KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

Try 4 in a row.

I’ve been skeptical of Thibs even during the winning streak. All the same signs was there. It’s not just wins and loses. It’s the rigidity and lack of in game flexibility.

I said during our 8 game winning streak, thibs back was against the wall and that’s when he shortened the rotation. But it’s clear that Thibs is not the long term solution for this team. I’m still hoping Thibs proved me wrong please.

Obi was hot 1st half and didn’t get much burn the 2nd half. Asset management falls on the coach because he controls players PT.

Toronto has a roster filled with 6’9 players. But thibs plays EF (shorter non defender) over Obi who was hot. It’s like thibs feel for the game is missing. His pregame prep and planning is on point I’m sure, but during the game……

What good is having all these draft picks if we don’t have a coach or culture that cultivates asset management. Everything is not the players fault. Yes bench talent and overall talent is low. Yes thibs has a challenge on his hands trusting his bench players. I get it. So I’m taking the patient route. But damn thibs show me some kind of in game adjustments. Right now there’s no team in the nba I feel good about winning against. Everybody continues to have all star performances against us.

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

I'm not sure which category I am in after the 8 game winning streak. Certainly quieter. That said, the antagonism coming from the Pro-Thibs camp makes me keep those specific opinions to myself. I've specifically decided not to respond to avoid the same arguments over and over.

I think this team ends up 12 or 13 in the lottery if I am being honest with myself. Not sure if that is the coach or the players. But I don't really have any better answers either. While I honestly think a new generation coach might be more useful here, I don't think there is a coach I can just point to that would fix this team. I see Nick Nurse struggling with his roster and the fact that we outperform them is probably just the fact that he doesn't have a center. Kerr's team is playing like crap.

I don't feel like this team has an offense. Its ISO ball all the time. Maybe drilling defense and ignoring offense is what the team needs. I dunno.

I'm a seller at the trade deadline. Line up that lotto ticket. In retrospect, those winning streaks may have been more luck than skill with teams missing their key players.

I'll acknowledge my bias as it's all about the iso-ball and I hate it. Regardless of my feelings it's pretty obvious when you run iso-ball with good (but not great) players you usually only get average to good results. Randle going at 1/2 the league he looks terrific unless he's off that night... but what's the point when you know to achieve more he would have to be able to do that against KD, Giannis, Lebron with better defensive teams... and he can't so why not run an offense where our fate doesn't come down to Randle and RJ taking turns offensively. Yes iso has it's place and is needed periodically... doesn't have to be 7 seconds or less type of offense - but if Thibs would just sit RJ and Randle down when they hold the ball and iso too much maybe we could be the best version of whatever this mediocre team can be. As much as I've been tough on Randle the past few years - I'm starting to shift and think more importantly we need a coach that will sit anybody down who plays dumb. We may have to start some games 3 vs 5 but shouldn't last too long.

jskinny35 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

I'm not sure which category I am in after the 8 game winning streak. Certainly quieter. That said, the antagonism coming from the Pro-Thibs camp makes me keep those specific opinions to myself. I've specifically decided not to respond to avoid the same arguments over and over.

I think this team ends up 12 or 13 in the lottery if I am being honest with myself. Not sure if that is the coach or the players. But I don't really have any better answers either. While I honestly think a new generation coach might be more useful here, I don't think there is a coach I can just point to that would fix this team. I see Nick Nurse struggling with his roster and the fact that we outperform them is probably just the fact that he doesn't have a center. Kerr's team is playing like crap.

I don't feel like this team has an offense. Its ISO ball all the time. Maybe drilling defense and ignoring offense is what the team needs. I dunno.

I'm a seller at the trade deadline. Line up that lotto ticket. In retrospect, those winning streaks may have been more luck than skill with teams missing their key players.

