Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

martin wrote:

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https://www.twitter.com/knicksmuse/status/1840437467209429302

How can anyone hate this trade?

Hold on, yes, I loved Randle and Donte. That three against the Sixers runs rent-free in my mind. I wish them luck in their new situation.

But man! MAN! Remember many seasons ago when we were hoping for a star Point Guard and we finally got our star in Brunson? And his connection to the Knicks was clear since the beginning as a young NY fan?

What about a stretch 5 to truly compete in this era, a very talented and legit 7-footer who has played at his best as a Center and has the shot to rival guards! And the guy was a Knicks fan as a kid as well?! And his reasons to appreciate the franchise even beyond his fan hood are solid. He must be conflicted because he really seems to love Min and who wouldn’t after 9 years, but he is indeed coming home. He now has a chance to get his game to a new level while playing for his childhood team?

I’m very excited about this! Yes, people have questions and I’m glad there are because that means there is potential for better days from him. Just like it was with Brunson, so many doubting him and calling him a bench player and nothing more.

This is such a cool team to represent New York! I’m very excited about what this all could lead to!

The issue I have with the trade is that KAT isn't a center, IMHO. If the trade is Randle/Divo for a legit stretch "5", I can get behind the vision. Randle/Divo for another 4 who isnt substantially better seems like a lateral move, at best.

Would you consider Jokic a good defender? If not, then I guess it would be impossible for Denver to win a chip with him playing center or to make deep playoff runs. I really don’t get the argument. Towns does a lot of things at an elite level but that’s not good enough for you. Maybe you just really wanted to keep the status quo with Randle and Divo. Towns is a VERY good basketball player. Hating on him because maybe he’s not a plus defender is illogical. There’s a video on this thread of Towns bombing 3’s, then further in it details how he gets to the basket. There is so much to like there. It’s such a mute improvement over putting your head down and dribbling into 3 guys guarding the basket. Our floor spacing is going to give teams nightmares. No more 5-10 minute stretches where we can’t score. Our team got better. We upgraded talent. It’s all good. DDV can be replaced. His replacement might even already be on the team. What we really need is a healthy Mitch which isn’t Towns’s fault

Are you suggesting KAT is in the same stratosphere as Jokic? KAT shoots at an elite level. That's not a lot of things. KAT is a flawed star, like many in the league. Heck, Jokic is flawed. But he's still miles ahead of KAT in terms of impact. Yes, I'm hating on Towns because he's not a plus defender. The premise I'm hearing is that KAT is this stretch 5 who will lead the team to the promise land. But, how accurate is that if you can't defend the position full-time. The reason KP works is that he provides elite rim protection. As of now, all I can say is that team traded a borderline All NBA PF and a starting level SG for a borderline All NBA PF. I don't think it moves the needle.

Yes, I am suggesting Towns is in the same stratosphere as Jokic on the defensive end. Are you suggesting Jokic is in the same stratosphere as Towns from 3pt range?

No, but I'm suggesting Jokic is a better player. A way better player. Imma go out of my way and say the words "KAT for MVP have never been uttered. This is like saying DDV is close to Devin Booker because he's a better three point shooter. Jokic functions at such a high level on offense that it more than makes up for his defense. KAT isn't at that level.

Maybe you watched this already, it was posted earlier in this thread but I dunno. Look what Towns brings with his offensive skillset and tell me that this isn’t a great fit for this team.

I'm not arguing KAT is a scrub. My thing is, I don't really see him as center. If he's not a center, then what's the point? Even if you argue he's better than Randle, I'll pushback on anyone who says he Donte and a fake first round pick levels better than Randle. So what if Donte is unhappy. Trade him for a pick it a legit backup center. This move is lateral. We traded a borderline All NBA PF for another borderline All NBA PF. The difference is we're stuck with a borderline All NBA PF making $50M a year. You know what happens if he doesn't workout? The team is stuck with him. He's untradable for the next 3 years. Even if you extend Randle for 3/$40M, Randle and Donte combined still wouldn't take up as much cap space. If you're going to push all your chips in, I'd expect morenthan KAT.

We won 50 games this last season. With this trade I am very comfortable predicting a 56 win season, so yes, I think the trade makes us a better team. We struggled in the playoffs against Miami. Our offense is better now and not as stagnant. I have zero worries we are a better team than Miami with this trade. We barely beat Philly with a hobbled Embiid. This team with Towns is better than the Sixers and Indiana....Cleveland, Orlando and Milwaukee. We will also match up against Boston very well. With this trade, we are a better team so no, this was not a lateral move

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:In this case, I'd say that's exactly how it's worked for several years. KAT is bad at drop coverage and instead of fighting it, the Wolves decided to bring in Gobert. KAT is entering year 10 now. It's unlikely that he becomes a defensive center.

