[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

O.T. War in the middle East...
Author Thread
TemujinKnick
Posts: 20771
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/3/2005
Member: #1022

7/30/2006  1:39 AM
Killa you've already been utterly outclased by most of the posts countering your views here. One question I have for you: What nations in the world aren't based on some form of ethnic/religious grouping? For most of history the very idea of a nation is a group of mostly homogenous people which share a deep familial/tribal/ethnic/religious bond. In that history Israel is a bit of a hybrid between a traditional nation based on a specific national identity, and a much more modern nation (some would say empire) which is deeply multicultural, multiethnic, and polyglot. Modern examples of those nations-as-empires would be the US, China, Britian, etc. In parading out your garbage claim that having a nation based on a ethnic/religious national identity as being by definition racist it just shows how ignorant you are in what the definitions of racist or of nationhood actually are.
AUTOADVERT
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 7/14/2004
Member: #704
7/30/2006  10:37 AM
Killa, you are more or less right. I'm amazed at the patience you've showed with a lot of the personal shots that have been taken against you. In any event, you should disregard the shots taken at you. A quick word of advice, however, - I understand the analogies you are making but, at times, the context (Nazi Germany) is too jarring to convey the message.

I hope every poster here can define clearly what moral principle they use to judge events like these. And be able to justify that value. If you are going to attempt to quote history as a testament of a solution, make sure its strongly empirically relevant to the current situation.

The absurdity of some of the posts on this thread is unbearable - some people actually appear to be advocating a Hobbesian solution to this mess.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
7/30/2006  12:34 PM
I use very simple "moral principles". I beleive that Israel belongs to my people (Jews). Everybody else is welcome to be there as long as they recognize that fact. If you don't agree with me, you are within your rights. You can fight a war for example, or shoot rockets at me, or suicide bomb me. But then don't be suprised when I retaliate and kill you, and possibly some of your family as collateral, if you hide behind them.

I understand perfectly how Hizbollah fighters feel, I respect them as my enemies. Do I dispise them? Ofcorse, mostly because of the tactics they use. But what other tactics are open to them? They are week, so they do what they can, attack civillians. And then they hide behind their own. And to that I say, fine, if thats the way you want it, thats the way you'll get it.

I don't claime to have some kind of moral high ground, I just claim I'm right. My claim to Israel is easily disputed, and is for the most part an opinion. So is anybody elses. However my people have frought four wars and won them handily. We had help from US, but Arabs had help from the Soviet Union, so spare me the "it was not a fare firght cause US supported you" crap.

Now you can seat there and claim that there is a peacefull solution, all Jews have to do is go back to the pre 1967 borders, but you simply dilusional or idealistic. The majority of muslims do not recognize the stat of Israel at all, pre 1967 borders ot not. What they want is somethign complelty impossible to me, as Jew. They want me and the millions of Jews in Israel gone, not neccesarly dead, but gone. To that I can't agree.

Hence I do not see any reason to negoitate partial solutions when in the end, every period of peace is temporary. Why give back and land when it clearly does not bring back any peace? If you want come and try to get it. If you get the crap beaten out of you, don't go runnin to UN for sanctions. Its not the Jews fault Arabs can't fight wars. The last good general they had was Saladin.

Just ask yourself, if muslims had the power the West has today, would there be any non-muslim entities out there?
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
TemujinKnick
Posts: 20771
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/3/2005
Member: #1022

7/30/2006  12:59 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

some people actually appear to be advocating a Hobbesian solution to this mess.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. In fact I would say the only proper way of looking at this mess is from a Hobbesian point of view. Locke only applies within consensual frameworks. Foreign policy and war involving rogue states and non-state guerilla and terrorist forces cannot be dealt with through Lockean diplomacy. What happens when reality is screaming Hobbes and you refuse to listen? The civilized world of Locke is killed by murderous thugs of one type (Nazis) or another (Islamists). No one here is suggesting that the liberal democratic relatively free world give up on it's most cherished ideals. Only recognize the limits of such ideals and that there comes a time when you need to be willing to fight by the laws of the jungle (Hobbes) to defend all that is good about the West and East.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 7/14/2004
Member: #704
7/30/2006  1:42 PM
Posted by simrud:

I use very simple "moral principles". I beleive that Israel belongs to my people (Jews). Everybody else is welcome to be there as long as they recognize that fact. If you don't agree with me, you are within your rights. You can fight a war for example, or shoot rockets at me, or suicide bomb me. But then don't be suprised when I retaliate and kill you, and possibly some of your family as collateral, if you hide behind them.

