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Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?
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misterearl
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8/7/2007  10:52 AM
Who Wrote The Book Of Love?

bippity - who said the Knicks blueprint was the Phoenix Suns?

...and who said the Knicks were restricted to only halfcourt sets?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-07-2007 10:53 AM]
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martin
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8/7/2007  11:04 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Who Wrote The Book Of Love?

bippity - who said the Knicks blueprint was the Phoenix Suns?

...and who said the Knicks were restricted to only halfcourt sets?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-07-2007 10:53 AM]

Isiah did just last summer.

Figuring out the team identity is still part of the problem for these Knicks. I like the upgrade of Z-Bo but I still can't see how he fits with Curry.
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Panos
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8/7/2007  11:06 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Who Wrote The Book Of Love?

1. bippity - who said the Knicks blueprint was the Phoenix Suns?

2. ...and who said the Knicks were restricted to only halfcourt sets?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-07-2007 10:53 AM]

1. Uh, Isiah did.

2. Restricted? What the hell does that mean? Isiah definitely said that now we are a half court power team.
misterearl
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8/7/2007  11:12 AM
Martin - the Phoenix Suns? ...and you believed him? Bwaahahaha!

I can't believe you still put your faith in that smarmy, lyin' SOB, Hall of Fame point guard. Haven't you learned anything in three years? Isiah can change direction faster than Nate Archibald with his shorts on fire. Isiah is an improviser of the highest order. Just as he was as a basketball player. He looks for openings and exploits them.

One day Tim and Kurt Thomas is an answer. The next, Zach Randolph and Eddy Curry.

Half court power team my butt.

just win baby
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nixluva
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8/7/2007  11:20 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

You want to know what I was wondering. With the addition of Curry and Zach and us being a halfcourt team now, whatever happen to the plan of turning us into Phoenix East? Man, that only lasted about 5 months.

You know I touched on this last summer and to be honest, Isiah never really said we'd be a running team like PHX. His offense which he's had since his days in Indy, isn't a pure running offense. He merely meant that the team would look to feature more quick hitting plays and be more opportunistic about running. He wanted the pace to pick up in terms of getting the ball upcourt and getting into their sets early. In fact he felt that their plays really started before they even got to the halfcourt.

This excerpt I transcribed from a TV interview with Gus and Clyde:
http://www.msgnetwork.com/knicks_summerleague.jsp

Gus explained that Isiah told him the offense employs parts of these 3 offenses, the UCLA High Post Shuffle Cut, Bob Knights passing game and Tex Winters Triangle offense. It wasn't presented as this team would run any of these concepts exclusively or even in their purest form.

This is a paraphrase of what Isiah said:

"Its a full court offense not a half court offense. It starts from the moment the ball is rebounded. Players will be on the move and already starting the play before they reach halfcourt. We'll run some two guard fronts and bring the low post up to the mid post, splits out of the high post, 2-1-2 sets. We'll teach them how to make shots off of splits, distort the court on angles, hit, split, screen and cut, speed up the offense. Good offense will beat good defense. We'll play at a higher tempo and plan to use 10 players every night to keep people fresh."

He said a lot in this interview. For one thing even tho he said it's not a halfcourt offense, in essence the principles it's based on are indeed halfcourt sets. He just added the component of actually wanting to start running them earlier. So they weren't ever going to play like PHX, who look to run even off of made baskets. But he did expect that the offense would have to ability to be quick hitting if run right, which we saw it wasn't many times.

Now when we have more of our quick and athletic players in the game, guys who play better D and thus get more opportunities to run, then you'll see more fastbreaks. This is why there was so much running in last year's preseason and Summer League. Once you go with the starters those guys are clearly halfcourt players.

From my vantage point, they were only partly sucessful in running his offense. I think Steph got better as the season went along, but it's clear that Isiah made some concessions with his playbook and what he felt the team could actually do.

At another time Isiah also said this about how the team would play offense and defense:

http://www.nba.com/knicks/inthepaint/isiah_060710.html

NEW YORK, July 8, 2006-- Stylistically, the Knicks are going to be a different team under Isiah Thomas. At times that might include playing at a faster pace, but according to the Knicks President and new mentor the changes are really going to amount to more than that.
“We want to be efficient,” said Thomas. ”On both ends of the floor, offensively and defensively. We are not so much interested in pace as we are in being efficient. We want to be good on both sides of the ball. We want good execution so when we’re going to call a play we go out and do it -- and if we don’t do it there is a penalty for that. We want to be able to execute defensively. So if our defense is able to get us out into some kind of transition to move the basketball up court in a quicker fashion, we will do that.”