Yeah but no one is trying to make that case right? That’s not KAT’s role or expectation.

That’s the assumed starting point of just what he is. No one expecting Brunson to be a 2-way PG, his role is to destroy defenses. Thibs and team will absolutely help Brunson KAT be the best team defenders they can, that’s all you ask for because of their elite offensive abilities.

It’s why the Knicks have and traded for OG Mikal Hart Deuce Mitch. To cover Brunson and the KAT/Randle weaknesses, and also to enhance their strengths.

I don’t start with the assumption that every minutes of a Thibs team has to have elite rim protection. All Thibs talks about is NET rating. It’s clearer to understand FO roster construction after that departure.

Knicks FO are not going for perfect but rather as best as they can within their salary and asset pool.

I've heard quite a few people say this trade was made with the expectation that KAT will be our stretch 5. But, KAT is just bad at it defensively. If he's not a stretch 5, that just makes him a tall 4. Cool. He's a slight upgrade over Randle. But the bench got significantly weaker, the cap is even more mucked up and we still need a center. I'd say this roster is probably a better matchup for Boston now than it was pre-trade. I'd say the same for Philadelphia. This FO has been on quite roll, but they haven't been perfect. Obi, Kemba, Fournier...I think this FO has made a gamble that was 1( unnecessary at this point and time and 2)doesn't get this team any closer to a title.

KAT is not a stretch 5 cause you just declare it so? The Knicks FO disagrees with you.

KAT offensively is not a slight upgrade over Randle, no sir. KAT is a historically better spacer and shooter than Randle, and that makes everyone else also better offensively, because of that space.

DDV and Deuce overlapped and stood to share the same (limited) leftover minutes behind Mikal. Deuce eats DDV minutes. Shamet, same.

This is the “don’t sign” DDV because we have Grimes, RJ, IQ, Deuce argument but in reverse.

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Rookie wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

martin wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/knicksmuse/status/1840437467209429302

How can anyone hate this trade?

Hold on, yes, I loved Randle and Donte. That three against the Sixers runs rent-free in my mind. I wish them luck in their new situation.

But man! MAN! Remember many seasons ago when we were hoping for a star Point Guard and we finally got our star in Brunson? And his connection to the Knicks was clear since the beginning as a young NY fan?

What about a stretch 5 to truly compete in this era, a very talented and legit 7-footer who has played at his best as a Center and has the shot to rival guards! And the guy was a Knicks fan as a kid as well?! And his reasons to appreciate the franchise even beyond his fan hood are solid. He must be conflicted because he really seems to love Min and who wouldn’t after 9 years, but he is indeed coming home. He now has a chance to get his game to a new level while playing for his childhood team?

I’m very excited about this! Yes, people have questions and I’m glad there are because that means there is potential for better days from him. Just like it was with Brunson, so many doubting him and calling him a bench player and nothing more.

This is such a cool team to represent New York! I’m very excited about what this all could lead to!

The issue I have with the trade is that KAT isn't a center, IMHO. If the trade is Randle/Divo for a legit stretch "5", I can get behind the vision. Randle/Divo for another 4 who isnt substantially better seems like a lateral move, at best.

Would you consider Jokic a good defender? If not, then I guess it would be impossible for Denver to win a chip with him playing center or to make deep playoff runs. I really don’t get the argument. Towns does a lot of things at an elite level but that’s not good enough for you. Maybe you just really wanted to keep the status quo with Randle and Divo. Towns is a VERY good basketball player. Hating on him because maybe he’s not a plus defender is illogical. There’s a video on this thread of Towns bombing 3’s, then further in it details how he gets to the basket. There is so much to like there. It’s such a mute improvement over putting your head down and dribbling into 3 guys guarding the basket. Our floor spacing is going to give teams nightmares. No more 5-10 minute stretches where we can’t score. Our team got better. We upgraded talent. It’s all good. DDV can be replaced. His replacement might even already be on the team. What we really need is a healthy Mitch which isn’t Towns’s fault

Are you suggesting KAT is in the same stratosphere as Jokic? KAT shoots at an elite level. That's not a lot of things. KAT is a flawed star, like many in the league. Heck, Jokic is flawed. But he's still miles ahead of KAT in terms of impact. Yes, I'm hating on Towns because he's not a plus defender. The premise I'm hearing is that KAT is this stretch 5 who will lead the team to the promise land. But, how accurate is that if you can't defend the position full-time. The reason KP works is that he provides elite rim protection. As of now, all I can say is that team traded a borderline All NBA PF and a starting level SG for a borderline All NBA PF. I don't think it moves the needle.