I'll acknowledge my bias as it's all about the iso-ball and I hate it. Regardless of my feelings it's pretty obvious when you run iso-ball with good (but not great) players you usually only get average to good results. Randle going at 1/2 the league he looks terrific unless he's off that night... but what's the point when you know to achieve more he would have to be able to do that against KD, Giannis, Lebron with better defensive teams... and he can't so why not run an offense where our fate doesn't come down to Randle and RJ taking turns offensively. Yes iso has it's place and is needed periodically... doesn't have to be 7 seconds or less type of offense - but if Thibs would just sit RJ and Randle down when they hold the ball and iso too much maybe we could be the best version of whatever this mediocre team can be. As much as I've been tough on Randle the past few years - I'm starting to shift and think more importantly we need a coach that will sit anybody down who plays dumb. We may have to start some games 3 vs 5 but shouldn't last too long.

So honest question. Are you OK with the coach sitting RJ and Randle if it means losing games? Cause that's what happens when you sit players like you are suggesting. This is a huge grey area and when is a good time and when is it not a good time to do so. I hear a lot of voices to fire coaches but not a ton who are OK with losing a game that's within reach while holding a player accountable (the opposite will be cried about - the coach doesn't know how to sub or put in his best players in close games).

After you sit Randle and then Obi messes up at the same level, do you put Randle back in or sit both Randle and Obi? I know it's an extreme, but do you flip those guys on off court when they make mistakes? Does that work?

I think you can sit younger players within the first couple of years, and it's definitely dependent on their "status". Most coaches want/need to play a top 5 pick as much as they can and let get all of their mistakes out of the way (and those mistakes better not appear at the same rate, fine line on how to figure that out).

What's the purpose of sitting Randle outside of getting him mad? And can you sit a guy extensively with someone who has a $25M contract? Not for long IMO unless you have a long term guy like Pop or Spoelstra. And not if you want the best shot at winning games.

For guys on rookie contracts, you have the one thing they need to get their next contract: playing time. It's your only play and you HAVE to be precise about it.

jskinny35 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

I'm not sure which category I am in after the 8 game winning streak. Certainly quieter. That said, the antagonism coming from the Pro-Thibs camp makes me keep those specific opinions to myself. I've specifically decided not to respond to avoid the same arguments over and over.

I think this team ends up 12 or 13 in the lottery if I am being honest with myself. Not sure if that is the coach or the players. But I don't really have any better answers either. While I honestly think a new generation coach might be more useful here, I don't think there is a coach I can just point to that would fix this team. I see Nick Nurse struggling with his roster and the fact that we outperform them is probably just the fact that he doesn't have a center. Kerr's team is playing like crap.

I don't feel like this team has an offense. Its ISO ball all the time. Maybe drilling defense and ignoring offense is what the team needs. I dunno.

I'm a seller at the trade deadline. Line up that lotto ticket. In retrospect, those winning streaks may have been more luck than skill with teams missing their key players.

I'll acknowledge my bias as it's all about the iso-ball and I hate it. Regardless of my feelings it's pretty obvious when you run iso-ball with good (but not great) players you usually only get average to good results. Randle going at 1/2 the league he looks terrific unless he's off that night... but what's the point when you know to achieve more he would have to be able to do that against KD, Giannis, Lebron with better defensive teams... and he can't so why not run an offense where our fate doesn't come down to Randle and RJ taking turns offensively. Yes iso has it's place and is needed periodically... doesn't have to be 7 seconds or less type of offense - but if Thibs would just sit RJ and Randle down when they hold the ball and iso too much maybe we could be the best version of whatever this mediocre team can be. As much as I've been tough on Randle the past few years - I'm starting to shift and think more importantly we need a coach that will sit anybody down who plays dumb. We may have to start some games 3 vs 5 but shouldn't last too long.

It feels good to hear knick fans start to come around on Thibs. I felt like I was on an island whenever I said anything about Thibs (especially early in the season when Randle and the knicks were rolling), and I love the guy, which is even funnier. I grew up watching 80s and 90s basketball. I love old school basketball and Thibs is old school.

But you guys are spot on. Thibs might not be the problem, but he's not the answer and it might not be his fault (FO has some blame). Pulling RJ and Randle when they are either ISO heavy or doing anything that hurts the team, sit them for a bit, let the bench (when we had a bench lol) bring that energy / ball movement we need. Give Thibs a PF he can manage. Or give Randle a coach who can hold him accountable. Or third option (lipstick on a pig approach), trade the yoots (IQ / Obi) and add a legit star so that Randle isn't the top dog on the team, but rather a complimentary piece. And Obi who's the 8th pick, isn't wasting time playing 11 mins a game. Terrible job of asset management with Obi and Cam.

