foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Knicks could have 3 nice young kids that can all handle the ball and run plays: IQ, Deuce, Roka to go along with Rose for another year or 2.

It'll be fun to watch then develop.

My fear is Thibs. Thibs doesn't come across as a development coach. Thibs is known for having a tight rotation while trusting vets over rookies. Now can Thibs change? sure. I believe we all can improve over time. But it's still a risk to have Thibs lead the development of young players. What has Obi improved on under Thibs? Can Thibs change from having a tight rotation to a larger rotation and still win games? Maybe you guys have more faith in Thibs than I do. But I worry our bottleneck in player development is Thibs. For example, will Thibs sit Randle when he has a bad game or seems emotionally distrut? and replace Randle for Obi in certain situations? In the past he went with Taj over Obi. Again, I'm hoping for the best, but we finally have a deap young team with potential NBA star talent. Is Thibs the right coach for this young team?

This is not a good argument. At all.

If you cherry pick a sample size of one player, you can show a poor argument that looks in your favor but that's not how making a substantive argument works.

Use RJ, Grimes, IQ, the young Rose on Chicago, second year player KAT, Mitch. Did those players get better from Day 1 of Thibs and throughout?

Randle has been a problem this year. But he was also very, very good last year under Thibs. Was it player or coach? Or both? Or neither?

Focus all you want on Obi but Obi has a lot of Obi problems and it showed out in day 1, year 1 and still does now. Same with Wiggins. Took Wiggins like 5-6 years and a very stable environment before he showed out.

Also recognize that there is a balance between trying to win and development and that some players develop at different paces.

Make your case only using Obi as an example and you won't get very far.

Development is not just done with the head coach. It has to be throughout an organization for it to be really effective. Has NY provided their players with enough of a development process; one part of that is certainly playing time but let's not fall into the world where minutes given is the only indicator that either the head coach or team is developing players. And quite frankly, development happens over a multi year period as well as in season. Most players use the offseason to make the biggest jumps in development too.

I can't quite place my issue with Thibs - but it is not the lack of development for young guys. Of course this is just a fan's take with no inside knowledge - but he appears to be the type that is mainly focused on his formula and the task at hand over the bigger picture. This works when things are going well - but in a season like this one with extended losing streaks and where there is very little chance of even a play-in game - some more focus on the bigger picture would seem applicable.

Case in point - the Knicks played the Jazz last night and prior to the game were 5 games out of the 10th spot play-in with 12 games to play. I'm unsure of the value of playing Randle and Burks each 34+ minutes while playing IQ only 22.5 minutes , Obi (~13 minutes) and McBride (~3 minutes). I would think that more playing time in regular NBA games will help not only in development but rather in the assessment process of what moves to make in the offseason rather than kicking the can down the road even further. Guessing that Obi will generally not see much of the light of day as Randle is the locker room Alpha and will very rarely see reduced minutes unless either traded or an "A" player is ever brought in. But why wait any longer on McBride to see what you have in NBA games with the ball in his hands for extended minutes in a string of games? Will it hurt the team to sit/reduce Burks minutes at the point?

I think you summed it up pretty well, while using a recent game against the jazz as up to date proof that Thibs is stuck on stability and structure with a team that’s still searching for an identity. Randle was having an off day from the jump. He got his money, not getting back on defense yet we sit the yoots who got us back into the game and subbed in Randle and Burks.

I’m pointing the finger at:
1. The FO
2. Thibs
3. Randle

For this seasons failures.

blkexec wrote:Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.

As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.

If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.

When does Obi show up and earn his minutes? He is showing it in spurts and also showing some very poor play in spurts. Why aren't we asking Why hasn't Obi gone out and grabbed the minutes?

You get no pass by just referring to Obi BTW. Start out with RJ. And then tell us what you they they are doing with Mitch.

When you are ready for a real discussion and can move off of Taj and Rose getting 40 minutes when it's actually not a thing but just a sideshow sentence, then step up to the plate, otherwise you are just treading water going nowhere.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.

As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.

If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.

When does Obi show up and earn his minutes? He is showing it in spurts and also showing some very poor play in spurts. Why aren't we asking Why hasn't Obi gone out and grabbed the minutes?

You get no pass by just referring to Obi BTW. Start out with RJ. And then tell us what you they they are doing with Mitch.