Yes, I am suggesting Towns is in the same stratosphere as Jokic on the defensive end. Are you suggesting Jokic is in the same stratosphere as Towns from 3pt range?

No, but I'm suggesting Jokic is a better player. A way better player. Imma go out of my way and say the words "KAT for MVP have never been uttered. This is like saying DDV is close to Devin Booker because he's a better three point shooter. Jokic functions at such a high level on offense that it more than makes up for his defense. KAT isn't at that level.

Maybe you watched this already, it was posted earlier in this thread but I dunno. Look what Towns brings with his offensive skillset and tell me that this isn’t a great fit for this team.

I'm not arguing KAT is a scrub. My thing is, I don't really see him as center. If he's not a center, then what's the point? Even if you argue he's better than Randle, I'll pushback on anyone who says he Donte and a fake first round pick levels better than Randle. So what if Donte is unhappy. Trade him for a pick it a legit backup center. This move is lateral. We traded a borderline All NBA PF for another borderline All NBA PF. The difference is we're stuck with a borderline All NBA PF making $50M a year. You know what happens if he doesn't workout? The team is stuck with him. He's untradable for the next 3 years. Even if you extend Randle for 3/$40M, Randle and Donte combined still wouldn't take up as much cap space. If you're going to push all your chips in, I'd expect morenthan KAT.

We won 50 games this last season. With this trade I am very comfortable predicting a 56 win season, so yes, I think the trade makes us a better team. We struggled in the playoffs against Miami. Our offense is better now and not as stagnant. I have zero worries we are a better team than Miami with this trade. We barely beat Philly with a hobbled Embiid. This team with Towns is better than the Sixers and Indiana....Cleveland, Orlando and Milwaukee. We will also match up against Boston very well. With this trade, we are a better team so no, this was not a lateral move

I'd say this looked like a 56 win team when Randle, OG, Brunson were all healthy. The team's strength was it's depth and that's taken a hit. Imma say this team as it stands now has taken a step backwards

no our strength was Brunson who was an MVP caliber player. with a great coach and good role players.

Now we have ELITE role players, and a 2nd legit star that COMPLIMENTS Brunson.

We're still a very deep team, especially now with a full season of what we know Deuce is.

Deuce, CAM, Mitch, Precious, Shamet and maybe even Kolek is still one of the best benches in the NBA. And when Mitch is back and we will play bigger at times, then one of the wing starters will play with the bench a good amount of minutes.

Yeah, Cam is still legit.

There is a chance for Shamet to step into the lesser DDV role.

Deuce has shown he deserves starter minutes. As a starter in that one stretch of like 8 games in March, he averaged 40 minutes on Steph like shooting. He stepped up big time in playoffs.

I’ll hang the ass out there and predict Precious gonna surprise us. He was in a very very very limited role last year and asked to do 3 things: rebound, defend, bring energy. He will get more responsibility and chances with a training camp and full year. This kid will have some extra spicy buck wild games IMHO

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:In this case, I'd say that's exactly how it's worked for several years. KAT is bad at drop coverage and instead of fighting it, the Wolves decided to bring in Gobert. KAT is entering year 10 now. It's unlikely that he becomes a defensive center.

Yeah but no one is trying to make that case right? That’s not KAT’s role or expectation.

That’s the assumed starting point of just what he is. No one expecting Brunson to be a 2-way PG, his role is to destroy defenses. Thibs and team will absolutely help Brunson KAT be the best team defenders they can, that’s all you ask for because of their elite offensive abilities.

It’s why the Knicks have and traded for OG Mikal Hart Deuce Mitch. To cover Brunson and the KAT/Randle weaknesses, and also to enhance their strengths.

I don’t start with the assumption that every minutes of a Thibs team has to have elite rim protection. All Thibs talks about is NET rating. It’s clearer to understand FO roster construction after that departure.

Knicks FO are not going for perfect but rather as best as they can within their salary and asset pool.