I understand perfectly how Hizbollah fighters feel, I respect them as my enemies. Do I dispise them? Ofcorse, mostly because of the tactics they use. But what other tactics are open to them? They are week, so they do what they can, attack civillians. And then they hide behind their own. And to that I say, fine, if thats the way you want it, thats the way you'll get it.

I don't claime to have some kind of moral high ground, I just claim I'm right. My claim to Israel is easily disputed, and is for the most part an opinion. So is anybody elses. However my people have frought four wars and won them handily. We had help from US, but Arabs had help from the Soviet Union, so spare me the "it was not a fare firght cause US supported you" crap.

Now you can seat there and claim that there is a peacefull solution, all Jews have to do is go back to the pre 1967 borders, but you simply dilusional or idealistic. The majority of muslims do not recognize the stat of Israel at all, pre 1967 borders ot not. What they want is somethign complelty impossible to me, as Jew. They want me and the millions of Jews in Israel gone, not neccesarly dead, but gone. To that I can't agree.

Hence I do not see any reason to negoitate partial solutions when in the end, every period of peace is temporary. Why give back and land when it clearly does not bring back any peace? If you want come and try to get it. If you get the crap beaten out of you, don't go runnin to UN for sanctions. Its not the Jews fault Arabs can't fight wars. The last good general they had was Saladin.

Just ask yourself, if muslims had the power the West has today, would there be any non-muslim entities out there?


It is precisely because of this kind of bulls*hit response that I didn't get involved here in the first place. Of course, in a war, if you were to attack me, I would kill you and kill your family and blast them all to oblivion. So?

Its that kind of bulls*hit rhetoric that just pisses me off. I understand that you are passionate about this topic but why can't you be civilized. You're not a military leader. Stop with the bravado. I didn't even make a statement about the issue and you started up with the macho talk. I don't know how young you are but I suggest you relax - that way, people can have decent conversations.

I'm not asking you, Simrud, to defend yourself or your views on this site. Keep in mind, I haven't made my views explicit because this is the sort of conversation you should have face to face. The only assertion I have made so far is that people follow a moral principle.

I have saved thousands of lives in my career, whether they were Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, white, black, brown etc. I have tried my best to make medications available for as cheap as possible in various regions of the world. I'm not interested in nonsense. I'm interested in solutions.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
codeunknown
Posts: 22615
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 7/14/2004
Member: #704
7/30/2006  2:05 PM
Posted by TemujinKnick:
Posted by codeunknown:

some people actually appear to be advocating a Hobbesian solution to this mess.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. In fact I would say the only proper way of looking at this mess is from a Hobbesian point of view. Locke only applies within consensual frameworks. Foreign policy and war involving rogue states and non-state guerilla and terrorist forces cannot be dealt with through Lockean diplomacy. What happens when reality is screaming Hobbes and you refuse to listen? The civilized world of Locke is killed by murderous thugs of one type (Nazis) or another (Islamists). No one here is suggesting that the liberal democratic relatively free world give up on it's most cherished ideals. Only recognize the limits of such ideals and that there comes a time when you need to be willing to fight by the laws of the jungle (Hobbes) to defend all that is good about the West and East.

Locke is hardly the only alternative to Hobbes, as you should know. I'm talking about founding moral principles - more general than Locke's ramblings on government and private property. Hobbesian philosophy is an extreme resort that breeds fear and retaliation and, potentially, ends only with the complete extermination of one group.

Believe me, I believe in only the most practical of ideals. I am a proponent of an empirical, standardized utilitarianism. Considering the consequences of Israel's response, I don't believe it was the best solution because I can think immediately of better alternatives. Honestly, I don't have time to elaborate - I could write books on this subject. But, for now atleast, lets agree to disagree.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
7/30/2006  2:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by simrud:

I use very simple "moral principles". I beleive that Israel belongs to my people (Jews). Everybody else is welcome to be there as long as they recognize that fact. If you don't agree with me, you are within your rights. You can fight a war for example, or shoot rockets at me, or suicide bomb me. But then don't be suprised when I retaliate and kill you, and possibly some of your family as collateral, if you hide behind them.

I understand perfectly how Hizbollah fighters feel, I respect them as my enemies. Do I dispise them? Ofcorse, mostly because of the tactics they use. But what other tactics are open to them? They are week, so they do what they can, attack civillians. And then they hide behind their own. And to that I say, fine, if thats the way you want it, thats the way you'll get it.

I don't claime to have some kind of moral high ground, I just claim I'm right. My claim to Israel is easily disputed, and is for the most part an opinion. So is anybody elses. However my people have frought four wars and won them handily. We had help from US, but Arabs had help from the Soviet Union, so spare me the "it was not a fare firght cause US supported you" crap.