“We are not looking to create pace. We are looking to become a good basketball team again on both sides of the ball.”

“I wouldn’t say we don’t have defenders,” said Thomas. “I would say that we have to give them a scheme that they feel comfortable in playing defense. I’m not going to let the players off the hook by saying ’hey, you are not a good defender’. I’m from Indiana University where I played under Bob Knight. I played in Detroit where we started James Edwards at center and Bill Laimbeer at power forward -- and they became good defenders. So we are going to be better on defense. And the guys are not going to get a free pass. Players will decide their own playing time. And to play, you’ve got to defend.”

“The guys we have, we’ll make them better,” said Thomas. “We’ve got a job to do. I do like our guys. My job now is to get their confidence back. I believe that they can perform at a higher level than they did last year.”
Bippity10
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8/7/2007  11:30 AM
“I wouldn’t say we don’t have defenders,” said Thomas. “I would say that we have to give them a scheme that they feel comfortable in playing defense. I’m not going to let the players off the hook by saying ’hey, you are not a good defender’. I’m from Indiana University where I played under Bob Knight. I played in Detroit where we started James Edwards at center and Bill Laimbeer at power forward -- and they became good defenders. So we are going to be better on defense. And the guys are not going to get a free pass. Players will decide their own playing time. And to play, you’ve got to defend.”

Wow, that's funny because when I say the same thing I'm considered a hater.
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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  11:34 AM
I'm glad you posted that Nixluva because that just shows the disconnect between fans and the team. Some fans talked of Phoenix East last summer. Some fans said we should be a halfcourt team because we will turn the ball over. Other fans said it should be 50/50. We will be a good team when fans are no longer talking about what type of system we should run, but when it's 100% clear what type of offense and defense we should run. Until we establish an identity and stop turning over the roster, it's difficult to win. What I say is not rocket science.
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misterearl
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8/7/2007  11:42 AM
nixluva - you are indeed Jedi.

The quotes from Isiah Thomas are an excellent summary of his coaching philosophy. All the assuptions about the precise words he preaches to his players in practice (yeah, I'm talkin' 'bout practice) or during timeout huddles during a game are only idle speculation and random guesswork.

Team "identity" "?

The Knicks don't need no steekin' "team identity". Let people assume these are the same Knicks that David Letterman uses for late night material. Let them laugh and think of New York as a easy win. Let the chicken liver-hearts run for cover in November at the first sign of trouble or a three game losing streak that certifies the sky is falling and all is lost.

just win baby

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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  11:45 AM
Posted by misterearl:

nixluva - you are indeed Jedi.

The quotes from Isiah Thomas are an excellent summary of his coaching philosophy. All the assuptions about the precise words he preaches to his players in practice (yeah, I'm talkin' 'bout practice) or during timeout huddles during a game are only idle speculation and random guesswork.

Team "identity" "?

The Knicks don't need no steekin' "team identity". Let people assume these are the same Knicks that David Letterman uses for late night material. Let them laugh and think of New York as a easy win. Let the chicken liver-hearts run for cover in November at the first sign of trouble or a three game losing streak that certifies the sky is falling and all is lost.

just win baby

preaching is meaningless until it shows itself on the court. Isiah can preach, and preach and preach but until he gets a roster to implement these preachings it is meaningless. It is just talk. As meaningless as us talking about what they should be doing. I'm positive that Isiah preached defense and limiting the turnovers last year. Yet somehow we still were at the bottom of the league. I know we all love the players with a passion. But at some point you have to have players that you don't have to preach to, but players that actually do it the first time. Some are on the roster today, and those that aren't are not helping us no matter how much we preach.
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misterearl
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8/7/2007  11:53 AM
"So we are going to be better on defense. And the guys are not going to get a free pass. Players will decide their own playing time. And to play, you’ve got to defend.”


bipp - of course its just talk homes. It's August and the gym at Purchase is officially off-limits to organized practices and cats are scattered around the country for another two months.



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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  11:57 AM
I'd agree with you but we've been hearing the same talk since 1999. We hear a lot about what should happen and what will happen and very little of it happens. I will say we are younger and more exciting though.
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Panos
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8/7/2007  12:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Martin - the Phoenix Suns? ...and you believed him? Bwaahahaha!

I can't believe you still put your faith in that smarmy, lyin' SOB, Hall of Fame point guard. Haven't you learned anything in three years? Isiah can change direction faster than Nate Archibald with his shorts on fire. Isiah is an improviser of the highest order. Just as he was as a basketball player. He looks for openings and exploits them.

