Felton, Chandler, and Smith

You are trying too hard dude. Knicks are winning. You just going to have to deal with it.

knicks are winning regular season games. be we do agree the goal is a title right? if yes then what's wrong with pointing out flaws that will inhibit accomplishing this goal and coming up with suggestions.

if no that isn't the goal for you then i guess we won't see anything quite the same way. i don't suffer from battered wife syndrome and i am going to hold the knicks organization to higher standards than most of its fanbase. that was the direction they took in february 2010. i am not going to rah-rah as though i should be grateful. they are win-now mode. they will never say that and why should they?

but the "facts on the ground," where the "rubber meets the road," and the realpolitik all say one thing: win now or it is failure.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
tkf
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12/10/2012  3:33 PM
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting...

If you actually watch games and listen to the analyst, pre-game shows and post-game shows you'd find that many refer to Melo as an MVP candidate. I have not heard a single analyst, expert, coach or whatever refer to Kidd as an MVP candidate. If you look up rankings at various sites they all have Melo anywhere from 1st and 3rd overall. Kidd is nowhere to be found.

If you do a simple web search you will find Melo, not Kidd, listed in regards to MVP:

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2012/12/carmelo_anthony_clear-cut_lead.html
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/30327/opening-tip-melo-for-mvp
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zach-wasser/carmelo-anthony-mvp_b_2194131.html
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/10/hartnett-melo-continues-to-build-his-mvp-resume-with-every-game/

There are literally dozens of articles and rankings like this. None mention Kidd that I have seen. Most mention Melo as a legitimate contender assuming the Knicks continue to win.

Kidd is an important cog in the Knick machine but claiming Kidd is the MVP is laughable and tantamount to trolling.

tkf wrote:the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

I did not mention Camby as an asset. Novak is on a reasonable contract and the best three point shooter in the NBA. Kidd is Kidd and has more than earned his contract so far.

this convo is so over your head isn't it?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bonn1997
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12/10/2012  3:40 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.


But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

BTW, if you add up all the individual players win shares on the Knicks, you get exactly 15.0. (Usually the sum of the individual players' win shares is very close to the actual record of the team but not identical to it.) So, citing that we have 15.0 wins, certainly doesn't contradict examining win shares!
ChuckBuck
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12/10/2012  3:45 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.


But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

BTW, if you add up all the individual players win shares on the Knicks, you get exactly 15.0. (Usually the sum of the individual players' win shares is very close to the actual record of the team but not identical to it.) So, citing that we have 15.0 wins, certainly doesn't contradict examining win shares!

Wow Marcus Camby is responsible for -0.1 Win Shares!

We actually have a negative sum player on the team.

dk7th
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12/10/2012  3:55 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Hersports85 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:
dk7th wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:
dk7th wrote:carmelo hits his career average with 54.7TS% the knicks will struggle like they did. 24FGA too many but 16FTA helps. 1 assist

knicks as a team also shot 54.7

gallo 70.2%TS 9 boards 3 assists; but their problem is iguodala underachieving (5 TO) and that lawson turnover killed them

nuggets as a team 62.5%TS

Translation

Gallo played a good game but it is other players fault that Denver lost. Uh huh. If Gallo is so good he should be able to put the team on his back to win.

What Gallo is doing is called STAT PADDING. See Shareef Abdur Rahim. Great stats lots of losses.

gallo played a very efficient good game. melo made a couple of great baskets on him late. it was a good duel.

22 points off turnovers for the knicks: that is a key statistic.

faried 0 offensive boards this is underachieving for faried as he is the second best offensive rebounder in the league.
iguodala 5 turnovers and 3 assists it is usually the other way around isn't it. he, like melo, could also afford to be more efficient.
gallo fired up an air ball. that was the only glaring error.
lawson lost the ball at the end while the nuggets had a chance. that was the game right there.

Felton and Smith didnt have good games and Melo picked up the slack.