Now you can seat there and claim that there is a peacefull solution, all Jews have to do is go back to the pre 1967 borders, but you simply dilusional or idealistic. The majority of muslims do not recognize the stat of Israel at all, pre 1967 borders ot not. What they want is somethign complelty impossible to me, as Jew. They want me and the millions of Jews in Israel gone, not neccesarly dead, but gone. To that I can't agree.

Hence I do not see any reason to negoitate partial solutions when in the end, every period of peace is temporary. Why give back and land when it clearly does not bring back any peace? If you want come and try to get it. If you get the crap beaten out of you, don't go runnin to UN for sanctions. Its not the Jews fault Arabs can't fight wars. The last good general they had was Saladin.

Just ask yourself, if muslims had the power the West has today, would there be any non-muslim entities out there?


It is precisely because of this kind of bulls*hit response that I didn't get involved here in the first place. Of course, in a war, if you were to attack me, I would kill you and kill your family and blast them all to oblivion. So?

Its that kind of bulls*hit rhetoric that just pisses me off. I understand that you are passionate about this topic but why can't you be civilized. You're not a military leader. Stop with the bravado. I didn't even make a statement about the issue and you started up with the macho talk. I don't know how young you are but I suggest you relax - that way, people can have decent conversations.

I'm not asking you, Simrud, to defend yourself or your views on this site. Keep in mind, I haven't made my views explicit because this is the sort of conversation you should have face to face. The only assertion I have made so far is that people follow a moral principle.

I have saved thousands of lives in my career, whether they were Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, white, black, brown etc. I have tried my best to make medications available for as cheap as possible in various regions of the world. I'm not interested in nonsense. I'm interested in solutions.

Look I used to talk about these things just like you do, using a lot of big words, etc. The only thing that path leads to is saying, "I don't have an answer." I came to the same conclusion. I don't have an answer. Doesnt seem like you have an answer either. You can write a book about how you don't have a answer, but it wount help my people. This is not bravado, this is reality. When the majority of nation/race/religion considers you an enemy, you have very little choice.

The situation in the middle east is such that I simply don't see a solution that would be fare to both sides, or rather accepted as such by both sides. The only reason I got involved in this discussin, which I think is totally pointless anyways, is because Killa was blatantly attacking my side of the issue.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
firefly
Posts: 23223
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
7/30/2006  2:41 PM
One thing I'd like to say to you codeunknown, is this. I personally have no problem debating the Israel- Hezbollah issue with Killa. I respect the fact that his opinion differs from mine, and I feel that there is a plateau for debate between us. The problems that have arisen from his posts on the subject, are because, as far as I can see, Killa reserves all of his moral, tactical and philosophical condemnations for Israel. Its easy fro him to say now "I have always condemned the other side too" but he hasn't. Its one thing to start a post with silly little caveat like "Of course terrorism is wrong but...", and another thing entirely to actually condemn what they are doing to Israel.

So all I can see is a person who lacks any kind of objectivity in the matter. He seems to be a person who will condemn whatever Israel does regardless of any Hobbesian, Lockeian or any other form of moral and social structure.

Now, granted I may also lack a little objectivity in this matter, but I habe never said anything like the blatant anti-Israel things Killa has.

I am happy to debate the problems in the Mid-East with anyone, but Killa's continuous illogical, historically inaccurate and morally distasteful tirades regarding Israeli "racism" shows a person with more on his mind then just debating proportionality and the rules of law.

If I come to the UK get-together, I will happily shake Killa's hand and schmooze Knicks till the wee hours, cuz as an orthodox jew, I have lived with racism all my life, and I can handle it. But I have been trying to explain to Killa what his comments basically boil down to, and he won't see it.

I can only tell Killa what I see in his words, and I see racism. He denies it, but I see what I see. I'm not writing his posts, he is.

Just wanted people to know how this thread is running. Personally, I am happy to debate te issue with anyone, and will respect anyones opinion on the matter. The problem has arisen from innate racism percieved within one persons posts by myself and other posters here.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
7/30/2006  2:56 PM
what does one do when the enlightened west is confronted by consistant mortal threats from societies comitted to the ideologies of the Dark Ages... where diplomacy is seen as weakness (and as encouragement for further incursion) and comprimise an afront to honour and ancient disciplines???

It is easy to pass judgement... but I again submit that the majority of the democratic citizens of Israel are eager for a two state solution...

The problem is that extreemist Islamo-facist sects command respect and loyalty in that part of the world... they hold the cards to force moderates to the sidelines whenever they choose to turn up the heat... they are also well financed and aided by rogue nations that are each day getting closer to aquiring nuclear weaponry that they would not hesitate to export to these groups whenever they see it as a strategic advantage...