When you are ready for a real discussion and can move off of Taj and Rose getting 40 minutes when it's actually not a thing but just a sideshow sentence, then step up to the plate, otherwise you are just treading water going nowhere.

Mmmmmm that’s ok. I’m hoping for the best. I’m waiting to see if thibs is learning from his substitution mistakes like not letting the yoots finish the game but rather going back to the same starting 5 which may have caused us the game.

You are picking at a side thread and not the main point which is thibs and if he’s the right coach to to balance winning and developing the yoots. I don’t see the point in dwelling on Obi if he’s not getting any playing time because Randle is on the team and Thibs refuse to play them together. So that’s a FO problem that drafted him, along with thibs who co-signed.

Then stop making him the focus of your argument. You dwelt on him but I can see why you would back off of it, it's pointless.

Let us know what you thought of Knox and how all of those minutes he got in his first season and how that helped him.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.

As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.

If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.

When does Obi show up and earn his minutes? He is showing it in spurts and also showing some very poor play in spurts. Why aren't we asking Why hasn't Obi gone out and grabbed the minutes?

You get no pass by just referring to Obi BTW. Start out with RJ. And then tell us what you they they are doing with Mitch.

When you are ready for a real discussion and can move off of Taj and Rose getting 40 minutes when it's actually not a thing but just a sideshow sentence, then step up to the plate, otherwise you are just treading water going nowhere.

Mmmmmm that’s ok. I’m hoping for the best. I’m waiting to see if thibs is learning from his substitution mistakes like not letting the yoots finish the game but rather going back to the same starting 5 which may have caused us the game.

You are picking at a side thread and not the main point which is thibs and if he’s the right coach to to balance winning and developing the yoots. I don’t see the point in dwelling on Obi if he’s not getting any playing time because Randle is on the team and Thibs refuse to play them together. So that’s a FO problem that drafted him, along with thibs who co-signed.

Then stop making him the focus of your argument. You dwelt on him but I can see why you would back off of it, it's pointless.

Let us know what you thought of Knox and how all of those minutes he got in his first season and how that helped him.

It helped the FO make a trade. It helped thibs out when looking at knox stats with those mins. It helped the fans out who wanted to see what knox looks like with extended minutes. And it helped knox himself to understand what he needs to improve on.

Come on Martin I know you are a smart guy. If you think extra mins turns you into a star player, or if you think that’s how I’m thinking, then we are wasting time with this discussion.

I’ve never seen you play but if thibs gives you extra mins, I doubt u will become a star player. But fans will see if you are trash or not. No idea where u are going with this knox statement on extra mins. But before we talk about deuce mins can deuce get knox mins first? I’ll even take franks mins.

Who is even talking about star player? Why'd you even bring that up? Cause I haven't

We are talking about developing a player. We'd all like to see all the guys get extra minutes, but realistically just that is not necessarily development.

How do you develop a player in the context of a team environment.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.

As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.

If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.

When does Obi show up and earn his minutes? He is showing it in spurts and also showing some very poor play in spurts. Why aren't we asking Why hasn't Obi gone out and grabbed the minutes?

You get no pass by just referring to Obi BTW. Start out with RJ. And then tell us what you they they are doing with Mitch.

When you are ready for a real discussion and can move off of Taj and Rose getting 40 minutes when it's actually not a thing but just a sideshow sentence, then step up to the plate, otherwise you are just treading water going nowhere.

Mmmmmm that’s ok. I’m hoping for the best. I’m waiting to see if thibs is learning from his substitution mistakes like not letting the yoots finish the game but rather going back to the same starting 5 which may have caused us the game.

You are picking at a side thread and not the main point which is thibs and if he’s the right coach to to balance winning and developing the yoots. I don’t see the point in dwelling on Obi if he’s not getting any playing time because Randle is on the team and Thibs refuse to play them together. So that’s a FO problem that drafted him, along with thibs who co-signed.

Then stop making him the focus of your argument. You dwelt on him but I can see why you would back off of it, it's pointless.

Let us know what you thought of Knox and how all of those minutes he got in his first season and how that helped him.

It helped the FO make a trade. It helped thibs out when looking at knox stats with those mins. It helped the fans out who wanted to see what knox looks like with extended minutes. And it helped knox himself to understand what he needs to improve on.

Come on Martin I know you are a smart guy. If you think extra mins turns you into a star player, or if you think that’s how I’m thinking, then we are wasting time with this discussion.