If Gallo saw Igoudala and Faried weren't having good games why didn't he try to compensate? He just essential let his team lose.

melo did very little to pick up the slack. he remains a volume shooter whose positive impact on the game remains overhyped. jason kidd picked up the slack, again.

the game was close right to the end and the knicks went on a 12-0 run with both gallo and melo on the bench. you need to see the whole game and digest the goings-on. sounds like all you did was look at the points he scored and not how he scored them, and that he made a very nice drive on gallinari from the left side to help seal a victory. yay melo. you seem like a fool's gold viewer, looking for shiny stuff and believing it has genuine value.

gallo let his team lose? nah i don't see it that way. he is a role player, a borderline all-star reserve, and played his role as dictated by his coach. it's lawson's role to orchestrate and he falls short in that area which holds the nuggets back. notice that lawson's shooting has gone down and he can't make up for it in other areas.

now how does gallinari help iguodala from committing 5 turnovers? or help faried from getting his usual number of offensive rebounds?

i understand that gallinari is a sensitive touchstone and we all know how important this game was to melo and gallo.

like i said it was a good duel between those two and the knicks won.

I guess you know more than the NBA analyst, Ex-players, some who are going to the HOF, and coaches. Why even bother listening to them break down Melo's impact on the game, we should just listen to you.

He knows more than the people you think are experts, yes. He may not know more than the real experts though like David Berri and Bill James. I sure don't.

to whatever degree these dudes are beholden to the stern hype machine they cannot be trusted to be truthful even if they know better. jon barry got demoted and i bet most posters here hated his take on things.

i am not a fan of the so-called experts. i do like the tnt crew for the most part but they are like rashomon. all three of those guys plus chris weber are very good.

most of these web writers are terrible. and yes i am better than they are at this stuff.

i have never been much of a stat guy and have almost exclusively gone by the eye test. nowadays there are a lot of stats that are supposed to be good measures in basketball but in this fluid a sport it is really tough to use them properly. you have to be able to synthesize experience/empirical evidence and then see which stats give the best support for what the eyes see.

it also doesn't hurt to know something about human nature and have strong mental faculties.

my use of words leads people to believe that i am sort of geeky computer nerd who was a mere towel boy back in the day. that is amusing.

i will make an effort to remain a gentleman here but i guess i am going to have to start checking guys when they get too out of line. realgm couldn't handle it-- me not being rah-rah i mean.

if anyone wants rah-rah from me they're going to have to wait until we get to the eastern conference finals. that's the floor of everyone's expectations for this team and if it isn't then i guess some dudes want a built-in excuse for failure.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
NUPE
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12/10/2012  3:59 PM
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

most analyst like who? I think you pay way too much attention to these mock rankings.. they have somewhat little value as that is not the actual voting...

If you actually watch games and listen to the analyst, pre-game shows and post-game shows you'd find that many refer to Melo as an MVP candidate. I have not heard a single analyst, expert, coach or whatever refer to Kidd as an MVP candidate. If you look up rankings at various sites they all have Melo anywhere from 1st and 3rd overall. Kidd is nowhere to be found.

If you do a simple web search you will find Melo, not Kidd, listed in regards to MVP:

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2012/12/carmelo_anthony_clear-cut_lead.html
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/30327/opening-tip-melo-for-mvp
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zach-wasser/carmelo-anthony-mvp_b_2194131.html
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/10/hartnett-melo-continues-to-build-his-mvp-resume-with-every-game/

There are literally dozens of articles and rankings like this. None mention Kidd that I have seen. Most mention Melo as a legitimate contender assuming the Knicks continue to win.

Kidd is an important cog in the Knick machine but claiming Kidd is the MVP is laughable and tantamount to trolling.

tkf wrote:the fact that camby, kidd and novak are locked into long term deals is not a good thing.. camby looks shot, novak we overpaid for and kidd I wonder how much he has left.. I really like this guy, but i don't see this level of play for a whole year, moreso 3...

I did not mention Camby as an asset. Novak is on a reasonable contract and the best three point shooter in the NBA. Kidd is Kidd and has more than earned his contract so far.

this convo is so over your head isn't it?

Or, perhaps you are just flustered, frustrated and furious with reality.