There is no real chance at negotiation with the Islamo-facist, because they are literally living in the ideologies of the dark ages and believe that they are being rightous for doing so... their religion will not permit them to remit until you surrender, flee or convert...

They no longer reserve suicide bombing (self sacrifice for the deaths and maming of innocence) for the Jew but even for the westerner and fellow Muslim...

It is a disaster... it is tragic... but there is no apparent solution other than for Israel to try to persevere.

It is foolish for any westerner to believe that if Israel was in the hands of Islamo-facists then they would be appeased...
they have publically declared that they want all of the middle East and Spain... and then if their Messiah doesn't arrive they will take on the world...

These are not the 90s anymore, the world has grown very dark with infective rhetoric... the extreemists have the support of the majority of the Islamic populations of the Middle East and several abroad...

The Islamic moderates are unable to garner the support in their world to combat this bastadization of true Islam and reclaim their religion of peace and enlightenment.... this is a very dire situation...

I am sorry to be describing such a dismal reality, but this is really how I see it... I would love to declare love and peace and embrace each and everyone of them, but there really is no true hope so long as Militant Islam maintains its sway over the Arab world...('');
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
7/31/2006  11:35 AM
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
8/1/2006  6:57 PM
http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110008733

Israel Is Losing This War
Its leaders need to act fast.

BY BRET STEPHENS
Tuesday, August 1, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

Israel is losing this war.

This is not to say that itwill lose the war, or that the war was unwinnable to start with. But if it keeps going as it is, Israel is headed for the greatest military humiliation in its history. During the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Israelis were stunned by their early reversals against Egypt and Syria, yet they eked out a victory over these two powerfully armed, Soviet-backed adversaries in 20 days. The conflict with Hezbollah--a 15,000-man militia chiefly armed with World War II-era Katyusha rockets--is now in its 21st day. So far, Israel has nothing to show for its efforts: no enemy territory gained, no enemy leaders killed, no abatement in the missile barrage that has sent a million Israelis from their homes and workplaces.

Generally speaking, wars are lost either militarily or politically. Israel is losing both ways. Two weeks ago, Israeli officials boasted they had destroyed 50% of Hezbollah's military capabilities and needed just 10 to 14 days to finish the job. Two days ago, after a record 140 Katyushas landed on Israel, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told visiting Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice he needed another 10 to 14 days. When the war began, Israeli officials spoke of "breaking" Hezbollah; next of evicting Hezbollah from the border area; then of "degrading" Hezbollah's capabilities; now of establishing an effective multinational force that can police the border. Israel's goals are becoming less ambitious while the time it needs to accomplish them is growing longer.

It is amazing how much can be squandered in the space of three weeks. On July 12, Israel sat behind an internationally recognized frontier, where it enjoyed a preponderance of military force. It had deterrence and legitimacy. Hezbollah's cross-border raid that day was widely condemned within Lebanon and among Arab leaders as heedless and provocative. Mr. Olmert's decision to respond with massive force enjoyed left-to-right political support. He also had a green light from the Bush administration, which has reasons of its own to want Hezbollah defanged and which assumed the Israelis were up to the job.

But it seems they are not up to the job. The war began with a string of intelligence failures: Israel had lowered its alert level on the northern border prior to the raid; it did not know that Hezbollah possessed Chinese-made antiship missiles, one of which nearly sank an Israeli missile boat off the coast of Beirut; it was caught off guard by the fierce resistance it encountered in the two Lebanese villages it has so far attempted to capture. Such failures are surprising and discouraging, given that Israel has been tracking and fighting Hezbollah for nearly a quarter-century.

Harder to understand is a military and political strategy that mistakenly assumes that Israel can take its time against Hezbollah. It cannot. Israel does not supply itself with precision-guided bombs; it does not provide its own cover at the U.N. Security Council; it does not have 130,000 troops at risk in Iraq of an uprising by Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army. It should be immensely worrying to Israel's leaders that Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani is calling for an immediate cease-fire. Ayatollah Sistani--unlike, say, Kofi Annan--is the sort of man who can get George W. Bush's ear.

Israelis have compounded that mistake with an airpower-based strategy that, whatever its virtues in keeping Israeli troops out of harm's way, was never going to evict Hezbollah from southern Lebanon, just as airpower alone did not evict Saddam from Kuwait in 1991. The law of averages, however, guaranteed that over the course of 5,000 bombing sorties one bomb (or two or three or four) would go astray.