I've heard quite a few people say this trade was made with the expectation that KAT will be our stretch 5. But, KAT is just bad at it defensively. If he's not a stretch 5, that just makes him a tall 4. Cool. He's a slight upgrade over Randle. But the bench got significantly weaker, the cap is even more mucked up and we still need a center. I'd say this roster is probably a better matchup for Boston now than it was pre-trade. I'd say the same for Philadelphia. This FO has been on quite roll, but they haven't been perfect. Obi, Kemba, Fournier...I think this FO has made a gamble that was 1( unnecessary at this point and time and 2)doesn't get this team any closer to a title.

KAT is not a stretch 5 cause you just declare it so? The Knicks FO disagrees with you.

KAT offensively is not a slight upgrade over Randle, no sir. KAT is a historically better spacer and shooter than Randle, and that makes everyone else also better offensively, because of that space.

DDV and Deuce overlapped and stood to share the same (limited) leftover minutes behind Mikal. Deuce eats DDV minutes. Shamet, same.

This is the “don’t sign” DDV because we have Grimes, RJ, IQ, Deuce argument but in reverse.

As I've stated, the Knicks FO has been wrong before and I'm pretty sure they're wrong this time. There's plenty of data points and anecdotal evidence to back my opinions. If you guys wanna hang your hats on pie in the sky optimism, be my guest. I'm not seeing it right now, but I hope I'm wrong. KAT the past two years has not been significantly better than Randle BTW. And it's been pretty well documented that I'm not the biggest Randle fan. I'll even push back some and say Randle is the better playmaker. DDV is better than McBride and Shamet. That's all that matters. Mcbride is quarter and Smart is a nickel. DDV is .50 cent piece. We can argue about how big a loss DDV is, but there's no escaping the fact that it's a substantial loss. Hopefully McBride make enough of jump where we can forget about Donte.

DDV was replaced by Mikal, not Deuce and Shamet. I don’t know why you making the DDV-Deuce comparison. Those 2 were brought up together cause they both would be competing for the backup minutes and Deuce/Shamet can fill that role, cause it’s the same as last year but now we know what Deuce can do, and it’s better than last year.

DDV is a different player on a different contract than Deuce, which allows other players like Cam and Precious to be on roster under the cap.

ToddTT wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:In this case, I'd say that's exactly how it's worked for several years. KAT is bad at drop coverage and instead of fighting it, the Wolves decided to bring in Gobert. KAT is entering year 10 now. It's unlikely that he becomes a defensive center.

Yeah but no one is trying to make that case right? That’s not KAT’s role or expectation.

That’s the assumed starting point of just what he is. No one expecting Brunson to be a 2-way PG, his role is to destroy defenses. Thibs and team will absolutely help Brunson KAT be the best team defenders they can, that’s all you ask for because of their elite offensive abilities.

It’s why the Knicks have and traded for OG Mikal Hart Deuce Mitch. To cover Brunson and the KAT/Randle weaknesses, and also to enhance their strengths.

I don’t start with the assumption that every minutes of a Thibs team has to have elite rim protection. All Thibs talks about is NET rating. It’s clearer to understand FO roster construction after that departure.

Knicks FO are not going for perfect but rather as best as they can within their salary and asset pool.

I've heard quite a few people say this trade was made with the expectation that KAT will be our stretch 5. But, KAT is just bad at it defensively. If he's not a stretch 5, that just makes him a tall 4. Cool. He's a slight upgrade over Randle. But the bench got significantly weaker, the cap is even more mucked up and we still need a center. I'd say this roster is probably a better matchup for Boston now than it was pre-trade. I'd say the same for Philadelphia. This FO has been on quite roll, but they haven't been perfect. Obi, Kemba, Fournier...I think this FO has made a gamble that was 1( unnecessary at this point and time and 2)doesn't get this team any closer to a title.

KAT is not a stretch 5 cause you just declare it so? The Knicks FO disagrees with you.

KAT offensively is not a slight upgrade over Randle, no sir. KAT is a historically better spacer and shooter than Randle, and that makes everyone else also better offensively, because of that space.

DDV and Deuce overlapped and stood to share the same (limited) leftover minutes behind Mikal. Deuce eats DDV minutes. Shamet, same.

This is the “don’t sign” DDV because we have Grimes, RJ, IQ, Deuce argument but in reverse.