Heres a stat I heard on the radio (no I did not check if this was correct, because my eyes already said the same thing). But if we are 1-15 when trailing at half, this is a clear sign that this team cannot handle adversity. This is also why we tend to fold in the 4th. Once everything goes wrong, we simply fall apart. Is it the coach fault? I don't know. But I do know, changing the head of the snake is the quickest way for immediate change. And to me, the head of the snake is Thibs or Randle. Randle has the strong dominate and imposing personality. He's a natural leader and even Brunson defers to him a lot. Thibs is also a strong leader with loads of knowledge. Both of these guys should be better than what we are seeing.

Or we sit back and watch a natural tank. It's sad that we are trying to win, and still lose. There are other teams who was trying to lose and they are winning (crazy NBA season). Also what makes me pause on Thibs this entire time, is that there are other coaches and fans who feel the same way we do about their coach. So it's not just the knicks having these problems. And maybe majority of the teams are tanking.

Hold your heads up knick fans. The long-term vision for this team looks better than the current state. So I'll focus on that and hope we can grab an impact player in the upcoming draft / free agency / trades.

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:Bring back Fizdale, Lebron might become available again. Kidding.

Other day i was trying to figure out who was the more horrific head coach? Fizz or Rambis?

And then you got distracted by a shiny thing or the neighbors cat and gave up?
Or do you just roll with the “Woodson” thing and need a nap?

But you tried.

I’d like you to try to make sense

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

I'm not sure which category I am in after the 8 game winning streak. Certainly quieter. That said, the antagonism coming from the Pro-Thibs camp makes me keep those specific opinions to myself. I've specifically decided not to respond to avoid the same arguments over and over.

I think this team ends up 12 or 13 in the lottery if I am being honest with myself. Not sure if that is the coach or the players. But I don't really have any better answers either. While I honestly think a new generation coach might be more useful here, I don't think there is a coach I can just point to that would fix this team. I see Nick Nurse struggling with his roster and the fact that we outperform them is probably just the fact that he doesn't have a center. Kerr's team is playing like crap.

I don't feel like this team has an offense. Its ISO ball all the time. Maybe drilling defense and ignoring offense is what the team needs. I dunno.

I'm a seller at the trade deadline. Line up that lotto ticket. In retrospect, those winning streaks may have been more luck than skill with teams missing their key players.

I'll acknowledge my bias as it's all about the iso-ball and I hate it. Regardless of my feelings it's pretty obvious when you run iso-ball with good (but not great) players you usually only get average to good results. Randle going at 1/2 the league he looks terrific unless he's off that night... but what's the point when you know to achieve more he would have to be able to do that against KD, Giannis, Lebron with better defensive teams... and he can't so why not run an offense where our fate doesn't come down to Randle and RJ taking turns offensively. Yes iso has it's place and is needed periodically... doesn't have to be 7 seconds or less type of offense - but if Thibs would just sit RJ and Randle down when they hold the ball and iso too much maybe we could be the best version of whatever this mediocre team can be. As much as I've been tough on Randle the past few years - I'm starting to shift and think more importantly we need a coach that will sit anybody down who plays dumb. We may have to start some games 3 vs 5 but shouldn't last too long.

So honest question. Are you OK with the coach sitting RJ and Randle if it means losing games? Cause that's what happens when you sit players like you are suggesting. This is a huge grey area and when is a good time and when is it not a good time to do so. I hear a lot of voices to fire coaches but not a ton who are OK with losing a game that's within reach while holding a player accountable (the opposite will be cried about - the coach doesn't know how to sub or put in his best players in close games).

After you sit Randle and then Obi messes up at the same level, do you put Randle back in or sit both Randle and Obi? I know it's an extreme, but do you flip those guys on off court when they make mistakes? Does that work?

I think you can sit younger players within the first couple of years, and it's definitely dependent on their "status". Most coaches want/need to play a top 5 pick as much as they can and let get all of their mistakes out of the way (and those mistakes better not appear at the same rate, fine line on how to figure that out).

