holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation. http://www.gallup.com/poll/9442/Election-Polls-Accuracy-Record-Presidential-Elections.aspx (edit)

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

So you are concerned about polls and not about a Republican majority in the Supreme Court allowing laws to change so the Republicans in their districts can systemically close 860 polling stations in minority districts across the South in battleground states, to restrict minorities access to voting..You aren't concerned that the Supreme Court has ushered in Citizen's United to allow the rich both foreign and domestic to influence our election more so than the average citizen..You had zero problem watching Russia weight in on our election process by hacking the DNC databases are releasing vital campaign strategies..And lastly, You had no problem with the FBI releasing critical leaks on the eve of the election to help the republican candidate..But it's the POLLS that keeps you up at night, where we need more transparency...Right...

Great questions Holfresh. Scary years ahead for all of us.

As to the "rigged" election, Trump was right about it being rigged, just not how it's so...Citizens United and the revolving door between Congress and K Street "rigged" our democracy long ago. When a shrewd marketer can "win" the electoral vote using slander, innuendo, overt racism, mysogyny, xenophobia, etc...we have moved into the danger zone. Media failed to inform (not counting NYT obviously). Pollsters failed to measure accurately. Voters failed to turn out.

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation. http://www.gallup.com/poll/9442/Election-Polls-Accuracy-Record-Presidential-Elections.aspx (edit)

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

So you are concerned about polls and not about a Republican majority in the Supreme Court allowing laws to change so the Republicans in their districts can systemically close 860 polling stations in minority districts across the South in battleground states, to restrict minorities access to voting..You aren't concerned that the Supreme Court has ushered in Citizen's United to allow the rich both foreign and domestic to influence our election more so than the average citizen..You had zero problem watching Russia weight in on our election process by hacking the DNC databases are releasing vital campaign strategies..And lastly, You had no problem with the FBI releasing critical leaks on the eve of the election to help the republican candidate..But it's the POLLS that keeps you up at night, where we need more transparency...Right...

Again, why is this a "this or that" argument (false dilemma)? Can't we work on all of these things?
I'm not the opposition.

Start at the top. Why, oh why, did it have to be Hillary Clinton? Yes, she has an impressive resume; yes, she worked hard on the campaign trail. But she was exactly the wrong candidate for this angry, populist moment. An insider when the country was screaming for an outsider. A technocrat who offered fine-tuning when the country wanted to take a sledgehammer to the machine.

She was the Democratic candidate because it was her turn and because a Clinton victory would have moved every Democrat in Washington up a notch. Whether or not she would win was always a secondary matter, something that was taken for granted. Had winning been the party’s number one concern, several more suitable candidates were ready to go. There was Joe Biden, with his powerful plainspoken style, and there was Bernie Sanders, an inspiring and largely scandal-free figure. Each of them would probably have beaten Trump, but neither of them would really have served the interests of the party insiders. …

To try to put over such a nominee while screaming that the Republican is a rightwing monster is to court disbelief. If Trump is a fascist, as liberals often said, Democrats should have put in their strongest player to stop him, not a party hack they’d chosen because it was her turn. Choosing her indicated either that Democrats didn’t mean what they said about Trump’s riskiness, that their opportunism took precedence over the country’s well-being, or maybe both.

Clinton’s supporters among the media didn’t help much, either. It always struck me as strange that such an unpopular candidate enjoyed such robust and unanimous endorsements from the editorial and opinion pages of the nation’s papers, but it was the quality of the media’s enthusiasm that really harmed her. With the same arguments repeated over and over, two or three times a day, with nuance and contrary views all deleted, the act of opening the newspaper started to feel like tuning in to a Cold War propaganda station. Here’s what it consisted of:

• Hillary was virtually without flaws. She was a peerless leader clad in saintly white, a super-lawyer, a caring benefactor of women and children, a warrior for social justice.
• Her scandals weren’t real.
• The economy was doing well / America was already great.
• Working-class people weren’t supporting Trump.
• And if they were, it was only because they were botched humans. Racism was the only conceivable reason for lining up with the Republican candidate.

How did the journalists’ crusade fail? The fourth estate came together in an unprecedented professional consensus. They chose insulting the other side over trying to understand what motivated them. They transformed opinion writing into a vehicle for high moral boasting. What could possibly have gone wrong with such an approach?

Put this question in slightly more general terms and you are confronting the single great mystery of 2016. The American white-collar class just spent the year rallying around a super-competent professional (who really wasn’t all that competent) and either insulting or silencing everyone who didn’t accept their assessment. And then they lost. Maybe it’s time to consider whether there’s something about shrill self-righteousness, shouted from a position of high social status, that turns people away.