I’ve never seen you play but if thibs gives you extra mins, I doubt u will become a star player. But fans will see if you are trash or not. No idea where u are going with this knox statement on extra mins. But before we talk about deuce mins can deuce get knox mins first? I’ll even take franks mins.

Who is even talking about star player? Why'd you even bring that up? Cause I haven't

We are talking about developing a player. We'd all like to see all the guys get extra minutes, but realistically just that is not necessarily development.

How do you develop a player in the context of a team environment.

It’s ok to disagree. We can’t agree on everything.

I don’t see how a player given 0-3 mins helps their development vs someone given extra mins. The guy with extended mins will develop faster than a guy getting 0-3 mins. That’s assuming the two guys are the same. Bringing up knox was terrible. That’s one player. And knox should’ve went to the gleague like deuce. It might have helped his career. But you cant compare knox and deuce. Or really any two players because each player develops at a different rate.

You are right about the 0-3 minutes. It's why coaches typically wait until a player can be given a full slot of minutes across multiple games.

The extra minutes stuff is just fan boy development of a player and very thin.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.

As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.

If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.

When does Obi show up and earn his minutes? He is showing it in spurts and also showing some very poor play in spurts. Why aren't we asking Why hasn't Obi gone out and grabbed the minutes?

You get no pass by just referring to Obi BTW. Start out with RJ. And then tell us what you they they are doing with Mitch.

When you are ready for a real discussion and can move off of Taj and Rose getting 40 minutes when it's actually not a thing but just a sideshow sentence, then step up to the plate, otherwise you are just treading water going nowhere.

Mmmmmm that’s ok. I’m hoping for the best. I’m waiting to see if thibs is learning from his substitution mistakes like not letting the yoots finish the game but rather going back to the same starting 5 which may have caused us the game.

You are picking at a side thread and not the main point which is thibs and if he’s the right coach to to balance winning and developing the yoots. I don’t see the point in dwelling on Obi if he’s not getting any playing time because Randle is on the team and Thibs refuse to play them together. So that’s a FO problem that drafted him, along with thibs who co-signed.

Then stop making him the focus of your argument. You dwelt on him but I can see why you would back off of it, it's pointless.

Let us know what you thought of Knox and how all of those minutes he got in his first season and how that helped him.

It helped the FO make a trade. It helped thibs out when looking at knox stats with those mins. It helped the fans out who wanted to see what knox looks like with extended minutes. And it helped knox himself to understand what he needs to improve on.

Come on Martin I know you are a smart guy. If you think extra mins turns you into a star player, or if you think that’s how I’m thinking, then we are wasting time with this discussion.

I’ve never seen you play but if thibs gives you extra mins, I doubt u will become a star player. But fans will see if you are trash or not. No idea where u are going with this knox statement on extra mins. But before we talk about deuce mins can deuce get knox mins first? I’ll even take franks mins.

Who is even talking about star player? Why'd you even bring that up? Cause I haven't

We are talking about developing a player. We'd all like to see all the guys get extra minutes, but realistically just that is not necessarily development.

How do you develop a player in the context of a team environment.

It’s ok to disagree. We can’t agree on everything.

I don’t see how a player given 0-3 mins helps their development vs someone given extra mins. The guy with extended mins will develop faster than a guy getting 0-3 mins. That’s assuming the two guys are the same. Bringing up knox was terrible. That’s one player. And knox should’ve went to the gleague like deuce. It might have helped his career. But you cant compare knox and deuce. Or really any two players because each player develops at a different rate.

You are right about the 0-3 minutes. It's why coaches typically wait until a player can be given a full slot of minutes across multiple games.

The extra minutes stuff is just fan boy development of a player and very thin.

Exactly - why plug in McBride as Thibs has him some Burks to play that full slot of minutes 'till the bitter end.

blkexec wrote:

You are right about the 0-3 minutes. It's why coaches typically wait until a player can be given a full slot of minutes across multiple games.

The extra minutes stuff is just fan boy development of a player and very thin.

Exactly - why plug in McBride as Thibs has him some Burks to play that full slot of minutes 'till the bitter end.

Martin, you ask if he can hit a shot and he did.