What's the purpose of sitting Randle outside of getting him mad? And can you sit a guy extensively with someone who has a $25M contract? Not for long IMO unless you have a long term guy like Pop or Spoelstra. And not if you want the best shot at winning games.

For guys on rookie contracts, you have the one thing they need to get their next contract: playing time. It's your only play and you HAVE to be precise about it.

Toppin does better in games with 20+ minutes. I would get him 20+ minutes even if it means we use a small ball center in Randle.

I like RJ better at the 2. Move him back there. He has comparative advantage on size there. A Tracy McGrady SG. Keep him driving. I like that he is either making his move to the hoop or passing. He is clearly picking up some of Brunson's moves. I like Grimes as much as the next guy, he is better than Fournier, but I wouldn't say he is an All Star type player. I'm not there.

jskinny35 wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Pretty funny to check out the first few pages of this thread with a mob of posters calling for Thibs’ head at 13 games when we were 6 - 7. I notice a lot of those posters aren’t posting much lately. I assume they will return the next time we drop three in a row.

I'm not sure which category I am in after the 8 game winning streak. Certainly quieter. That said, the antagonism coming from the Pro-Thibs camp makes me keep those specific opinions to myself. I've specifically decided not to respond to avoid the same arguments over and over.

I think this team ends up 12 or 13 in the lottery if I am being honest with myself. Not sure if that is the coach or the players. But I don't really have any better answers either. While I honestly think a new generation coach might be more useful here, I don't think there is a coach I can just point to that would fix this team. I see Nick Nurse struggling with his roster and the fact that we outperform them is probably just the fact that he doesn't have a center. Kerr's team is playing like crap.

I don't feel like this team has an offense. Its ISO ball all the time. Maybe drilling defense and ignoring offense is what the team needs. I dunno.

I'm a seller at the trade deadline. Line up that lotto ticket. In retrospect, those winning streaks may have been more luck than skill with teams missing their key players.

I'll acknowledge my bias as it's all about the iso-ball and I hate it. Regardless of my feelings it's pretty obvious when you run iso-ball with good (but not great) players you usually only get average to good results. Randle going at 1/2 the league he looks terrific unless he's off that night... but what's the point when you know to achieve more he would have to be able to do that against KD, Giannis, Lebron with better defensive teams... and he can't so why not run an offense where our fate doesn't come down to Randle and RJ taking turns offensively. Yes iso has it's place and is needed periodically... doesn't have to be 7 seconds or less type of offense - but if Thibs would just sit RJ and Randle down when they hold the ball and iso too much maybe we could be the best version of whatever this mediocre team can be. As much as I've been tough on Randle the past few years - I'm starting to shift and think more importantly we need a coach that will sit anybody down who plays dumb. We may have to start some games 3 vs 5 but shouldn't last too long.

So honest question. Are you OK with the coach sitting RJ and Randle if it means losing games? Cause that's what happens when you sit players like you are suggesting. This is a huge grey area and when is a good time and when is it not a good time to do so. I hear a lot of voices to fire coaches but not a ton who are OK with losing a game that's within reach while holding a player accountable (the opposite will be cried about - the coach doesn't know how to sub or put in his best players in close games).

After you sit Randle and then Obi messes up at the same level, do you put Randle back in or sit both Randle and Obi? I know it's an extreme, but do you flip those guys on off court when they make mistakes? Does that work?

I think you can sit younger players within the first couple of years, and it's definitely dependent on their "status". Most coaches want/need to play a top 5 pick as much as they can and let get all of their mistakes out of the way (and those mistakes better not appear at the same rate, fine line on how to figure that out).

What's the purpose of sitting Randle outside of getting him mad? And can you sit a guy extensively with someone who has a $25M contract? Not for long IMO unless you have a long term guy like Pop or Spoelstra. And not if you want the best shot at winning games.

For guys on rookie contracts, you have the one thing they need to get their next contract: playing time. It's your only play and you HAVE to be precise about it.