One day Tim and Kurt Thomas is an answer. The next, Zach Randolph and Eddy Curry.

Half court power team my butt.

just win baby


And who do you think he is exploiting with his BS, my friend?
You. Me. The fans. That's all. Cause he certainly is not exploiting
the other teams in the NBA. He's exploiting the people who pay to see
this team. Feeds us BS to keep us coming back, while the team
continues to underachieve.
Bippity10
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8/7/2007  12:18 PM
I repeat, when you look at this roster you see Zach 20 and 10, Marbs career 20 and 8, Curry unstoppable force inside, Craw unstoppable one on one, Q one of the best rebounding SF/SG in the league, DLee one of the NBA's best rebounders, Balkman a terror etc, etc. You have talent galore on this roster. A playoff spot should be a given. This team is capable of being one of the best in the EAst. Last seasons team was capable of being a playoff team despite the injuries. But somehow this team isn't. Why does this happen? It's not talent.

Talk ends. Excuses must end. It's time to show results on the floor.
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holfresh
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8/7/2007  12:19 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by misterearl:

Who Wrote The Book Of Love?
bippity - who said the Knicks blueprint was the Phoenix Suns?

...and who said the Knicks were restricted to only halfcourt sets?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-07-2007 10:53 AM]

Isiah did just last summer.

Figuring out the team identity is still part of the problem for these Knicks. I like the upgrade of Z-Bo but I still can't see how he fits with Curry.

I could be wrong but I never recalled Isiah saying the Knicks style of play was going to be like that of the Phoenix Suns...What I do recall him saying is the offense will be a combination of three styles...High post offense, Tex Winter's triangle and some aspect of the Princeton offense...Think Bobby Knight's name was thrown in there as well...I think when someone says we will play uptempo, immediately people assume it will be like the Suns because of their success...

Bippity10
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8/7/2007  12:24 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by martin:
Posted by misterearl:

Who Wrote The Book Of Love?
bippity - who said the Knicks blueprint was the Phoenix Suns?

...and who said the Knicks were restricted to only halfcourt sets?

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-07-2007 10:53 AM]

Isiah did just last summer.

Figuring out the team identity is still part of the problem for these Knicks. I like the upgrade of Z-Bo but I still can't see how he fits with Curry.

I could be wrong but I never recalled Isiah saying the Knicks style of play was going to be like that of the Phoenix Suns...What I do recall him saying is the offense will be a combination of three styles...High post offense, Tex Winter's triangle and some aspect of the Princeton offense...Think Bobby Knight's name was thrown in there as well...I think when someone says we will play uptempo, immediately people assume it will be like the Suns because of their success...


Despite what the fans thought, the offense still changed last year and will change once again this year.
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misterearl
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8/7/2007  12:29 PM
Panos - if you feel like you're being exploited then why do you continue to participate with, or support, such a shady enterprise?
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nixluva
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8/7/2007  12:31 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I'm glad you posted that Nixluva because that just shows the disconnect between fans and the team. Some fans talked of Phoenix East last summer. Some fans said we should be a halfcourt team because we will turn the ball over. Other fans said it should be 50/50. We will be a good team when fans are no longer talking about what type of system we should run, but when it's 100% clear what type of offense and defense we should run. Until we establish an identity and stop turning over the roster, it's difficult to win. What I say is not rocket science.

I agree, it doesn't really matter at this point. We just need to play winning ball period. I do feel tho, that there's a growing sense of understanding on this team. I think the players aren't confused anymore. Before you could tell that they didn't know what the team's identity was. What the focus should be or how to run the system. I don't feel that way now. Even our rooks and returning young players looked like they got it in Summer League. They all played as a team and Balk and Nate lead the way. They defended and shared the ball. Those guys are our future right there. I would feel more confident if we got rid of some of these vets and allowed these kids to get in there and learn. We might not win as many games this year, but who cares. Balk, Chan, DNic and Morris defended and we need that kind of spirit on this team.

I was watching the 1994 Knicks Bulls playoff game where the Bulls won on a last 2nd 3 by Kukoc and I was amazed at the level of defense we used to play. Of course I saw it with my own eyes back then, but seeing it again after watching this team play, you could see the difference in effort level and so forth. It was so stark that it really messed with my head. We're so far removed from that level of intensity. Now mind you they were allowed to be much more physical. Mason and Oak in particular. Still you could see the feet moving and guys fighting over screens. Starks was a BEAST out there. For all of his faults, the guy was busting it on D. Anyway, this team just isn't made up of guys like that, so I'm not expecting that they'll be that way, but we surely can play much harder than we have and i'm going to be particularly hard on them this year in that regard. I want this team to hold teams to under a 100 this year. I think that's a reasonable standard.