That may have been what happened over the weekend in Qana, where an Israeli air attack reportedly caused the deaths of at least 27 people, including 17 children. Yes, Hezbollah bears ultimate responsibility here for deliberately placing its military assets among civilians. Yet the death of those children should be counted as a crime if Israel's purposes in Lebanon are basically feckless. A line being bandied about in Israeli security circles is that the purpose of the bombing is to show Hezbollah that "the boss-man has gone berserk." What kind of goal is that? Nobody in this conflict ever doubted Israel's ability to set Lebanon back 20, 50 or 500 years (about where Hezbollah itself wants the country to be).

The goal, rather, is to ensure that Hezbollah will never again be in a position to spark a similar crisis, and to do so with maximum effect in the shortest possible time. Israeli Chief of Staff Dan Halutz warned two weeks ago that Hezbollah wants a long war: "They realize that prolonged attrition causes internal pressure from Israeli citizens and international pressure, and think those are our weak points." That's right, which makes his three-week bombing campaign puzzling.

More puzzling was the Israeli cabinet's decision last week against launching a full-scale ground invasion. Instead, they will content themselves with a narrow security strip in southern Lebanon, one that is too narrow to prevent rocket fire from reaching Israel but will give Hezbollah a fresh excuse to fight the new "occupation." The cabinet also went out of its way to reassure Syria--a country Mr. Olmert listed in his own Axis of Evil only the week before--that it had no intention of dragging it into the conflict. But Israel need not have bombed Damascus to derive the benefit of keeping Bashar Assad awake at night, to guess what his patronage of Hezbollah will get him.

Last night in Tel Aviv, Mr. Olmert delivered another blood, tears, toil and sweat speech; the Israeli cabinet later approved a stepped-up ground war, the scope of which remains to be seen. Meanwhile, Ms. Rice left Jerusalem for Washington with a different idea: "I take with me an emerging consensus on what is necessary for both an urgent cease-fire and a lasting settlement. I am convinced we can achieve both this week."

Timelines are colliding here; agendas may follow. Israel has a prime minister who talks tough. What remains to be seen is whether he can act fast.

Mr. Stephens is a member of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board. His column appears in the Journal Tuesdays.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
8/1/2006  7:31 PM
Well, only 10 rockets so far today, down from 100+. I'd asy its working. Let the army finish what is started. Another week, week and half, and they'll pusch Hizbollah beyond the Litani river.

Lets give Hizbollah some credit here, they are good fighets, much better than Arabs ever put out in previous wars, dedicated, not afraid to die, etc. They were also well supplised by Syria and Iran, and well trined. Desmanlting them the way IDF has done so far, with such small casualties is a sign of streangth.

It will take them another 6-7 years to recover resources wise, and if a UN force is in place like it it planned they are not going to be in range.

Also I think US listening to some imam is a little far fethed, there is not dout Israel has no more than 2 weeks to finish up, but I think they will accomplish most of their goals in maximum a week and a half.

The message has been sent loud and clear either way, attacking Israel in order to gain conession will result in grave consequances, which is really the most important thing anyways.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
8/1/2006  7:44 PM
By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer Tue Aug 1, 3:25 PM ET

JERUSALEM - Polls show wall-to-wall support for
Israel's fight against Hezbollah, even with Israeli civilians enduring a barrage of rocket fire and the army poised for a sweeping ground offensive that is sure to lead to more casualties.
ADVERTISEMENT

Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon sparked the largest anti-war demonstrations in Israel's history — causing fractures in Israeli society that have barely healed. But this time it's different.

Israelis are united in a sense of outrage at what they see as an unprovoked attack by Hezbollah and a belief that the guerrilla group, backed by
Iran, poses a threat to the Jewish state's survival, said Yehuda Ben Meir, a former Israeli deputy foreign minister and a senior fellow at the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies.

A poll published Tuesday in Israel's Maariv newspaper showed 80 percent of respondents support the military's conduct during the offensive, while 74 percent said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his government were doing a great job. The poll of 500 adults had a margin of error of 4.4 percentage points.

Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in a bid to wipe out Palestinian militants who were using the country's south as a launching pad for attacks on Israel.

Within a week of the offensive, public opinion began to turn against it. Protests grew as casualties mounted and allegations surfaced that then-Defense Minister
Ariel Sharon misled the government over his war aims. The opposition exploded in massive protests after a Lebanese militia allied with Israel massacred Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps.

Even Israel's pullback to a buffer zone along the Lebanese border — which it occupied until 2000 — did not silence critics, who called Lebanon "Israel's Vietnam."

Now, despite three weeks of fighting that has killed 51 Israelis and more than 500 Lebanese and growing international pressure for a cease-fire, Olmert has authorized the army to push ahead with a major new offensive.