As I've stated, the Knicks FO has been wrong before and I'm pretty sure they're wrong this time. There's plenty of data points and anecdotal evidence to back my opinions. If you guys wanna hang your hats on pie in the sky optimism, be my guest. I'm not seeing it right now, but I hope I'm wrong. KAT the past two years has not been significantly better than Randle BTW. And it's been pretty well documented that I'm not the biggest Randle fan. I'll even push back some and say Randle is the better playmaker. DDV is better than McBride and Shamet. That's all that matters. Mcbride is quarter and Smart is a nickel. DDV is .50 cent piece. We can argue about how big a loss DDV is, but there's no escaping the fact that it's a substantial loss. Hopefully McBride make enough of jump where we can forget about Donte.

Yeah, I'd take January's squad over what we have now. We were already better than the Celtics, who lucked out not facing us.

And any matchup, past or future, I don't count KP or Mitch. I assume neither will play significant minutes, especially late in the season.

I mean, January squad was eliminated when iHart signed in OKC.

Brunson now is better than January Brunson.
Bridges is a better player than DDV
OG now is hopefully better than OG then.

This comes down to two switches:
KAT/jHart vs Randle/iHart. In my head JHart triple doubled numerous times in Randle’s absence. He played that role to a high standard. I loved iHart, but I can’t suggest that KAT won’t beef up the efficiency on shots taken in KAT vs Randle and the jHart won’t pick up the slack on the passing and rebounding and intangibles.

Is it a ridiculous improvement? I think it might be. I think you will see an improvement on offense and defense. I’m a little worried about health, but that’s really my only concern.

There is room to improve, but man this team is well constructed.

VDesai wrote:Kinda missing one bench piece. Can we convince Gordon Hayward to come out of retirement?

Bojan after he takes a buyout from Brooklyn

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BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:In this case, I'd say that's exactly how it's worked for several years. KAT is bad at drop coverage and instead of fighting it, the Wolves decided to bring in Gobert. KAT is entering year 10 now. It's unlikely that he becomes a defensive center.

Yeah but no one is trying to make that case right? That’s not KAT’s role or expectation.

That’s the assumed starting point of just what he is. No one expecting Brunson to be a 2-way PG, his role is to destroy defenses. Thibs and team will absolutely help Brunson KAT be the best team defenders they can, that’s all you ask for because of their elite offensive abilities.

It’s why the Knicks have and traded for OG Mikal Hart Deuce Mitch. To cover Brunson and the KAT/Randle weaknesses, and also to enhance their strengths.

I don’t start with the assumption that every minutes of a Thibs team has to have elite rim protection. All Thibs talks about is NET rating. It’s clearer to understand FO roster construction after that departure.

Knicks FO are not going for perfect but rather as best as they can within their salary and asset pool.

I've heard quite a few people say this trade was made with the expectation that KAT will be our stretch 5. But, KAT is just bad at it defensively. If he's not a stretch 5, that just makes him a tall 4. Cool. He's a slight upgrade over Randle. But the bench got significantly weaker, the cap is even more mucked up and we still need a center. I'd say this roster is probably a better matchup for Boston now than it was pre-trade. I'd say the same for Philadelphia. This FO has been on quite roll, but they haven't been perfect. Obi, Kemba, Fournier...I think this FO has made a gamble that was 1( unnecessary at this point and time and 2)doesn't get this team any closer to a title.

KAT is not a stretch 5 cause you just declare it so? The Knicks FO disagrees with you.

KAT offensively is not a slight upgrade over Randle, no sir. KAT is a historically better spacer and shooter than Randle, and that makes everyone else also better offensively, because of that space.

DDV and Deuce overlapped and stood to share the same (limited) leftover minutes behind Mikal. Deuce eats DDV minutes. Shamet, same.

This is the “don’t sign” DDV because we have Grimes, RJ, IQ, Deuce argument but in reverse.

As I've stated, the Knicks FO has been wrong before and I'm pretty sure they're wrong this time. There's plenty of data points and anecdotal evidence to back my opinions. If you guys wanna hang your hats on pie in the sky optimism, be my guest. I'm not seeing it right now, but I hope I'm wrong. KAT the past two years has not been significantly better than Randle BTW. And it's been pretty well documented that I'm not the biggest Randle fan. I'll even push back some and say Randle is the better playmaker. DDV is better than McBride and Shamet. That's all that matters. Mcbride is quarter and Smart is a nickel. DDV is .50 cent piece. We can argue about how big a loss DDV is, but there's no escaping the fact that it's a substantial loss. Hopefully McBride make enough of jump where we can forget about Donte.

Its not so much optimism as it is the front office having foresight.

If we don't make the move, and the season ends and Randle walks because of $$ like iHart... then what?

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