The even larger problem is that there is a kind of chronic complacency that has been rotting American liberalism for years, a hubris that tells Democrats they need do nothing different, they need deliver nothing really to anyone – except their friends on the Google jet and those nice people at Goldman. The rest of us are treated as though we have nowhere else to go and no role to play except to vote enthusiastically on the grounds that these Democrats are the “last thing standing” between us and the end of the world. It is a liberalism of the rich, it has failed the middle class, and now it has failed on its own terms of electability. Enough with these comfortable Democrats and their cozy Washington system. Enough with Clintonism and its prideful air of professional-class virtue. Enough!

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation. http://www.gallup.com/poll/9442/Election-Polls-Accuracy-Record-Presidential-Elections.aspx (edit)

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

So you are concerned about polls and not about a Republican majority in the Supreme Court allowing laws to change so the Republicans in their districts can systemically close 860 polling stations in minority districts across the South in battleground states, to restrict minorities access to voting..You aren't concerned that the Supreme Court has ushered in Citizen's United to allow the rich both foreign and domestic to influence our election more so than the average citizen..You had zero problem watching Russia weight in on our election process by hacking the DNC databases are releasing vital campaign strategies..And lastly, You had no problem with the FBI releasing critical leaks on the eve of the election to help the republican candidate..But it's the POLLS that keeps you up at night, where we need more transparency...Right...

Again, why is this a "this or that" argument (false dilemma)? Can't we work on all of these things?
I'm not the opposition.

You're misguided if you think this election was about fixing corruption or polls or "draining the swamp". That's all BS for the masses that bought that tripe. The same people that have been in government are STILL in government but now they have even more power to screw the people.

Please someone explain how things are better today for the people just cuz Trump is President? Trump is just a figurehead and the real power is still in the same hands. There has been no real change except now Big Business is in total control.

Who backed the Republicans that have been in the House and the Senate??? The same Koch Brothers and other Big Business leaders. They could give a crap about "the people "!

While we talk about the wisdom of the founders and the primacy of the Constitution, we should let that Electoral College result sink in and think about when we talk about the US as a democracy, what we are really talking about.

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation. http://www.gallup.com/poll/9442/Election-Polls-Accuracy-Record-Presidential-Elections.aspx (edit)

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

So you are concerned about polls and not about a Republican majority in the Supreme Court allowing laws to change so the Republicans in their districts can systemically close 860 polling stations in minority districts across the South in battleground states, to restrict minorities access to voting..You aren't concerned that the Supreme Court has ushered in Citizen's United to allow the rich both foreign and domestic to influence our election more so than the average citizen..You had zero problem watching Russia weight in on our election process by hacking the DNC databases are releasing vital campaign strategies..And lastly, You had no problem with the FBI releasing critical leaks on the eve of the election to help the republican candidate..But it's the POLLS that keeps you up at night, where we need more transparency...Right...

Again, why is this a "this or that" argument (false dilemma)? Can't we work on all of these things?
I'm not the opposition.

You're misguided if you think this election was about fixing corruption or polls or "draining the swamp". That's all BS for the masses that bought that tripe. The same people that have been in government are STILL in government but now they have even more power to screw the people.

Please someone explain how things are better today for the people just cuz Trump is President? Trump is just a figurehead and the real power is still in the same hands. There has been no real change except now Big Business is in total control.

Who backed the Republicans that have been in the House and the Senate??? The same Koch Brothers and other Big Business leaders. They could give a crap about "the people "!

Nixluva - You don't know and yet you speak with certainty. If you want to give up before he even gets in office that is on you. I wouldn't have given up had Hillary won.
Trump is the first non politician to be in office since when? Was Reagan a politician after acting? We have a chance, I'll take that over a known corrupt quantity.

Reagan was governor of California.

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation.

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

It is not a corruption for monetary and political gain.
This is corruption of people who cannot let go the old cozy world crumbling in front of their wide open eyes.
Mainstream old-fashioned media losing its ground along with bankrupt politicians and preachers of any kind.
Truth and common sense are storming back into the picture pushing millions from convenient social holes.
From obstacles they became a problem. We will see a lot of this on every level from state government, to local, down to corporations.
Too many bloodsuckers to tolerate. Time to make them all make the leaving the hard way.

Just so you know cuz I don't think most of you understand this, but the local governments outside of the big cities are NOT CHANGING. Congress is relatively UNCHANGED!!! In fact all this hype from Trump about "draining the swamp" is utter BS! All of the same politicians are still in charge in RED America. They didn't get rid of their own chosen representatives. All the people who have been there FOR YEARS are still in Washington!!!