Reality: There are a multitude of experts, analysts, writers, etc. referring to Melo as a legitimate MVP candidate.

Fantasy Land: Kidd is the Knicks MVP.

Bonn1997
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12/10/2012  4:01 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.


But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

BTW, if you add up all the individual players win shares on the Knicks, you get exactly 15.0. (Usually the sum of the individual players' win shares is very close to the actual record of the team but not identical to it.) So, citing that we have 15.0 wins, certainly doesn't contradict examining win shares!

Wow Marcus Camby is responsible for -0.1 Win Shares!

We actually have a negative sum player on the team.


Why is that hard to believe? It's simply saying that in his limited playing time, his presence has hurt the team. In 46 minutes, he's made 0 field goals and turned the ball over four times. -0.1 sounds kind of generous!
dk7th
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12/10/2012  4:01 PM
3G4G wrote:
tkf wrote:
3G4G wrote:
Hersports85 wrote:
3G4G wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:
dk7th wrote:the knicks went on a 12-0 run with melo on the bench and gallo on the bench. hard for you to acknowledge that for some reason so i repeat it for you.

how is gallo supposed to facilitate when lawson is on the floor? if you are going to ask a rhetorical question at least make it a valid one and not misdirection.

this "putting the team on his back" stuff is where you go into profound fool's gold mode.

When Gallo came in the score was 92-88 in favor of the Knicks. Who gives a **** about whether it was a 50-0 run. The game was winnable for Denver.

Gallo choked and Melo lit his ass up. Gallo is a shooter. He had plenty of opportunities to let that 3 ball fly and match Melo's output those last 4 minutes but didn't.

Keep it real man.


Melo did his thing during winning time....but the team took control of the game with him on the bench and basically ran the offense through Kidd who had a more significant impact overall in the game.

Melo is having a good season, he's getting recognized for the things he's doing well which is primarily scoring but the Knicks are having success with contributions coming from everyone.

Good post. I don't think anyone can argue with this. No one is trying to say Melo is Jordan, it's just frustrating when some posters try to pretend that Melo is doing nothing to contribute to the success we are having and trying to point out the littlest things to make a point or further an agenda.


It has more to do with going over the top with credit he deserves. Like saying against the Bulls had we had Melo we would have won, well had the Bulls had Rose what then?

Then if you say well it would have been nice to have a healthy Shumpert well what if the Bulls had a healthy Rip Hamilton? Then if you say well it would have been nice to have Amar'e then what if Taj Gibson doesn't get ejected?


There was way too much Melo this Melo that before one game was even played this year and then as it got underway it continued to increase beyond. It would be nice to see more balance when discussing him mixing it with discussion of other Knicks.

exactly.. good post..

Keep in mind the same group of fans who despise Bulls and their players were the same ones getting on them for overrating their young players over the years and overrating Rose's MVP candidacy..... you know when the Bulls won a hell of a lot of games that year and Rose had a career year. I was even one who said he probably shouldn't have received the award and that his teammates deserved more credit. Is there a big difference from what we've done and are currently doing?

I see similar situation developing here in that the team is better than at times given credit for without the Star. We saw the following year how things played out with the Bulls and Rose and to a certain extent again this year.


We have to learn to keep things in their proper perspective.

rose did not deserve the MVP that year. that was a stern-hype machine job.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
dk7th
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12/10/2012  4:03 PM
NUPE wrote:
3G4G wrote:Keep in mind the same group of fans who despise Bulls and their players were the same ones getting on them for overrating their young players over the years and overrating Rose's MVP candidacy..... you know when the Bulls won a hell of a lot of games that year and Rose had a career year. I was even one who said he probably shouldn't have received the award and that his teammates deserved more credit. Is there a big difference from what we've done and are currently doing?

I see similar situation developing here in that the team is better than at times given credit for without the Star. We saw the following year how things played out with the Bulls and Rose and to a certain extent again this year.


We have to learn to keep things in their proper perspective.