Did anybody notice how Burks looks better next to IQ. When he’s playing his natural MJ position, he turns into MJ which is what this team needed in the 4th ALL SEASON. Instead with Burks playing PG, it stunts his impact on the team. If only thibs had trust IQ earlier, we wouldn’t be in this position. 🤦‍♂️

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/q/quickim01/splits/2022

Dude had months worth of shooting like 35% He was terrible... the fact that Thibs DID stuck with him at all shows a lot. Nobody was sitting on the bench ready to rescue the season... cmon

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.

As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.

If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.

When does Obi show up and earn his minutes? He is showing it in spurts and also showing some very poor play in spurts. Why aren't we asking Why hasn't Obi gone out and grabbed the minutes?

You get no pass by just referring to Obi BTW. Start out with RJ. And then tell us what you they they are doing with Mitch.

When you are ready for a real discussion and can move off of Taj and Rose getting 40 minutes when it's actually not a thing but just a sideshow sentence, then step up to the plate, otherwise you are just treading water going nowhere.

Mmmmmm that’s ok. I’m hoping for the best. I’m waiting to see if thibs is learning from his substitution mistakes like not letting the yoots finish the game but rather going back to the same starting 5 which may have caused us the game.

You are picking at a side thread and not the main point which is thibs and if he’s the right coach to to balance winning and developing the yoots. I don’t see the point in dwelling on Obi if he’s not getting any playing time because Randle is on the team and Thibs refuse to play them together. So that’s a FO problem that drafted him, along with thibs who co-signed.

Then stop making him the focus of your argument. You dwelt on him but I can see why you would back off of it, it's pointless.

Let us know what you thought of Knox and how all of those minutes he got in his first season and how that helped him.

It helped the FO make a trade. It helped thibs out when looking at knox stats with those mins. It helped the fans out who wanted to see what knox looks like with extended minutes. And it helped knox himself to understand what he needs to improve on.

Come on Martin I know you are a smart guy. If you think extra mins turns you into a star player, or if you think that’s how I’m thinking, then we are wasting time with this discussion.

I’ve never seen you play but if thibs gives you extra mins, I doubt u will become a star player. But fans will see if you are trash or not. No idea where u are going with this knox statement on extra mins. But before we talk about deuce mins can deuce get knox mins first? I’ll even take franks mins.

Who is even talking about star player? Why'd you even bring that up? Cause I haven't

We are talking about developing a player. We'd all like to see all the guys get extra minutes, but realistically just that is not necessarily development.

How do you develop a player in the context of a team environment.

It’s ok to disagree. We can’t agree on everything.

I don’t see how a player given 0-3 mins helps their development vs someone given extra mins. The guy with extended mins will develop faster than a guy getting 0-3 mins. That’s assuming the two guys are the same. Bringing up knox was terrible. That’s one player. And knox should’ve went to the gleague like deuce. It might have helped his career. But you cant compare knox and deuce. Or really any two players because each player develops at a different rate.

You are right about the 0-3 minutes. It's why coaches typically wait until a player can be given a full slot of minutes across multiple games.

The extra minutes stuff is just fan boy development of a player and very thin.

Completely disagree. Yes, extended minutes are ideal. But 3 minutes is helluva lot better than no minutes. Of course, there are cases where the number of minutes doesn't matter and it's clear the bulk of a players development will take place in the off-season. But I firmly believes that every single rep matters for most rookies development.

That helps...

Is that enough to make a player better and work on stuff? Hard to see how it could be

TPercy wrote:I don’t really buy this kid tbh. Put up as many numbers as you want in g league but so far when he gets minutes he’s nothing special.

This isn't free form street ball and he's not Ja Morant. Looks like the kid is being told to go stand in the corner on offense and play tough man D.....and like a good soldier thst's what he's doing.

Clean wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/Tom_Piccolo/status/1507051341054631941

Keep sleeping on my boy.

I’m pro-Miles.

Nalod wrote:Nobody here is anti deuce. Dudes be like “I don’t understand why”………
We just trying to explain a theory we see.

Also Thibs don’t care about what fans want or “show” us things. THere is a rhyme and reason to what they do. If they are wining, nobody complains. If not, fans question.

some of you don’t like the answers. But its just Theory.
When deuce hits his open shots, MAYBE they will stop burying him in the corner. He earns his minutes by doing other things. He only had one really good season in college and we took him for the potential we see in the Gleague.

Especially for any young player at any level when they first come up, you put them in simple situations and ask them to do 1 thing. Corner 3 as an outlet is just that.

Build on it.