Republicans did everything in their power to obstruct so that they could regain power and now that they have it what will they do? Big Tax Cuts? Get rid of Regulation? Basically nothing that really will bring back the thousands of small towns and dying Rust Belt cities in terms of Manufacturing Jobs. These guys are the ones who believed in Outsourcing and allowing Big Business to pay low wages and ship jobs overseas. These same Republicans are the ones who are backed by Big Business and always have been.

We can call this a process. Trump can get things going. People need inspiration. Maybe Obama tried going in that direction but the changes didn't happen. Things got worse - economically, socially, etc.

We can't depend on one person to make things better for us, but together, we can do our part and move forward. Might be a long process but I'm game.

For example, IF Hillary is prosecuted and IF Comey or Podesta are also, we can see a trickle down prosecution like effect. That would at least be a start, give people hope, get people motivated to make things better. Put corruption in prion. Work on our relations with Russia (e.g. trade agreement) and work together more. Where we have been headed lately, it seems to make companies more money, save rich people more money, remove the middle class, conquer the world, remove all kinds of borders (while waging wars next door), etc. That was a dead end street.

Yea? Think those things bolded were better under Bush? Wow. Good post.

Thanks.

If I had to choose between Bush and Obama, I think I would choose Obama.

But you are putting out a false narrative..How is the economy worse now than when Obama met it losing over 800 jobs per month, unemployment rate rockets over 10%, Stock market was at 6700 not at 18000..What are your gauges, what are you looking at???

What has happened to our debt? America, if it was a company (and ironically it almost is), would be bankrupt right now. We are riding a wave of faith and money printing.
They are printing money to no end, inflating the supply (but they have an elegant name for it - Quantitative Easing.) That steals from people. A fair amount of that money goes into the markets, hence why an economy that is not really going up much, has a market that is rocketing. It is basically inflation, a big big bubble waiting to pop. The stock market is not indicative, truly, of the economy, it reflects money coming into it (look at rising P/E's http://www.multpl.com/). And many countries e.g. Saudi Arabia, put LOTS of money into it.

Last I heard, many more people are working PT jobs because they couldn't get FT jobs. And companies love this as then they don't have to pay benefits for FT, but just looking at unemployed doesn't tell the whole story.

Maybe I misunderstood you (and different issues, Bush and Obama as people and then just the economic aspects while president) but what is the false narrative?

Welpee wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation. http://www.gallup.com/poll/9442/Election-Polls-Accuracy-Record-Presidential-Elections.aspx (edit)

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

So you are concerned about polls and not about a Republican majority in the Supreme Court allowing laws to change so the Republicans in their districts can systemically close 860 polling stations in minority districts across the South in battleground states, to restrict minorities access to voting..You aren't concerned that the Supreme Court has ushered in Citizen's United to allow the rich both foreign and domestic to influence our election more so than the average citizen..You had zero problem watching Russia weight in on our election process by hacking the DNC databases are releasing vital campaign strategies..And lastly, You had no problem with the FBI releasing critical leaks on the eve of the election to help the republican candidate..But it's the POLLS that keeps you up at night, where we need more transparency...Right...

Again, why is this a "this or that" argument (false dilemma)? Can't we work on all of these things?
I'm not the opposition.

You're misguided if you think this election was about fixing corruption or polls or "draining the swamp". That's all BS for the masses that bought that tripe. The same people that have been in government are STILL in government but now they have even more power to screw the people.

Please someone explain how things are better today for the people just cuz Trump is President? Trump is just a figurehead and the real power is still in the same hands. There has been no real change except now Big Business is in total control.

Who backed the Republicans that have been in the House and the Senate??? The same Koch Brothers and other Big Business leaders. They could give a crap about "the people "!

Nixluva - You don't know and yet you speak with certainty. If you want to give up before he even gets in office that is on you. I wouldn't have given up had Hillary won.
Trump is the first non politician to be in office since when? Was Reagan a politician after acting? We have a chance, I'll take that over a known corrupt quantity.

Reagan was governor of California.

Plus I don't think Reagan had a history of corruption as a private citizen anywhere near Trump.

From Wikpedia via Google:

5 Presidents had never been elected to public office before becoming President: Zachary Taylor, Ulysses S. Grant, Herbert Hoover, Dwight D. Eisenhower, and president-elect Donald Trump. However, Trump is the only individual to be elected president without any prior political or military experience.

DrAlphaeus wrote:It does look like Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. We shouldn't ignore that. Hillary got more Americans but Trump got more states.

While we talk about the wisdom of the founders and the primacy of the Constitution, we should let that Electoral College result sink in and think about when we talk about the US as a democracy, what we are really talking about.

People who talk about the US as a democracy forget we're actually federal republic. You know, the whole checks and balances thing. There are a few states that are democracies, and Switzerland. Ancient Greece, maybe?

I guess the cons of mob mentality and the uneducated electorate only apply when you lose.