"Every extra day is one that drains the strength of the enemy. Every day that passes is one in which the (army) reduces their ability to fight us," Olmert said Tuesday after his Cabinet authorized the use of thousands of reservists to push 18 miles into Lebanon toward the Litani River, the original goal of the 1982 offensive.

He can do this because of his overwhelming public support, which has remained steady through the fierce battle of Bint Jbail, where Israeli forces took heavy losses, and the bombing of a building in Qana that killed 56 Lebanese civilians, many of them children, said Ben Meir, who specializes in Israeli public opinion.

Israel's Arabs, who make up about 20 percent of the population, are the lone voice of opposition to the fighting, Arab-Israeli lawmaker Ahmed Tibi said.

"We are a small minority in Israel where the consensus is overwhelming, there is no more right and left," he said. "Any words we are saying against the war are being interpreted as attacking the whole of Israel."

If the Arab community is factored out, approval for the war passes 90 percent, a number almost unheard of in a country deeply divided by religion and politics, Ben Meir said.

Even the staunchest opponents of Israel's previous Lebanon foray back this war.

"This is an existential war. A war over our actual lives," said Orna Shimoni, a member of the now defunct Four Mothers grass roots group widely credited with getting Israel to withdraw from Lebanon in 2000.

What frightens her is Hezbollah's alliance with Iran, which has nuclear ambitions and a stated goal of wiping Israel off the map.

"Not one person from the nation of Israel will remain," she told the Haaretz daily. "So I feel that despite the terrible pain, this war is just and necessary to protect our lives."

Many Israelis view Hezbollah "as a vicious, ruthless, cruel Shiite organization affiliated with Iran," said Ben Meir. These feelings were enhanced when the guerrillas launched a July 12 cross-border raid, killing three soldiers and capturing two.

To get rid of this threat, Israelis are prepared to suffer losses and withstand the barrage of nearly 1,900 Katyusha rockets Hezbollah has fired into Israel over the past three weeks.

"I am ready to absorb (the rockets) as long as it takes if I know that eventually there will be no more Katyushas," said Nachman Finkelstein, 48, a resident of Kiryat Shemona who has been living in a bomb shelter for weeks.

"It will never break me as long as I know the army is doing what it has to do," he said.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
8/1/2006  7:47 PM
So if there is one clear thing that the Hizbollah have accomplished, it is the complete unification of the Israeli society behind its government and army. Considering how partisan the society is there, deeply divided on politics and religion, that is quite an accomplishment on their part.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
8/1/2006  8:30 PM
Posted by simrud:

So if there is one clear thing that the Hizbollah have accomplished, it is the complete unification of the Israeli society behind its government and army.
Thats the best thing I have heard so far. The only way this war is lost is if the Israeli people are divided in their support of the war. Thankfully, Olmert hasnt turned into Bush yet.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
8/2/2006  5:29 AM
Well he has an easier job. When rockets fall all over half your country, and btw, the north is where the majority of the army kore comes from, you are not going to see opposition to the war. The people who were pro-negotiations have bascially been discredited completly by Hizbollha. In return for a unilateral pullout out of Lebanaon, pullout out of several other territories, and a planned pllout out of 90% of Gaza, they get a full fledged 2-front war.

I don't know how there are going to be peace talks antime soon. The entrie middle east process has been based on peace for land principle. The last few years have basically made a complete and utter mockery of that idea.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
8/2/2006  1:21 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/opinion/02soderberg.html?pagewanted=print



Op-Ed Contributor
Peacekeepers Are Not Peacemakers
By NANCY SODERBERG
Jacksonville, Fla.

AS the death tolls in Lebanon and Israel rise, calls for a robust international peacekeeping force are increasing. But history should serve as warning. As we all know, the United States and France learned the cost of a poorly planned presence in 1983 when Hezbollah suicide bombers blew up their barracks, killing 300 troops.

More to the point, there has been a peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon since 1978 (paradoxically named the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, or Unifil) charged with confirming Israel?s withdrawal from Lebanon, restoring ?international peace and security? and helping the Lebanese government restore its authority. The force, 2,000 strong, has failed in all but the first task, instead focusing on humanitarian aid.

The Lebanon mission is the most deadly United Nations operation, with some 260 personnel killed over 28 years. The most recent deaths came last week, when four peacekeepers were killed by Israeli fire, outraging Secretary General Kofi Annan. Regrettably, instead of bringing these lame-duck troops out of the fray, the Security Council chose to extend the mission?s mandate, which was to have expired Monday, until the end of the month.

