Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

The Phoenix Suns FGA% and 3pt% Allowed were lower in the year before Bell arrived than in any year Bell has been there.

Is that black and white enough for you?

Honestly, I think its stupid that you're arguing that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3s. A priori he was brought in primarily as a defensive boost. I don't think thats really arguable although I'll let you try and convince me. There were a number of 3pt shooters with better percentages available at that time whom they chose not to acquire. Regardless, the cumulative numbers afterwards are a reflection of a variety of factors, including the development of Barbosa and the fine-tuning of the Suns offense.

I'm not arguing that D'Antonio had ZERO concern for defense, I'm arguing that he didn't have nearly enough, not even close actually. Your, "well they added these 3 players" argument proves my case far more than it does yours. Adding a single average defender to your starting lineup, without concentrating on your overall team defense, is nothing but window dressing. And the statistics bear that out.

I never said that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3's. In fact, I never brought up his 3pt shooting.

You've yet to offer any proof that the Suns attention to team defense increased in any way with the acquisition of Bell or any combination of those 3 players. I on the other hand have offered nothing but stats and results.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

The Phoenix Suns FGA% and 3pt% Allowed were lower in the year before Bell arrived than in any year Bell has been there.

Is that black and white enough for you?

Honestly, I think its stupid that you're arguing that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3s. A priori he was brought in primarily as a defensive boost. I don't think thats really arguable although I'll let you try and convince me. There were a number of 3pt shooters with better percentages available at that time whom they chose not to acquire. Regardless, the cumulative numbers afterwards are a reflection of a variety of factors, including the development of Barbosa and the fine-tuning of the Suns offense.

I'm not arguing that D'Antonio had ZERO concern for defense, I'm arguing that he didn't have nearly enough, not even close actually. Your, "well they added these 3 players" argument proves my case far more than it does yours. Adding a single average defender to your starting lineup, without concentrating on your overall team defense, is nothing but window dressing. And the statistics bear that out.

I never said that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3's. In fact, I never brought up his 3pt shooting.

You've yet to offer any proof that the Suns attention to team defense increased in any way with the acquisition of Bell or any combination of those 3 players. I on the other hand have offered nothing but stats and results.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Regardless, the cumulative numbers afterwards are a reflection of a variety of factors, including the development of Barbosa and the fine-tuning of the Suns offense.

I assume you're talking about the fact that the Suns defensive statistics never improved and in some cases got worse despite the addition of Raja Bell. So the addition of someone who supposedly galvanized the team defensively, couldn't offset the addition of a backup who played fewer minutes than him?

As for the fine tuning of the Suns Offense, their Points Per Game were higher the year before Bell arrived than in any season since.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Regardless, the cumulative numbers afterwards are a reflection of a variety of factors, including the development of Barbosa and the fine-tuning of the Suns offense.

I assume you're talking about the fact that the Suns defensive statistics never improved and in some cases got worse despite the addition of Raja Bell. So the addition of someone who supposedly galvanized the team defensively, couldn't offset the addition of a backup who played fewer minutes than him?

As for the fine tuning of the Suns Offense, their Points Per Game were higher the year before Bell arrived than in any season since.

Out of curiosity, does that mean that D'Antoni's offensive coaching suffered as well?

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

The Phoenix Suns FGA% and 3pt% Allowed were lower in the year before Bell arrived than in any year Bell has been there.

Is that black and white enough for you?

Honestly, I think its stupid that you're arguing that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3s. A priori he was brought in primarily as a defensive boost. I don't think thats really arguable although I'll let you try and convince me. There were a number of 3pt shooters with better percentages available at that time whom they chose not to acquire. Regardless, the cumulative numbers afterwards are a reflection of a variety of factors, including the development of Barbosa and the fine-tuning of the Suns offense.

I'm not arguing that D'Antonio had ZERO concern for defense, I'm arguing that he didn't have nearly enough, not even close actually. Your, "well they added these 3 players" argument proves my case far more than it does yours. Adding a single average defender to your starting lineup, without concentrating on your overall team defense, is nothing but window dressing. And the statistics bear that out.

I never said that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3's. In fact, I never brought up his 3pt shooting.

You've yet to offer any proof that the Suns attention to team defense increased in any way with the acquisition of Bell or any combination of those 3 players. I on the other hand have offered nothing but stats and results.

Your stats and results are not very convincing. The mysterious overall team defense that you're enamored with was not getting any better with Nash, Diaw, Amare and, finally, Shaq playing large minutes. What specifically do you think was lacking in D'Antoni's defensive scheme?

I can see why stats and results wouldn't be very convincing when you have nothing but supposition to support your argument.

Not sure why overall team defense is so mysterious. The Spurs and Pistons have used it to great success over the years, as have every other NBA champion. I'm pretty sure it's not a coincidence.

Maybe if D'Antonio and his coaches put more of an emphasis on team defense or taught them how to play better team defense, those players would have improved. I'm not going to include an old and broken down Shaq, especially when D'Antonio never even wanted him.

What specifically do you think was lacking in D'Antoni's defensive scheme?

Effort. Technique. A team defensive system in general.

Its stunning to me that you actually believe what you're typing. Maybe if you think about my last question (whether D'Antoni's offensive coaching also suffered?), you'll realize why the only people your stats will be convincing are those who didn't need it.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

The Phoenix Suns FGA% and 3pt% Allowed were lower in the year before Bell arrived than in any year Bell has been there.

Is that black and white enough for you?

Honestly, I think its stupid that you're arguing that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3s. A priori he was brought in primarily as a defensive boost. I don't think thats really arguable although I'll let you try and convince me. There were a number of 3pt shooters with better percentages available at that time whom they chose not to acquire. Regardless, the cumulative numbers afterwards are a reflection of a variety of factors, including the development of Barbosa and the fine-tuning of the Suns offense.