Well, Rose certainly deserved the MVP the year he won it. An argument could be made for others that year but Rose was certainly in that discussion and deserving. Melo is certainly in the discussion this year and whether he wins it or not will depend on various things but Melo is certainly in the discussion. This does not detract from other players making strong contributions to Knick wins. No one has stated Melo is the sole reason as to why the Knicks are 15 - 5. However, the award goes to the best player on one of the best teams and Melo is clearly the best player on the team right now.

i bet he'd trade in the mvp for being mvp of the finals, but it's a regular-season award and he was sufficiently exposed in the playoffs. no biggie he has company there.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
ChuckBuck
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12/10/2012  4:06 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.


But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

BTW, if you add up all the individual players win shares on the Knicks, you get exactly 15.0. (Usually the sum of the individual players' win shares is very close to the actual record of the team but not identical to it.) So, citing that we have 15.0 wins, certainly doesn't contradict examining win shares!

Wow Marcus Camby is responsible for -0.1 Win Shares!

We actually have a negative sum player on the team.


Why is that hard to believe? It's simply saying that in his limited playing time, his presence has hurt the team. In 46 minutes, he's made 0 field goals and turned the ball over four times. -0.1 sounds kind of generous!

Chris Copeland and James White at 0.1 are laughing their asses off at Camby!

NUPE
Posts: 21221
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12/10/2012  4:08 PM
dk7th wrote:
NUPE wrote:
3G4G wrote:Keep in mind the same group of fans who despise Bulls and their players were the same ones getting on them for overrating their young players over the years and overrating Rose's MVP candidacy..... you know when the Bulls won a hell of a lot of games that year and Rose had a career year. I was even one who said he probably shouldn't have received the award and that his teammates deserved more credit. Is there a big difference from what we've done and are currently doing?

I see similar situation developing here in that the team is better than at times given credit for without the Star. We saw the following year how things played out with the Bulls and Rose and to a certain extent again this year.


We have to learn to keep things in their proper perspective.

Well, Rose certainly deserved the MVP the year he won it. An argument could be made for others that year but Rose was certainly in that discussion and deserving. Melo is certainly in the discussion this year and whether he wins it or not will depend on various things but Melo is certainly in the discussion. This does not detract from other players making strong contributions to Knick wins. No one has stated Melo is the sole reason as to why the Knicks are 15 - 5. However, the award goes to the best player on one of the best teams and Melo is clearly the best player on the team right now.

i bet he'd trade in the mvp for being mvp of the finals, but it's a regular-season award and he was sufficiently exposed in the playoffs. no biggie he has company there.

I don't know how losing to a superior team equates to being exposed. Perhaps you have a lack of real understanding regarding basketball. The Heat were clearly the better team, undeniably. I am not a Rose fan. Heck, I am not really a Melo fan (I am a Knick fan). I am just calling a spade a spade.

Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
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12/10/2012  4:09 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NUPE wrote:Knicks: 15 - 5. That is the only stat that I care for. Haters, you know who you are, can go sit in a corner. LMAO!

Who do you think you're arguing against? Is there anyone who said the team is not 15-5 or is playing poorly?

The kids yammering about TS%, FG%, win shares and other assorted irrelevant stats throughout this thread.


But those are not contradictory. I've talked about win shares and TS% yet I never claimed the team's record was 14-6 or 13-7 or anything other than 15-5.

BTW, if you add up all the individual players win shares on the Knicks, you get exactly 15.0. (Usually the sum of the individual players' win shares is very close to the actual record of the team but not identical to it.) So, citing that we have 15.0 wins, certainly doesn't contradict examining win shares!

Wow Marcus Camby is responsible for -0.1 Win Shares!

We actually have a negative sum player on the team.


Why is that hard to believe? It's simply saying that in his limited playing time, his presence has hurt the team. In 46 minutes, he's made 0 field goals and turned the ball over four times. -0.1 sounds kind of generous!

Chris Copeland and James White at 0.1 are laughing their asses off at Camby!


I'm still confused as to what point you're trying to make.
Game Thread: Knicks vs Knuggs. Wilson vs. JR, Melo vs. gallo, Moz vs. Sheed..........

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