Now the United Nations and European Union officials are urging a strengthened force to ?sort out the question of disarmament of the militia? in southern Lebanon and ?guarantee sovereignty and freedom for Lebanon.? These are goals so ambitious that no peacekeeping force, not even NATO, could achieve them.

In any case, one cannot deploy a peacekeeping force until the questions of disarmament and sovereignty have been addressed. Unless the path forward is agreed upon, the peacekeeping troops are at best without a clear mandate and at worst can become pawns in the negotiations.

Think of what happened in Bosnia in the 1990?s: the initial United Nations peacekeeping force in the Balkans, called Unprofor, was powerless to stop the fighting and had its troops used as human shields by the combatants. Its successor, a NATO-led force called IFOR, was far more effective ? largely because the Dayton Accords were agreed upon before it went in.

The way forward in Lebanon is clear. First, the Syrians, the Lebanese and the Iranians must give up the fiction that Israel did not fully withdraw from Lebanon in 2000. Hezbollah justifies its terrorist attacks by claiming that Israel never withdrew from a small area called the Shebaa Farms.

In fact, however, the Shebaa Farms area is not in Lebanon; all international records clearly show it is part of Syria. When it was clear in 2000 that the Israelis were going to withdraw from Lebanon, Syrian and Lebanese officials circulated in the United Nations a crudely altered map purporting to show the area in Lebanon. The Security Council rejected that claim and confirmed the Israeli withdrawal. But myths have a way of surviving in the Middle East and the Arabs continue to use it as a justification for attacks.

Second, no cease-fire will hold unless the root cause of the current crisis is addressed: the continuing presence of armed Hezbollah militia in southern Lebanon. Any solution will require a new security arrangement that not only disarms the Hezbollah militia but also mandates the deployment of Lebanese forces to the south, as well as a return of prisoners on both sides. Without such a deal, it would be folly to send in peacekeepers.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice faces a tough challenge in Lebanon, especially given that the key players, Syria and Iran, are not even in the room. Success will take more sophisticated diplomacy than we have yet seen from her or from President Bush. In the meantime, Lebanese and Israeli civilians, along with blue-helmeted peacekeepers, are paying the price for the West having ignored the rising threat of Hezbollah over the last six years.

Nancy Soderberg, the author of ?The Superpower Myth,? was, from 1997 to 2001, a United States ambassador to the United Nations, where she negotiated the Security Council?s endorsement of Israel?s withdrawal from Lebanon.
efw
Posts: 20667
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/10/2005
Member: #1002

8/2/2006  1:26 PM
Dennis Miller is an idiot. I don't know if he was ever funny, but he sure isn't now.

Palestine is a word that has been used for centuries if not, depending on your etymological criteria, millenia.
Nalod
Posts: 70776
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
8/2/2006  1:58 PM
Posted by efw:

Dennis Miller is an idiot. I don't know if he was ever funny, but he sure isn't now.

Palestine is a word that has been used for centuries if not, depending on your etymological criteria, millenia.


Yes, Israel was called Palistine, but there were no palistinians. They were Israelites.
Killa4luv
Posts: 27768
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 6/23/2002
Member: #261
USA
8/2/2006  6:40 PM
Down the Memory Hole
Israeli contribution to conflict is [convinently] forgotten by leading papers

7/28/06

In the wake of the most serious outbreak of Israeli/Arab violence in years, three leading U.S. papers—the Washington Post, New York Times and Los Angeles Times—have each strongly editorialized that Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon were solely responsible for sparking violence, and that the Israeli military response was predictable and unavoidable. These editorials ignored recent events that indicate a much more complicated situation.

Beginning with the Israeli attack on Gaza, a New York Times editorial (6/29/06) headlined "Hamas Provokes a Fight" declared that "the responsibility for this latest escalation rests squarely with Hamas," and that "an Israeli military response was inevitable." The paper (7/15/06) was similarly sure in its assignment of blame after the fighting spread to Lebanon: "It is important to be clear about not only who is responsible for the latest outbreak, but who stands to gain most from its continued escalation. Both questions have the same answer: Hamas and Hezbollah."

The Washington Post (7/14/06) agreed, writing that "Hezbollah and its backers have instigated the current fighting and should be held responsible for the consequences." The L.A. Times (7/14/06) likewise wrote that "in both cases Israel was provoked." Three days and scores of civilian deaths later, the Times (7/17/06) was even more direct: "Make no mistake about it: Responsibility for the escalating carnage in Lebanon and northern Israel lies with one side...and that is Hezbollah."