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So, what of these "polls". It was brought up how Brexit was wrong and that our polls were oversampled. Is it another coincidence or is there something to it?
I mean, all of the MSM polls, wrong??? This is probably what Trump meant about corruption.

No one really knows. The polling average had Hillary up by 3.3 and it looks like it's going to be closer to 0.1. Nate Silver at 538 did say there was a pretty high chance (greater than 10%) that Hillary would win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote.

We seem to be near the historically high end regarding result/poll deviation.

As a service, for the sake of future elections, this needs to be looked into and see exactly how these (specific) results were achieved. A part of going forward and healing, is seeing where things are broken and fixing them, making things better all round - more transparent, etc. We need to get back trust in our system. We need more transparency.

We need to be careful, because if polls can easily be influenced, the affect on the outcome of a vote could, in part, steered. Another tool in the chest of corruption.

It is not a corruption for monetary and political gain.
This is corruption of people who cannot let go the old cozy world crumbling in front of their wide open eyes.
Mainstream old-fashioned media losing its ground along with bankrupt politicians and preachers of any kind.
Truth and common sense are storming back into the picture pushing millions from convenient social holes.
From obstacles they became a problem. We will see a lot of this on every level from state government, to local, down to corporations.
Too many bloodsuckers to tolerate. Time to make them all make the leaving the hard way.

Just so you know cuz I don't think most of you understand this, but the local governments outside of the big cities are NOT CHANGING. Congress is relatively UNCHANGED!!! In fact all this hype from Trump about "draining the swamp" is utter BS! All of the same politicians are still in charge in RED America. They didn't get rid of their own chosen representatives. All the people who have been there FOR YEARS are still in Washington!!!

Republicans did everything in their power to obstruct so that they could regain power and now that they have it what will they do? Big Tax Cuts? Get rid of Regulation? Basically nothing that really will bring back the thousands of small towns and dying Rust Belt cities in terms of Manufacturing Jobs. These guys are the ones who believed in Outsourcing and allowing Big Business to pay low wages and ship jobs overseas. These same Republicans are the ones who are backed by Big Business and always have been.

We can call this a process. Trump can get things going. People need inspiration. Maybe Obama tried going in that direction but the changes didn't happen. Things got worse - economically, socially, etc.

We can't depend on one person to make things better for us, but together, we can do our part and move forward. Might be a long process but I'm game.

For example, IF Hillary is prosecuted and IF Comey or Podesta are also, we can see a trickle down prosecution like effect. That would at least be a start, give people hope, get people motivated to make things better. Put corruption in prion. Work on our relations with Russia (e.g. trade agreement) and work together more. Where we have been headed lately, it seems to make companies more money, save rich people more money, remove the middle class, conquer the world, remove all kinds of borders (while waging wars next door), etc. That was a dead end street.

Yea? Think those things bolded were better under Bush? Wow. Good post.

Thanks.

If I had to choose between Bush and Obama, I think I would choose Obama.

But you are putting out a false narrative..How is the economy worse now than when Obama met it losing over 800 jobs per month, unemployment rate rockets over 10%, Stock market was at 6700 not at 18000..What are your gauges, what are you looking at???

What has happened to our debt? America, if it was a company (and ironically it almost is), would be bankrupt right now. We are riding a wave of faith and money printing.
They are printing money to no end, inflating the supply (but they have an elegant name for it - Quantitative Easing.) That steals from people. A fair amount of that money goes into the markets, hence why an economy that is not really going up much, has a market that is rocketing. It is basically inflation, a big big bubble waiting to pop. The stock market is not indicative, truly, of the economy, it reflects money coming into it (look at rising P/E's http://www.multpl.com/). And many countries e.g. Saudi Arabia, put LOTS of money into it.

Last I heard, many more people are working PT jobs because they couldn't get FT jobs. And companies love this as then they don't have to pay benefits for FT, but just looking at unemployed doesn't tell the whole story.

Maybe I misunderstood you (and different issues, Bush and Obama as people and then just the economic aspects while president) but what is the false narrative?

Your description of the economy is false..We were heading into the deepest recessions since the depression..Look it up...The debt is because of the recession...Obama has actually reduced the deficit he walked into, look that up too...

I want Trump Supporters to actually make the case for the Trump Policy Plan and how it's going to work. Most Economists blasted his plan and the numbers don't add up. This is par for the course with Republican Economic Plans. George H.W. Bush called Reagan's plan Voodoo Economics and he was right. Yet the Republicans keep trotting out the same Economic prescriptions that don't work. Also i'd remind everyone that the Congress is the SAME and not some new group of people with a new plan and no corruption. They are all backed by Big Business as they've always been. All of Trump's buddies.