I'm not arguing that D'Antonio had ZERO concern for defense, I'm arguing that he didn't have nearly enough, not even close actually. Your, "well they added these 3 players" argument proves my case far more than it does yours. Adding a single average defender to your starting lineup, without concentrating on your overall team defense, is nothing but window dressing. And the statistics bear that out.

I never said that Bell was brought in purely because he can shoot 3's. In fact, I never brought up his 3pt shooting.

You've yet to offer any proof that the Suns attention to team defense increased in any way with the acquisition of Bell or any combination of those 3 players. I on the other hand have offered nothing but stats and results.

Your stats and results are not very convincing. The mysterious overall team defense that you're enamored with was not getting any better with Nash, Diaw, Amare and, finally, Shaq playing large minutes. What specifically do you think was lacking in D'Antoni's defensive scheme?

I can see why stats and results wouldn't be very convincing when you have nothing but supposition to support your argument.

Not sure why overall team defense is so mysterious. The Spurs and Pistons have used it to great success over the years, as have every other NBA champion. I'm pretty sure it's not a coincidence.

Maybe if D'Antonio and his coaches put more of an emphasis on team defense or taught them how to play better team defense, those players would have improved. I'm not going to include an old and broken down Shaq, especially when D'Antonio never even wanted him.

What specifically do you think was lacking in D'Antoni's defensive scheme?

Effort. Technique. A team defensive system in general.

Its stunning to me that you actually believe what you're typing. Maybe if you think about my last question (whether D'Antoni's offensive coaching also suffered?), you'll realize why the only people your stats will be convincing are those who didn't need it.

Posted by islesfan:


Do me a favor and tell me what exactly you find stunning that I actually believe what I'm typing. Be specific.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:


Do me a favor and tell me what exactly you find stunning that I actually believe what I'm typing. Be specific.

What specifically do you mean?

Oh and your stats are window dressing.

Your supposition wishes that it were good enough to be window dressing.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:


I'm still waiting for you to offer any type of proof that the Suns attention to team defense improved under D'Antonio.

Well, then, you can keep waiting. I'm still waiting for you to explain what specifically what they should have done differently both in terms of matchups, rotations and personel changes. I'm also waiting for you to explain why their personel (including an aging Nash) doesn't factor into your exquisite analysis.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:


Do me a favor and tell me what exactly you find stunning that I actually believe what I'm typing. Be specific.

What specifically do you mean?

Oh and your stats are window dressing.

You tell me. What exactly am I typing that is so unbelievable to you that I believe to be true?

[Edited by - islesfan on 30-05-2008 03:08 AM]

Its unbelieveble that you would expect me to be convinced by your fg% and ppg stats without considering personel changes, opposition ft attempts, rebounding and a whole host of other variables including but not limited to the league's fg% as a whole over those years.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by islesfan:


I'm still waiting for you to offer any type of proof that the Suns attention to team defense improved under D'Antonio.

Well, then, you can keep waiting. I'm still waiting for you to explain what specifically what they should have done differently both in terms of matchups, rotations and personel changes. I'm also waiting for you to explain why their personel (including an aging Nash) doesn't factor into your exquisite analysis.

That's pretty much the non answer that I expected from you. It's pretty much par for the course for you in this discussion. Can't really call it an argument when you don't have anything to support your weak hypothesis.

How about simply playing some defense instead of just waiting to get the ball back so they could run up the court. But as far as specifics, how about pressing full court or halfcourt. A team in that kind of running shape could have easily implemented that defensive style. Or how about acquiring a solid defensive big man who could block shots. Of course not, because they were too busy fine tuning their offense. How about double teaming on defense with much better defensive rotation.

Ok, now it's your turn to give specific examples of what you think they did to improve their overall team defense.

Ummm, that "aging Nash" won 2 MVP's in that period.

Those suggestions are window dressing.

Acquiring a solid defensive big man and stay under the cap all at once? How would you suggest that be accomplished? Be specific.

Press full court - with who? their centers? You want Nash to press pull-court? I'd like my MVP to be conscious in the 4th quarter, thank you.

Double teaming on defense? They did that on every possession in the 2006 playoffs. Because they had to.

See, Isles, its easy for you to throw out generalizations that don't quite apply. Its a lot more difficult to create a better defensive team when you have Nash and any of their centers as major cogs to the puzzle.

I really wish you would be specific about any improvements that the Suns made to improve their overall team defense so I could call it window dressing. But alas you refuse to offer any specifics to support your argument. Oh well.

Acquiring a solid defensive big man and stay under the cap all at once? How would you suggest that be accomplished? Be specific.

How about not constantly trading your first rd picks away and try to draft and develop a defensive big man?

Press full court - with who? their centers? You want Nash to press pull-court? I'd like my MVP to be conscious in the 4th quarter, thank you.

How about start with your defensive cure all, Raja Bell? Wait, the Suns can run all day on offense but if you ask them to press full court or picking it up at half court (which you conveniently left out) would render them unconscious? Why would they use their centers to pick up full court?? Have you ever heard of guards and forwards? And why do you act like if they implemented a full court press, that they would have to do it until they dropped? Believe it or not, it can be effective in spurts, like zone defenses which the Suns also never tried.

Double teaming on defense? They did that on every possession in the 2006 playoffs. Because they had to.

Why only in the playoffs? Why only when they had to?

See code, it's real easy to just dismiss other people's specific arguments when you make none of of your own.

Ok, I'm going to wait until you can give any specific examples of how their team defense improved under D'Antonio before I continue explaining mine.