As FAIR noted in a recent Action Alert (7/19/06), the portrayal of Israel as the innocent victim in the Gaza conflict is hard to square with the death toll in the months leading up to the current crisis; between September 2005 and June 2006, 144 Palestinians in Gaza were killed by Israeli forces, according to a list compiled by the Israeli human rights group B'tselem; 29 of those killed were children. During the same period, no Israelis were killed as a result of violence from Gaza.

In a July 21 CounterPunch column, Alexander Cockburn highlighted some of the violent incidents that have dropped out of the media’s collective memory:

Let's go on a brief excursion into pre-history. I’m talking about June 20, 2006, when Israeli aircraft fired at least one missile at a car in an attempted extrajudicial assassination attempt on a road between Jabalya and Gaza City. The missile missed the car. Instead it killed three Palestinian children and wounded 15.

Back we go again to June 13, 2006. Israeli aircraft fired missiles at a van in another attempted extrajudicial assassination. The successive barrages killed nine innocent Palestinians.

Now we're really in the dark ages, reaching far, far back to June 9, 2006, when Israel shelled a beach in Beit Lahiya killing eight civilians and injuring 32.

That's just a brief trip down Memory Lane, and we trip over the bodies of twenty dead and forty-seven wounded, all of them Palestinians, most of them women and children.


[b]On July 24, the day before Hamas' cross-border raid, Israel made an incursion of its own, capturing two Palestinians that it said were members of Hamas (something Hamas denied—L.A. Times, 7/25/06). This incident received far less coverage in U.S. media than the subsequent seizure of the Israeli soldier; the few papers that covered it mostly dismissed it in a one-paragraph brief (e.g., Chicago Tribune, 7/25/06), while the Israeli taken prisoner got front-page headlines all over the world. It's likely that most Gazans don’t share U.S. news outlets' apparent sense that captured Israelis are far more interesting or important than captured Palestinians.

The situation in Lebanon is also more complicated than its portrayal in U.S. media, with the roots of the current crisis extending well before the July 12 capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah. A major incident fueling the latest cycle of violence was a May 26, 2006 car bombing in Sidon, Lebanon, that killed a senior official of Islamic Jihad, a Palestinian group allied with Hezbollah. Lebanon later arrested a suspect, Mahmoud Rafeh, whom Lebanese authorities claimed had confessed to carrying out the assassination on behalf of Mossad (London Times, 6/17/06).


Israel denied involvement with the bombing, but even some Israelis are skeptical. "If it turns out this operation was effectively carried out by Mossad or another Israeli secret service," wrote Yediot Aharonot, Israel’s top-selling daily (6/16/06; cited in AFP, 6/16/06), "an outsider from the intelligence world should be appointed to know whether it was worth it and whether it lays groups open to risk."

In Lebanon, Israel's culpability was taken as a given. "The Israelis, in hitting Islamic Jihad, knew they would get Hezbollah involved too," Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, a professor at Beirut’s Lebanese American University, told the New York Times (5/29/06). "The Israelis had to be aware that if they assassinated this guy they would get a response."

And, indeed, on May 28, Lebanese militants in Hezbollah-controlled territory fired Katyusha rockets at a military vehicle and a military base inside Israel. Israel responded with airstrikes against Palestinian camps deep inside Lebanon, which in turn were met by Hezbollah rocket and mortar attacks on more Israeli military bases, which prompted further Israeli airstrikes and "a steady artillery barrage at suspected Hezbollah positions" (New York Times, 5/29/06). Gen. Udi Adam, the commander of Israel’s northern forces, boasted that "our response was the harshest and most severe since the withdrawal" of Israeli troops from Lebanon in 2000 (Chicago Tribune, 5/29/06).

This intense fighting was the prelude to the all-out warfare that began on July 12, portrayed in U.S. media as beginning with an attack out of the blue by Hezbollah. While Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers may have reignited the smoldering conflict, the Israeli air campaign that followed was not a spontaneous reaction to aggression but a well-planned operation that was years in the making.

"Of all of Israel’s wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared," Gerald Steinberg, a political science professor at Israel's Bar-Ilan University, told the San Francisco Chronicle (7/21/05). "By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we’re seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it’s been simulated and rehearsed across the board." The Chronicle reported that a "senior Israeli army officer" has been giving PowerPoint presentations for more than a year to "U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks" outlining the coming war with Lebanon, explaining that a combination of air and ground forces would target Hezbollah and "transportation and communication arteries."

Which raises a question: If journalists have been told by Israel for more than a year that a war was coming, why are they pretending that it all started on July 12? By truncating the cause-and-effect timelines of both the Gaza and Lebanon conflicts, editorial boards at major U.S. dailies gravely oversimplify the decidedly more complex nature of the facts on the ground.
O.T. War in the middle East...

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy