earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:What really pisses me off is that the Republicans were completely obstructionist from day one with Obama. They never tried to work with him and in fact plotted to do everything they could to disrupt what he tried to do. The Dems never did that to Republican presidents and haven't been that nasty after Trump's win. Instead they are being very gracious and talking about working with Trump. This is not right and both sides are not the same in this regard, even when Dems obstruct it's not anywhere near the same level. They worked with Reagan and Bush. They didn't throw trash into the gears to shut down the government like the Republicans.

All the Republicans care about is being in power. Once they get what they want they are all so cooperative and all of a sudden looking to actually govern, which they literally stopped doing for 8 years. Now that they have UNITED government they have all these plans and ideas they want to get right to work on. Stuff they could've done to help the country the last 8 years but refused to do. It's truly sinister. Now they'll be passing BOATLOADS of bills and making all kinds of changes. Where was all of that the last 8 years when we needed it?

Whats funny is that they didn't want to work with Obama on the infrastructure spending bill, they said no...The also rejected Obama 28% corporate tax proposal bill and cut loopholes...But Trump will fix it..But as long as it gets done, it's all good...

Trump wanted to illuminate the death tax so he could pass his wealth to his kids, well that will happen now...

illuminate or eliminate the death tax?
Should a person be taxed leaving money to their children? Seems like they are all part of the same family. Billionaire or not, stay away from Family matters government.

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation.

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

It is not a corruption for monetary and political gain.
This is corruption of people who cannot let go the old cozy world crumbling in front of their wide open eyes.
Mainstream old-fashioned media losing its ground along with bankrupt politicians and preachers of any kind.
Truth and common sense are storming back into the picture pushing millions from convenient social holes.
From obstacles they became a problem. We will see a lot of this on every level from state government, to local, down to corporations.
Too many bloodsuckers to tolerate. Time to make them all make the leaving the hard way.

Just so you know cuz I don't think most of you understand this, but the local governments outside of the big cities are NOT CHANGING. Congress is relatively UNCHANGED!!! In fact all this hype from Trump about "draining the swamp" is utter BS! All of the same politicians are still in charge in RED America. They didn't get rid of their own chosen representatives. All the people who have been there FOR YEARS are still in Washington!!!

Republicans did everything in their power to obstruct so that they could regain power and now that they have it what will they do? Big Tax Cuts? Get rid of Regulation? Basically nothing that really will bring back the thousands of small towns and dying Rust Belt cities in terms of Manufacturing Jobs. These guys are the ones who believed in Outsourcing and allowing Big Business to pay low wages and ship jobs overseas. These same Republicans are the ones who are backed by Big Business and always have been.

We can call this a process. Trump can get things going. People need inspiration. Maybe Obama tried going in that direction but the changes didn't happen. Things got worse - economically, socially, etc.

We can't depend on one person to make things better for us, but together, we can do our part and move forward. Might be a long process but I'm game.

For example, IF Hillary is prosecuted and IF Comey or Podesta are also, we can see a trickle down prosecution like effect. That would at least be a start, give people hope, get people motivated to make things better. Put corruption in prion. Work on our relations with Russia (e.g. trade agreement) and work together more. Where we have been headed lately, it seems to make companies more money, save rich people more money, remove the middle class, conquer the world, remove all kinds of borders (while waging wars next door), etc. That was a dead end street.

Yea? Think those things bolded were better under Bush? Wow. Good post.

Thanks.

If I had to choose between Bush and Obama, I think I would choose Obama.

But you are putting out a false narrative..How is the economy worse now than when Obama met it losing over 800 jobs per month, unemployment rate rockets over 10%, Stock market was at 6700 not at 18000..What are your gauges, what are you looking at???

What has happened to our debt? America, if it was a company (and ironically it almost is), would be bankrupt right now. We are riding a wave of faith and money printing.
They are printing money to no end, inflating the supply (but they have an elegant name for it - Quantitative Easing.) That steals from people. A fair amount of that money goes into the markets, hence why an economy that is not really going up much, has a market that is rocketing. It is basically inflation, a big big bubble waiting to pop. The stock market is not indicative, truly, of the economy, it reflects money coming into it (look at rising P/E's http://www.multpl.com/). And many countries e.g. Saudi Arabia, put LOTS of money into it.

Last I heard, many more people are working PT jobs because they couldn't get FT jobs. And companies love this as then they don't have to pay benefits for FT, but just looking at unemployed doesn't tell the whole story.

Maybe I misunderstood you (and different issues, Bush and Obama as people and then just the economic aspects while president) but what is the false narrative?

Your description of the economy is false..We were heading into the deepest recessions since the depression..Look it up...The debt is because of the recession...Obama has actually reduced the deficit he walked into, look that up too...

Not to get even more off the point here, but in 2008 that was a very dangerous situation. There was little chance of fixing things after that. They
started pumping money into the system, getting away from using interest rates to change the economy and instead using money supply. A big big experiment.
Really, you need to give some information. I have a fairly good understanding here, so would like to hear what you think. I know what I think. ;-)

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:What really pisses me off is that the Republicans were completely obstructionist from day one with Obama. They never tried to work with him and in fact plotted to do everything they could to disrupt what he tried to do. The Dems never did that to Republican presidents and haven't been that nasty after Trump's win. Instead they are being very gracious and talking about working with Trump. This is not right and both sides are not the same in this regard, even when Dems obstruct it's not anywhere near the same level. They worked with Reagan and Bush. They didn't throw trash into the gears to shut down the government like the Republicans.

All the Republicans care about is being in power. Once they get what they want they are all so cooperative and all of a sudden looking to actually govern, which they literally stopped doing for 8 years. Now that they have UNITED government they have all these plans and ideas they want to get right to work on. Stuff they could've done to help the country the last 8 years but refused to do. It's truly sinister. Now they'll be passing BOATLOADS of bills and making all kinds of changes. Where was all of that the last 8 years when we needed it?

Whats funny is that they didn't want to work with Obama on the infrastructure spending bill, they said no...The also rejected Obama 28% corporate tax proposal bill and cut loopholes...But Trump will fix it..But as long as it gets done, it's all good...

Trump wanted to illuminate the death tax so he could pass his wealth to his kids, well that will happen now...

republicans didn't want to work with obama despite his concessions. that's fact.

economic policy - there is no right/wrong answer here. this is a serious problem that no one person is going to fix. and it will take decades.

foreign policy/international relations - again, i believe there is no right/wrong answer here. there's so many factors that i can't pretend to know what it takes to make the decisions they do.

while they are very important, i can accept reasons for why certain choices are made.

but what bums me out more than anything else is human rights. non whites and women have struggled so much in this country...but there was still evolution even if it was slow. there was still progression and growth. and this election tells me that 50% of the country has no interest in that. and white people came out in record numbers...and it's not a coincidence this comes on the heel of our first black president.

half this country doesn't care what a man can say or do to a woman. they don't care about pointing to other races and saying they are the problem - it was embraced. i feel the progress made has been halted and may actually go backwards. woman's right to choose - same sex marriage - these things are in play and i can't believe that it is. that's what hurts for me. by saying stuff like "locker room talk" and "i've heard worse" is such a huge pile of sh t. it's that way of thinking that keeps people from evolving. it's not a level playing field.

the only thing i can say is that with the house + senate + president all republican, more things are going to get passed. so there will be action. and the republican party will boast about how things got done.

we will see if the actions taken will benefit this country or not and despite my disappointment and anger, i have to wipe the slate clean and move on. i will judge this new president based on what he does AND what he says since he represents this country to everyone else.

my expectations are low. i fear what's to come. so i have to take it as it comes.

djsunyc wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:What really pisses me off is that the Republicans were completely obstructionist from day one with Obama. They never tried to work with him and in fact plotted to do everything they could to disrupt what he tried to do. The Dems never did that to Republican presidents and haven't been that nasty after Trump's win. Instead they are being very gracious and talking about working with Trump. This is not right and both sides are not the same in this regard, even when Dems obstruct it's not anywhere near the same level. They worked with Reagan and Bush. They didn't throw trash into the gears to shut down the government like the Republicans.

All the Republicans care about is being in power. Once they get what they want they are all so cooperative and all of a sudden looking to actually govern, which they literally stopped doing for 8 years. Now that they have UNITED government they have all these plans and ideas they want to get right to work on. Stuff they could've done to help the country the last 8 years but refused to do. It's truly sinister. Now they'll be passing BOATLOADS of bills and making all kinds of changes. Where was all of that the last 8 years when we needed it?

Whats funny is that they didn't want to work with Obama on the infrastructure spending bill, they said no...The also rejected Obama 28% corporate tax proposal bill and cut loopholes...But Trump will fix it..But as long as it gets done, it's all good...

Trump wanted to illuminate the death tax so he could pass his wealth to his kids, well that will happen now...

republicans didn't want to work with obama despite his concessions. that's fact.

economic policy - there is no right/wrong answer here. this is a serious problem that no one person is going to fix. and it will take decades.

foreign policy/international relations - again, i believe there is no right/wrong answer here. there's so many factors that i can't pretend to know what it takes to make the decisions they do.

while they are very important, i can accept reasons for why certain choices are made.

but what bums me out more than anything else is human rights. non whites and women have struggled so much in this country...but there was still evolution even if it was slow. there was still progression and growth. and this election tells me that 50% of the country has no interest in that. and white people came out in record numbers...and it's not a coincidence this comes on the heel of our first black president.

half this country doesn't care what a man can say or do to a woman. they don't care about pointing to other races and saying they are the problem - it was embraced. i feel the progress made has been halted and may actually go backwards. woman's right to choose - same sex marriage - these things are in play and i can't believe that it is. that's what hurts for me. by saying stuff like "locker room talk" and "i've heard worse" is such a huge pile of sh t. it's that way of thinking that keeps people from evolving. it's not a level playing field.

the only thing i can say is that with the house + senate + president all republican, more things are going to get passed. so there will be action. and the republican party will boast about how things got done.

we will see if the actions taken will benefit this country or not and despite my disappointment and anger, i have to wipe the slate clean and move on. i will judge this new president based on what he does AND what he says since he represents this country to everyone else.

my expectations are low. i fear what's to come. so i have to take it as it comes.

HofstraBBall wrote:

djsunyc wrote:ok - america has spoken and elected trump.

now we all just need to hope for the best. and hope ruth ginsberg is healthy and stays alive.

Agree. Hoping he is more Left socially than he is claimimg. Maybe it's not going to be as bad as I think. Concerns me though, that we may have just made Americans even more unpopular abroad. Was planning on taking my family to Europe next summer. Think I'll wait to see how things pan out. Well I guess the market will have some buying oopurtunities today.

Socially as in you want open borders and trade?

First and foremost I think he is going to make sure the rest of the world respects us again.

#1 Safety of Americans(Military, better vetting and monitoring domestic terrorism/violent criminals)
#2 Jobs

It's only 8yrs. If he has some time left at the tail end he will tackle the rest

Markji wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Can't believe she lost PA, what a complete garbage candidate.
I guess what remains to be seen is how Trump and Republicans work together and if Dems can block a SC nomination like the Reps would have, I already know the answer to that.

Well, I would say this. I know everyone's going to trash Hillary now and say she was deeply flawed. I think her biggest flaw was "going high when they went low" as Michelle Obama put it, though. She tried to keep the discussion at a respectful, presidential level. It's the same mistaken that the 16 Republicans Trump defeated made.

I live in PA - near Pittsburgh. I LOVE Pittsburgh and have always been proud to be part of the state. I'm very disappointed with the state now, though. It seems like it's not the great state I thought it was. We in the Pittsburgh region (and those in the Philly region) tried our best though.

Sorry Bonn, I have been trashing Hillary from day 1. I have never supported her or wanted her, anymore than I supported Trump. What will happen now is all kinds of finger pointing, but this was an anti establishment race. The people have spoken and centrist politicians suck. The Dems should have rallied behind Bernie but didn't have the brains to do so.

In the long term this maybe the best thing that could have happened to the dems, if they can at least hear the message now, because they clearly weren't able to earlier. It may also be a bad thing for Republicans. They can only unite when they have something to root against.

We will see.

You are right Melo... The People wanted change - both the Liberals and Conservatives. The Dems should have rallied behind Bernie but they suppressed the will of the people and connived to put in the old regime party candidate (Hillary). And lost. All the Dem Party leaders should re-sign and let new blood take over.

The GOP won because the GOP Party leaders tried but couldn't stop Trump. That was fortunate for the GOP because Trump had the will of the people behind him.

The GOP may control Congress and the state legislatures and Governors, but IMO, they don't control the Presidency. Nobody controls Trump. He will do what he wants. Hopefully it will work out to be good for the U.S. and the world.

Bernie had so shot. Hillary at least made it somewhat close but Biden would've been closer. Neither are very inspiring nor able to command the respect of other world leaders

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Markji wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Can't believe she lost PA, what a complete garbage candidate.
I guess what remains to be seen is how Trump and Republicans work together and if Dems can block a SC nomination like the Reps would have, I already know the answer to that.

Well, I would say this. I know everyone's going to trash Hillary now and say she was deeply flawed. I think her biggest flaw was "going high when they went low" as Michelle Obama put it, though. She tried to keep the discussion at a respectful, presidential level. It's the same mistaken that the 16 Republicans Trump defeated made.

I live in PA - near Pittsburgh. I LOVE Pittsburgh and have always been proud to be part of the state. I'm very disappointed with the state now, though. It seems like it's not the great state I thought it was. We in the Pittsburgh region (and those in the Philly region) tried our best though.

Sorry Bonn, I have been trashing Hillary from day 1. I have never supported her or wanted her, anymore than I supported Trump. What will happen now is all kinds of finger pointing, but this was an anti establishment race. The people have spoken and centrist politicians suck. The Dems should have rallied behind Bernie but didn't have the brains to do so.

In the long term this maybe the best thing that could have happened to the dems, if they can at least hear the message now, because they clearly weren't able to earlier. It may also be a bad thing for Republicans. They can only unite when they have something to root against.

We will see.

You are right Melo... The People wanted change - both the Liberals and Conservatives. The Dems should have rallied behind Bernie but they suppressed the will of the people and connived to put in the old regime party candidate (Hillary). And lost. All the Dem Party leaders should re-sign and let new blood take over.

The GOP won because the GOP Party leaders tried but couldn't stop Trump. That was fortunate for the GOP because Trump had the will of the people behind him.

The GOP may control Congress and the state legislatures and Governors, but IMO, they don't control the Presidency. Nobody controls Trump. He will do what he wants. Hopefully it will work out to be good for the U.S. and the world.

I think the good will come from politicians realizing how far alienated they are from the people. In the long term, I hope that helps. But for now the democratic party leadership has cost us an SC nominee, I don't hold that against Hillary but I will always hold it against the dems for not backing Bernie when it was obvious the country wanted radical change.

Radical change to socialism/communism is a proven way to hell.
American people may not be a smartest bunch but they are not so stupid to support this.
Millions who emigrated from communist and leftist countries will vote for Devil himself to prevent America slipping left.
Almost 100% of Russian vote for Trump and they know what communism is all about.
Time for Technocrats is coming. Time to cleanup the house.

This. Refer back to pages <100

Welpee wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Markji wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Can't believe she lost PA, what a complete garbage candidate.
I guess what remains to be seen is how Trump and Republicans work together and if Dems can block a SC nomination like the Reps would have, I already know the answer to that.

Well, I would say this. I know everyone's going to trash Hillary now and say she was deeply flawed. I think her biggest flaw was "going high when they went low" as Michelle Obama put it, though. She tried to keep the discussion at a respectful, presidential level. It's the same mistaken that the 16 Republicans Trump defeated made.

I live in PA - near Pittsburgh. I LOVE Pittsburgh and have always been proud to be part of the state. I'm very disappointed with the state now, though. It seems like it's not the great state I thought it was. We in the Pittsburgh region (and those in the Philly region) tried our best though.

Sorry Bonn, I have been trashing Hillary from day 1. I have never supported her or wanted her, anymore than I supported Trump. What will happen now is all kinds of finger pointing, but this was an anti establishment race. The people have spoken and centrist politicians suck. The Dems should have rallied behind Bernie but didn't have the brains to do so.

In the long term this maybe the best thing that could have happened to the dems, if they can at least hear the message now, because they clearly weren't able to earlier. It may also be a bad thing for Republicans. They can only unite when they have something to root against.

We will see.

You are right Melo... The People wanted change - both the Liberals and Conservatives. The Dems should have rallied behind Bernie but they suppressed the will of the people and connived to put in the old regime party candidate (Hillary). And lost. All the Dem Party leaders should re-sign and let new blood take over.

The GOP won because the GOP Party leaders tried but couldn't stop Trump. That was fortunate for the GOP because Trump had the will of the people behind him.

The GOP may control Congress and the state legislatures and Governors, but IMO, they don't control the Presidency. Nobody controls Trump. He will do what he wants. Hopefully it will work out to be good for the U.S. and the world.

I think the good will come from politicians realizing how far alienated they are from the people. In the long term, I hope that helps. But for now the democratic party leadership has cost us an SC nominee, I don't hold that against Hillary but I will always hold it against the dems for not backing Bernie when it was obvious the country wanted radical change.

Radical change to socialism/communism is a proven way to hell.
American people may not be a smartest bunch but they are not so stupid to support this.
Millions who emigrated from communist and leftist countries will vote for Devil himself to prevent America slipping left.
Almost 100% of Russian vote for Trump and they know what communism is all about.
Time for Technocrats is coming. Time to cleanup the house.

Perfect example of how propaganda affects the low information voters. People associate socialism with the "evil empires." You do know that there are a number of socialist countries that exist today that function fairly well. Heck, Canada is a socialist country. Communism and socialism are not synonyms.

Works well in Denmark cos they only have 20 occupants. Canada has how many? Not much. America has 319mil

Much greater chance we wind up like Brazil, Argentina & Venezuela than Denmark under a socialist

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:The people in middle America just voted for a fraud. They also left in place THE ENTIRE POLITICAL SYSTEM that they claim to hate. All those Republicans who have been actually hurting them and making their lives harder are in full power now.

For Trump he is actually in opposition to those very Republicans he's gonna need to get ANYTHING he wants done. How do these fractured Republicans actually govern? When Trump starts asking for the money for the things he promised his voters will the Republicans give him a blank check? This is a CLUSTERPHUCK!!!

White America just voted for a BUSINESSMAN and he's talking about helping big businesses and the RICH with huge tax cuts and deregulation. These voters simply don't understand who they just voted for. The bought the hype Trump was selling but they never actually thought about the policies he stands for. Trump will not be able to force the Republicans in Congress to go along with his bold plans. Trump and his voters are going to find out that they just gave Big Business all the power.

Liberal Democrats living in their comfy urban enclaves need to get out and drive around the rest of the country. You are right about one thing, middle America has spoken, but it is not only whites that need jobs. The relocation of manufacturing and light manufacturing has devastated entire communities and towns leaving only hopelessness. You mock the uneducated Trump supporters, but you do not live where they live. Yes, middle America is not as educated or smart as urban democratic controlled cities, but there are good people there who just want to work and provide for their families, have affordable health care and good schools for their kids. They have ethics and moral values that are a throwback to Mayberry. These are communities where everyone pithes in to help anyone in need. Can you say that about your neighborhood. You can't judge middle America by the 10 second sound bites of Trump supporters you see on CNN. These are real people with real lives in real need. Let's all hope we can navigate a positive path to positive change for the betterment of the most needy sector of our country, the forgotten middle class

Wow beautifully said and exactly what I've been alluding to