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8/7/2007  12:36 PM
Posted by nixluva:

[I was watching the 1994 Knicks Bulls playoff game where the Bulls won on a last 2nd 3 by Kukoc and I was amazed at the level of defense we used to play.

wasn’t that the play where pippen wouldn’t report back in because the play wasn’t drawn up for him, and cartright went apes**t on him in the locker room afterwards?
misterearl
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8/7/2007  12:41 PM
>>I'd agree with you but we've been hearing the same talk since 1999. We hear a lot about what should happen and what will happen and very little of it happens. I will say we are younger and more exciting though.

bipp - me thinketh thou mayeth exaggerateth too much towards the negative.

C'mon, in 1999 everyone was high fivin' over making The NBA Finals. How it would have worked out if Houston's shot bounces out and Van Gundy is fired... no one knows...it was a totally different front office and coaching staff.

The "Isiah Watch" is entering year three. Not year seven.

bipp- although you feel hoodwinked, set-upon, bamboozled and run-amuck for the years since Patrick Ewing (1999-2006)... the evidence of the 2007 season absolutely, positively cannot be pre-judged with the random speculation of early August before the roster receives its "hello my name is" lapel stickers.

if the recent history is so discouraging, why watch?
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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  12:47 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Bippity10:

I'm glad you posted that Nixluva because that just shows the disconnect between fans and the team. Some fans talked of Phoenix East last summer. Some fans said we should be a halfcourt team because we will turn the ball over. Other fans said it should be 50/50. We will be a good team when fans are no longer talking about what type of system we should run, but when it's 100% clear what type of offense and defense we should run. Until we establish an identity and stop turning over the roster, it's difficult to win. What I say is not rocket science.

I agree, it doesn't really matter at this point. We just need to play winning ball period. I do feel tho, that there's a growing sense of understanding on this team. I think the players aren't confused anymore. Before you could tell that they didn't know what the team's identity was. What the focus should be or how to run the system. I don't feel that way now. Even our rooks and returning young players looked like they got it in Summer League. They all played as a team and Balk and Nate lead the way. They defended and shared the ball. Those guys are our future right there. I would feel more confident if we got rid of some of these vets and allowed these kids to get in there and learn. We might not win as many games this year, but who cares. Balk, Chan, DNic and Morris defended and we need that kind of spirit on this team.

I was watching the 1994 Knicks Bulls playoff game where the Bulls won on a last 2nd 3 by Kukoc and I was amazed at the level of defense we used to play. Of course I saw it with my own eyes back then, but seeing it again after watching this team play, you could see the difference in effort level and so forth. It was so stark that it really messed with my head. We're so far removed from that level of intensity. Now mind you they were allowed to be much more physical. Mason and Oak in particular. Still you could see the feet moving and guys fighting over screens. Starks was a BEAST out there. For all of his faults, the guy was busting it on D. Anyway, this team just isn't made up of guys like that, so I'm not expecting that they'll be that way, but we surely can play much harder than we have and i'm going to be particularly hard on them this year in that regard. I want this team to hold teams to under a 100 this year. I think that's a reasonable standard.

I do think the players on the summer league got it and that is a definite good sign. What we need though is for the vets who will be getting the majority of the minutes to get it as well. If we want to improve fast guys like Marbs and Zach and Eddie and Jamal must show their dedication to team defense and and offense. IF they falter and leadership is not shown in these areas than you will see our team start to fall back into the rut that "leadershp" led us to during the LB season. To take the next step this must be the case. This is why fans were so adamant and angry about the TT era and the Francis trade. Zeke never seemed to target players that got it. And he had no leaders to show the way. We can't have that happen again.

As for the style of play. What the fans think about the style of play is irrelevant. Isiah sets the style of play. But when the fans are confused as to what the style of play is than that's probably the symptom of a true problem. Now with the two big guys there should be no confusion. We should be a halfcourt pound it inside team when they are on the floor. Every future acquisition should reflect this. A guy like Franchise would not fit this system so we should not be subjected to trades lke that. If Isiah makes a poor acquisition let it be a guy that fits the system but just didn't work out. The style is set so there should be no more confusion about the type of players we need. If this is the plan, stick to it. Every move should follow this plan. No more "huh?" moves. If Curry and Zach can't work together trade one, but stick to the plan with a different player. Let's try not to start over with a new core and a new system every 5 months, which leads to this confusion.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 07-08-2007 1:04 PM]
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Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?

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