jskinny35 wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

I'm not sure which category I am in after the 8 game winning streak. Certainly quieter. That said, the antagonism coming from the Pro-Thibs camp makes me keep those specific opinions to myself. I've specifically decided not to respond to avoid the same arguments over and over.

I think this team ends up 12 or 13 in the lottery if I am being honest with myself. Not sure if that is the coach or the players. But I don't really have any better answers either. While I honestly think a new generation coach might be more useful here, I don't think there is a coach I can just point to that would fix this team. I see Nick Nurse struggling with his roster and the fact that we outperform them is probably just the fact that he doesn't have a center. Kerr's team is playing like crap.

I don't feel like this team has an offense. Its ISO ball all the time. Maybe drilling defense and ignoring offense is what the team needs. I dunno.

I'm a seller at the trade deadline. Line up that lotto ticket. In retrospect, those winning streaks may have been more luck than skill with teams missing their key players.

I'll acknowledge my bias as it's all about the iso-ball and I hate it. Regardless of my feelings it's pretty obvious when you run iso-ball with good (but not great) players you usually only get average to good results. Randle going at 1/2 the league he looks terrific unless he's off that night... but what's the point when you know to achieve more he would have to be able to do that against KD, Giannis, Lebron with better defensive teams... and he can't so why not run an offense where our fate doesn't come down to Randle and RJ taking turns offensively. Yes iso has it's place and is needed periodically... doesn't have to be 7 seconds or less type of offense - but if Thibs would just sit RJ and Randle down when they hold the ball and iso too much maybe we could be the best version of whatever this mediocre team can be. As much as I've been tough on Randle the past few years - I'm starting to shift and think more importantly we need a coach that will sit anybody down who plays dumb. We may have to start some games 3 vs 5 but shouldn't last too long.

So honest question. Are you OK with the coach sitting RJ and Randle if it means losing games? Cause that's what happens when you sit players like you are suggesting. This is a huge grey area and when is a good time and when is it not a good time to do so. I hear a lot of voices to fire coaches but not a ton who are OK with losing a game that's within reach while holding a player accountable (the opposite will be cried about - the coach doesn't know how to sub or put in his best players in close games).

After you sit Randle and then Obi messes up at the same level, do you put Randle back in or sit both Randle and Obi? I know it's an extreme, but do you flip those guys on off court when they make mistakes? Does that work?

I think you can sit younger players within the first couple of years, and it's definitely dependent on their "status". Most coaches want/need to play a top 5 pick as much as they can and let get all of their mistakes out of the way (and those mistakes better not appear at the same rate, fine line on how to figure that out).

What's the purpose of sitting Randle outside of getting him mad? And can you sit a guy extensively with someone who has a $25M contract? Not for long IMO unless you have a long term guy like Pop or Spoelstra. And not if you want the best shot at winning games.

For guys on rookie contracts, you have the one thing they need to get their next contract: playing time. It's your only play and you HAVE to be precise about it.

Martin - I am 100% okay with sitting players in efforts to teach or correct bad habits. I think you are suggesting that it's more okay to sit Obi, IQ and other young players due to their age and need for correction - and I do understand this. When I think of Fiz's coaching for K. Knox I felt he was more focused on boosting his confidence vs finding that balance between encouraging and drawing a line when needed. Knox may have ended up a bust either way but I do think a good coach can make a significant difference and change the trajectory of a player. That season I thought Fiz failed miserably.

I think if you hold Randle accountable a few times he would adjust because he likes to be out there playing. I just feel that Thibs doesn't do it anywhere close to enough and this is a part of why Randle makes the same/repeated mistakes over and over. Spinovers, holding the ball too long before passing out of double team, not running back on defense when flustered, playing at 90s half court pace, dribbling instead of moving and cutting... I could go on but the point is he still makes a lot of these same mistakes and I believe a part of it is because he doesn't get taken out to sit and ponder, feel mad, and then adjust when he goes back in.

Last game Randle and Fournier got into it as someone posted - seems like he left that exchange mad/annoyed at Fournier. Holding one another accountable is team sports and while a MJ or J. Butler may take it too far at times - we don't really have enough of that IMO. Brunson helps for sure.

I get he is a veteran but think it's worse to let your vet/team leader get a pass while most of the younger and more influential players don't (or as much). I think RJ needs this as well. As for what to do when Randle and Obi mess up - I think it's mostly about what is trying to be taught. When the effort is there I think that earns you some leeway (eg take a bad shot, space on a rotation). What does it say when he pulls Obi so quickly but Randle seems to get a pass for multiple errors simply because he's better?

The purpose of sitting him is to get him to realize he has bad habits (as most players do) that negatively impact the team and often the outcome. He should have been taught this early on but to be fair - he always played a lesser/supportive role before coming here. So it needed to happen when he arrived but we didn't have Thibs at first. We leave Randle to his own devices we should expect to see what we've seen in the past - a very good player that loses it sometimes, shoots inconsistently and thinks he is the star of NBA Jam 1996 edition. Lay in to him a few times and he sinks or he swims. What's the alternative - we can't coach or get on anybody? I get this is a different generation then you or myself grew up on - but the better teams still hold their players accountable in some form. In fact the best players often demand to be held accountable.

Coach talking to him about trusting his teammates that he will receive the ball back is critical as he dribbles way too much while solid players like Grimes sit at the 3pt line waiting until there is 3-4 seconds on the shot clock left for the kickout. How about Brunson dribbles, set the spacing and Randle still gets his touches. Best half I have ever seen was last year when we lost in LA - 1st half Randle moved the ball, hustled consistently and played uptempo. That should be the standard we try to achieve as it brings out the best in us and hides many of our limitations.

I'm in pretty much agreement with everything you've said.

Are you OK with more losing if that's what it takes? I don't want infer anything you've not said directly.

You and I both know the answer to that for the other 95% of Knicks fans: it's a hard NO, right? The reality of what most fans go thru is that the coach - and perhaps any coach - is immediately on the hot seat if there is a really bad loss? Is that reality or not so much?

I think it's kinda stupid that Obi only got 10 minutes last game. But I also wanted to win the game and Randle is clearly the better player to get you to that point. Obi was having an incredible distance shooting night; dude also had 1 rebound in 11 minutes and that was the Knicks' weakest part of their game while Randle was beasting in rebounds the whole game while having 8 assists and lots of points.

So here is the scenario: At the beginning of the 4th the game was tied, Obi enters game and Toronto goes on an 11-0 run over the first 3.5 minutes of 4th.... and all the caveats that maybe this is not Obi's fault but it happens at the same time he comes in. I don't recall exactly what happened at beginning of 4th but it seemed to be TOR dominating on the glass with their bigs getting baskets: https://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay/_/gameId/401468855

Gameflow: http://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20230122&game=NYKTOR

As a coach, do you let it ride or put your best players back in and try to right the ship?

The Knicks got the worst of both worlds. Brunson and then Randle come in and, give or take, Toronto goes on another 11-2 run.

If you let it ride and Toronto goes on a 20-0 run, everyone is yelling at the coach cause why didn't he put in his best players again?

Not good decisions all around.

Yes - absolutely because it feels like we cheated and bypassed a few steps during the process. Happy to regress as it gives us a chance to take one step back to eventually go a few steps forward.

I do understand and agree that much of the fanbase would likely not agree with this. I would argue to them it needs to happen otherwise we will continue to endlessly complain about the state we are in right now (even after players are traded). I understand why Thibs would revert back to Randle - especially if they went on that run in with Obi in at the beginning of the 4th. The argument could be made that Obi should have received some minutes in the 3rd and maybe we are looking at a different flow by the time we get to the 4th. So many variables that maybe it doesn't always work the way it seems it should... Yet when you have a guy who just hit 4 3pters get pulled it does make you scratch your head a bit. I would think most coaches would ride that when it happens - at least until the player cools off. We have a roster of mostly one way players that excel in some areas and are equally and painfully deficient in others - so it is challenging to coach and sort out minutes with that type of roster. I know we've talked RJ vs Randle for the better part of the pandemic but at this point I think it's fair to conclude that they are not working out as starters together.

I think RJ to the bench could help if Thibs would consider playing Cam or any wing with some length (eg via trade). Brunson and Grimes are our best bet and complementary in the backcourt. An upgrade to either RJ and/or Randle would be ideal but let's assume we can't upgrade. I realize it won't happen but at the moment Cam would offer us the best option at the 3. With Thibs here we should assume Randle stays at the 4, Mitch at the 5. So if Cam is headed out maybe a Gary Trent Jr if we go cheap (Bullock cheapest) or go all in for OG so he can start at the 3. Love RJ but Grimes just seems to work better if Randle is on the court. If we can deal more picks and D. Rose, Cam, Hartenstein - we could retain our previous strength of having an amazing bench.

Super bench is back with IQ, Toppin, RJ, Fournier, Sims. Deuce in spot minutes as needed.

You know what I'd tack on to what you've said: It's almost unfortunate that the Knicks over performed in the way they did in 2020-21. It was great for fanbase but it derailed the team for at least a year and maybe more.

But who knows, you wouldn't also get the peak play of Randle.

Philc1 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:Bring back Fizdale, Lebron might become available again. Kidding.

Other day i was trying to figure out who was the more horrific head coach? Fizz or Rambis?

And then you got distracted by a shiny thing or the neighbors cat and gave up?
Or do you just roll with the “Woodson” thing and need a nap?

But you tried.

I’d like you to try to make sense

Other day i was trying to figure out who was the more horrific head coach? Fizz or Rambis?

Did you ever figure it out?
Not the sarcasm directed to you as an insult, but who was a worse coach?

Lowrey looks like Paul Pierces bloated shorter brother.

gradyandrew wrote:

Nalod wrote:Brunson ball handleing was missed in crunch time when miami doubled the ball. RJ made some blunder errant passes but also made some great plays down the stretch. The pennetration dribbling then the pass that led to the pass. Randle too had some nice ball movement. Knicks did break it enough to win the game. Miami is very good defensive team. The defended the 3 well and gave us the paint. We executed well. It was intense but knicks held on and won!
RJ, Randle and EF passed very effective last night. Good looks and execution by Deuce and Grimes was the difference. Randle looked comfortable in the crunch.

Lowrey looks like Paul Pierces bloated shorter brother.

Yeah man. I thought EF played really well too. His shot was pretty rusty but I think he showed a lot of little things. I hope this is the beginning of him making the way back into the rotation. That rebkind assist to Obi was sick.

Not me.

Not only 1/7 shooting but his Defense was absolutely, atrocious (as always).

Imo it'll become criminal to ever give Evan Fournier minutes again (any type of minutes) while steaming playing time away from the likes of R.J./Grimes/Quickley/Deuce.

I honestly can't wait until he's traded away because his atrocious Defense alone is a team killer.

Hey to each our own but I personally don't understand some of our Knicks fans who wanna run Coach Thibs out of town (before firing him) during only his 3rd year as Head Coach here in NYC.

And for the fans who used to claim he refuses to play younger kids etc have now became the same group of fans who can no longer make those statements; and that's because the likes of R.J. Barrett (22), Quentin Grimes (22), Deuce McBride (22), Immanuel Quickley (23), Obi Toppin (24), Jericho Sims (24), Mitchell Robinson (24) and Isaiah Hartenstein (24) are all younger players (all under 24 years of age) and heck even Jalen Brunson's only 26 years of age; and they're all getting playing time opportunities under this man.

Not only that.

But we're on the verge of making the Playoffs 2x under Coach Thibs throughout only 3 years (2/3) when in comparison to missing the Playoffs 15 out of 19 years (before Coach Thibs) dating back to 2001 throughout 2019 (4/19).

Etc.

This man is one of only 10 NBA Coaches (All-Time) to win multiple Coach of the Year awards and 1 of only 3 Knicks Coaches to (ever) win the award.

Etc.

Also...

David Fizdale = 21-83 (.202%).
Larry Brown = 23-59 (.280%).
Derek Fisher = 40-96 (.294%).
Kurt Rambis = 9-19 (.321%).
Isiah Thomas = 56-108 (.341%).
Jeff Hornacek = 60-104 (.366%).
Herb Williams = 17-27 (.386%).
Mike Miller = 17-27 (.386%).
Don Chaney = 72-112 (.391%).
Mike D'Antoni = 121-167 (.420%).
Lenny Wilkens = 40-41 (.494%).

Vs.

Tom Thibodeau = 106-101 (.512%).

I personally love Coach Thibs (who grew up as a diehard NY Knicks fan throughout his childhood days) and maybe I'm just a little, different? And maybe it's because I'm not willing to forget where I come from (as a fan) and that's because (imo) he's not only the most accomplished Head Coach that we've had since dating back to Pat Riley and Jeff Van Gundy (throughout the previous 30+ years) but he's finally an HC who not only demands respect from our players (respected around the league) but also an HC who our players play extremely hard for.

(and all of this, means something to me; it means a lot to me).

Sorry for the long winded post but I really dislike this thread title of "FIRE THIBS" and it's because I'm extremely excited for an opportunity to watch NYC Playoffs Basketball (2/3 years) and anxious to see the likes of...

A.) Mitchell Robinson come postseason play under Coach Thibs (missed the ATL series because of injury).

B.) All 4 of R.J. Barrett, Immanuel Quickley, Obi Toppin and especially Julius Randle (all) having an opportunity to redeem themselves come postseason play under Coach Thibs (ATL).

C.) Jalen Brunson having an opportunity to explode during the Playoffs under Coach Thibs (as he did for Dallas).

D.) For kids such as Quentin Grimes and Deuce McBride to have an opportunity alongside of Coach Thibs (come postseason play) in order to become two of his most trusted talents (moving forward) within his rotation.

I don't want to see Coach Thibs fired; if anything I'd love to see our Front Office continue to build a true Eastern Conference Contender around him (similar to how Chicago did before prime D-Rose injuries).

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1625524347094835200

martin wrote:I don't how this is possible but there it is. It ain't pretty but it appears to be working and working very well.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1625524347094835200

Nobody is gonna be perfect, but this is a well coached team and this organization has good culture.

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:I don't how this is possible but there it is. It ain't pretty but it appears to be working and working very well.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1625524347094835200

Thibs has literally answered every knock from overplaying guys, doesnt use analytics, doesnt value the 3, doesnt play young guys.

Nobody is gonna be perfect, but this is a well coached team and this organization has good culture.

He's 100% evolved (especially on Offense).

I've always been a big time believer in Coach Thibs because A.) I appreciate him for turning around our NYC culture. B.) Bringing this Franchise out of darkness and C.) Loved him in Chicago.

A.) These kids play their hearts out under this guy.

B.) Prior to Thibs we made the Playoffs only 4x throughout 19 years (4-15) vs. Being on the verge of making the Playoffs 2 out of 3 years (2-1).

C.) Led his Bulls to the Playoffs all 5 years in Chicago and can anyone blame him for 3 Playoff Eliminations vs. 3 (PRIME) LeBron James led Super Teams (2x vs. D-Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen and LeBron James of Miami and 1x vs. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and LeBron James of Cleveland)?

Tom Thibs in Chicago was the Pat Riley of NY (because neither one could eliminate Jordan/LeBron).

As far as our Knicks are concerned? I'm just not used to watching an Offense ranked 6th in Offensive Rating (2nd time since dating back to 1990 of 33 years ago that we've ever ranked Top-6 in Offensive Rating) and also our Offensive IQ, to be this young; is amazing (Ranked 2nd best in Turnover Percentage).

I hope this man is here for the next 5+ years because he's truly building something special here in N.Y alongside of Leon Rose.

He's never been married. Doesn't even have any children

My heart would break for this man if we ever "fired him" because he's dedicated and still dedicating his entire life to the game of basketball (these players are his children he never had any our Knicks are who he's married to).

We suffered as a Fan Base for 15/19 years of no Playoffs (before Thibs arrival) with 12 different coaches who combined for a losing record of 592-886 overall.

Vs.

In comparison to being on the verge of making the Playoffs 2/3 years (under Thibs) with a WINNING RECORD.

I'm convinced.

Coach Thibs is the man to lead our Franchise to the promise land (alongside of Jalen Brunson + Julius Randle + continuing the development of our homegrown youth).

Because he was scratching the surface in Chicago. 5 Years with the Bulls along with 5 consecutive Playoff appearances (2 Semi-Finals + 1 ECF) and I'll be hard pressed to blame the guy for his Chicago rosters being eliminated 3x by LeBron James led SUPER-TEAMS (2x vs. Miami and 1x vs. Cleveland).

I believe in this man.

Nalod wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:I don't how this is possible but there it is. It ain't pretty but it appears to be working and working very well.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1625524347094835200

Thibs has literally answered every knock from overplaying guys, doesnt use analytics, doesnt value the 3, doesnt play young guys.

Nobody is gonna be perfect, but this is a well coached team and this organization has good culture.

He's 100% evolved (especially on Offense).

I've always been a big time believer in Coach Thibs because A.) I appreciate him for turning around our NYC culture. B.) Bringing this Franchise out of darkness and C.) Loved him in Chicago.

A.) These kids play their hearts out under this guy.

B.) Prior to Thibs we made the Playoffs only 4x throughout 19 years (4-15) vs. Being on the verge of making the Playoffs 2 out of 3 years (2-1).

C.) Led his Bulls to the Playoffs all 5 years in Chicago and can anyone blame him for 3 Playoff Eliminations vs. 3 (PRIME) LeBron James led Super Teams (2x vs. D-Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen and LeBron James of Miami and 1x vs. Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and LeBron James of Cleveland)?

Tom Thibs in Chicago was the Pat Riley of NY (because neither one could eliminate Jordan/LeBron).

As far as our Knicks are concerned? I'm just not used to watching an Offense ranked 6th in Offensive Rating (2nd time since dating back to 1990 of 33 years ago that we've ever ranked Top-6 in Offensive Rating) and also our Offensive IQ, to be this young; is amazing (Ranked 2nd best in Turnover Percentage).

I hope this man is here for the next 5+ years because he's truly building something special here in N.Y alongside of Leon Rose.

He's never been married. Doesn't even have any children

My heart would break for this man if we ever "fired him" because he's dedicated and still dedicating his entire life to the game of basketball (these players are his children he never had any our Knicks are who he's married to).

He is a basketball Priest.