Martin - I am 100% okay with sitting players in efforts to teach or correct bad habits. I think you are suggesting that it's more okay to sit Obi, IQ and other young players due to their age and need for correction - and I do understand this. When I think of Fiz's coaching for K. Knox I felt he was more focused on boosting his confidence vs finding that balance between encouraging and drawing a line when needed. Knox may have ended up a bust either way but I do think a good coach can make a significant difference and change the trajectory of a player. That season I thought Fiz failed miserably.

I think if you hold Randle accountable a few times he would adjust because he likes to be out there playing. I just feel that Thibs doesn't do it anywhere close to enough and this is a part of why Randle makes the same/repeated mistakes over and over. Spinovers, holding the ball too long before passing out of double team, not running back on defense when flustered, playing at 90s half court pace, dribbling instead of moving and cutting... I could go on but the point is he still makes a lot of these same mistakes and I believe a part of it is because he doesn't get taken out to sit and ponder, feel mad, and then adjust when he goes back in.

Last game Randle and Fournier got into it as someone posted - seems like he left that exchange mad/annoyed at Fournier. Holding one another accountable is team sports and while a MJ or J. Butler may take it too far at times - we don't really have enough of that IMO. Brunson helps for sure.

I get he is a veteran but think it's worse to let your vet/team leader get a pass while most of the younger and more influential players don't (or as much). I think RJ needs this as well. As for what to do when Randle and Obi mess up - I think it's mostly about what is trying to be taught. When the effort is there I think that earns you some leeway (eg take a bad shot, space on a rotation). What does it say when he pulls Obi so quickly but Randle seems to get a pass for multiple errors simply because he's better?

The purpose of sitting him is to get him to realize he has bad habits (as most players do) that negatively impact the team and often the outcome. He should have been taught this early on but to be fair - he always played a lesser/supportive role before coming here. So it needed to happen when he arrived but we didn't have Thibs at first. We leave Randle to his own devices we should expect to see what we've seen in the past - a very good player that loses it sometimes, shoots inconsistently and thinks he is the star of NBA Jam 1996 edition. Lay in to him a few times and he sinks or he swims. What's the alternative - we can't coach or get on anybody? I get this is a different generation then you or myself grew up on - but the better teams still hold their players accountable in some form. In fact the best players often demand to be held accountable.

Coach talking to him about trusting his teammates that he will receive the ball back is critical as he dribbles way too much while solid players like Grimes sit at the 3pt line waiting until there is 3-4 seconds on the shot clock left for the kickout. How about Brunson dribbles, set the spacing and Randle still gets his touches. Best half I have ever seen was last year when we lost in LA - 1st half Randle moved the ball, hustled consistently and played uptempo. That should be the standard we try to achieve as it brings out the best in us and hides many of our limitations.

I'm in pretty much agreement with everything you've said.

Are you OK with more losing if that's what it takes? I don't want infer anything you've not said directly.

You and I both know the answer to that for the other 95% of Knicks fans: it's a hard NO, right? The reality of what most fans go thru is that the coach - and perhaps any coach - is immediately on the hot seat if there is a really bad loss? Is that reality or not so much?

I think it's kinda stupid that Obi only got 10 minutes last game. But I also wanted to win the game and Randle is clearly the better player to get you to that point. Obi was having an incredible distance shooting night; dude also had 1 rebound in 11 minutes and that was the Knicks' weakest part of their game while Randle was beasting in rebounds the whole game while having 8 assists and lots of points.

So here is the scenario: At the beginning of the 4th the game was tied, Obi enters game and Toronto goes on an 11-0 run over the first 3.5 minutes of 4th.... and all the caveats that maybe this is not Obi's fault but it happens at the same time he comes in. I don't recall exactly what happened at beginning of 4th but it seemed to be TOR dominating on the glass with their bigs getting baskets: https://www.espn.com/nba/playbyplay/_/gameId/401468855

Gameflow: http://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20230122&game=NYKTOR

As a coach, do you let it ride or put your best players back in and try to right the ship?

The Knicks got the worst of both worlds. Brunson and then Randle come in and, give or take, Toronto goes on another 11-2 run.

If you let it ride and Toronto goes on a 20-0 run, everyone is yelling at the coach cause why didn't he put in his best players again?

Not good decisions all around.