tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

You have to be across the board here bonn.. he is shooting 46% from the field this year.. there are wing players doing better than that, much better, he shot 35% from the field last year.. if he is shooting that well from two and only 38% from three then you have to question his shot selection...

PF's should be shooting closer to 50%..

plus bonn, minny has never had a winning record with him.. if that is going to be held against spree and other players.. love is no different.. he is a fine player.. a superb rebounder but I would hesitate talking number one option with him, until he adjust his shot selection..

he has taken a little over 1100 shots this year, 412 have been threes.. if he is shooting 12% points higher taking two point shots than the % should be a lot lower when it comes to threes.. 35% of his shots were threes, should be lower..

So you just care about the FG% and not whether it was a 2 or a three pointer? If he stopped shooting 3s altogether and had an FG% over 50, you'd like him much more?
With the creation of the 3 point line, FG% became outdated.

I wouldn't say outdated, because at some point your % is what it is... and it does have some telling value... my point is this. if he stopped shooting threes altogether, how much better and efficient would he be? that is my point.. now if he shot threes at a clip around 42-44% well then I can understand that, but that is such a huge difference what he is shooting now to justify him taking 35% of his shots behind the arc.. so yea, I would like him even more as a #1 option if he took the shot he made much more efficiently more of the time....

But hitting 3s at 38% counts the same as hitting 2s at 57%
Hypothetically, if an average defensive team shot nothing but 3 pointers (no 2s, no FTs) and hit 38% of them, they'd probably go 82-0 or pretty close to that.
Obviously that situation won't ever play out but you haven't presented an argument against someone shooting 3s at 38%

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

Yeah, I tried to make this idea simpler but separating the %s for 2s and 3s but TS% is the better stat to look at.

BONN I completely understand.. but my question to you is this.... if He took less threes would he not be a more efficient and even better option on offense... we are talking about a 12% difference.. so what I did is I ran some numbers he is taking 6 threes per game at 38% and 12 shots from 2 at 50% and if he took no threes it really would come close to being the same almost exact.... so you are correct it doesn't hurt his point production or efficiency I stand corrected... I guess the other things we can argue is the advantage of scoring points in the paint and being closer to the basket, that is another topic tho...

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

Yeah, I tried to make this idea simpler but separating the %s for 2s and 3s but TS% is the better stat to look at.

BONN I completely understand.. but my question to you is this.... if He took less threes would he not be a more efficient and even better option on offense... we are talking about a 12% difference.. so what I did is I ran some numbers he is taking 6 threes per game at 38% and 12 shots from 2 at 50% and if he took no threes it really would come close to being the same almost exact.... so you are correct it doesn't hurt his point production or efficiency I stand corrected... I guess the other things we can argue is the advantage of scoring points in the paint and being closer to the basket, that is another topic tho...

Well, no, he'd be less efficient because 38% of 3s is 1.14 points per possession (not points per shot but points per possession). The league average is around 1.00. So he's helping his team use its possessions efficiently. Basically, on average, every 7 3s he takes, he's giving his team an extra point compared to what an average use of those possessions would be. It's also a more efficient use of possessions than any of the 30 NBA teams average - the Heat lead the league at 1.10 points per possession.
What matters isn't FG%. That's just a myopic, outdated stat. When it's useful, that's because it slightly correlates with stats that actually are useful like TS% and points per possession. What really matters is how efficiently your team uses its possessions.

what are you saying no to? I said it doesn't hurt his average or efficiency? i said that after I ran the numbers..

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

Yeah, I tried to make this idea simpler but separating the %s for 2s and 3s but TS% is the better stat to look at.

BONN I completely understand.. but my question to you is this.... if He took less threes would he not be a more efficient and even better option on offense... we are talking about a 12% difference.. so what I did is I ran some numbers he is taking 6 threes per game at 38% and 12 shots from 2 at 50% and if he took no threes it really would come close to being the same almost exact.... so you are correct it doesn't hurt his point production or efficiency I stand corrected... I guess the other things we can argue is the advantage of scoring points in the paint and being closer to the basket, that is another topic tho...

Well, no, he'd be less efficient because 38% of 3s is 1.14 points per possession (not points per shot but points per possession). The league average is around 1.00. So he's helping his team use its possessions efficiently. Basically, on average, every 7 3s he takes, he's giving his team an extra point compared to what an average use of those possessions would be. It's also a more efficient use of possessions than any of the 30 NBA teams average - the Heat lead the league at 1.10 points per possession.
What matters isn't FG%. That's just a myopic, outdated stat. When it's useful, that's because it slightly correlates with stats that actually are useful like TS% and points per possession. What really matters is how efficiently your team uses its possessions.

what are you saying no to? I said it doesn't hurt his average or efficiency? i said that after I ran the numbers..

No to your question in bold. I realize now that you later said it doesn't hurt his average or efficiency. (It actually helps substantially.)

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

actually I really don't use the Ts argument although I don't dissagree with it's use as DK is excellent at breaking that down..

But there are some things that can't be ignored no matter what advanced metric you use.. now I will state this.. DK has used advanced stats to show how a player like gallo is more efficient than carmelo. Historically Gallo has a better TS than carmelo... so do you agree with this? would love to hear the answer..

again, this is why TS has it's place, it is part of an analysis, not the end... I have a hard time believing that if love shot more two point shots which he does 12% higher than he does 3's that his TS would not be better... if the numbers show different, please display them..

now I understand the value of threes, but not when the % lags that much.. in other words if love shot two's at 45% and threes at 38% then I could understand how shooting more threes can level the playing field.....

that is my point.... Now if you can show me how love who shoots 12% higher from twos is better off taking more threes, you have a believer....

Of course Gallo is more efficient than Melo. Just look at his TS%. Though his last 2 years (that he played) were not as good. I also think there is a diminished returns issue with him but I am not sure about that (would like to see more stats for diminished returns).

I don't think you know where I stand on Melo. Melo has the potential of being great if he can get his TS closer to 60. I have said this many times. I believe that he is forcing shots that bring down his efficiency. That is why players like Durant are in a different league.

You ask about the justification of 2's vs 3's and the justification based on FG%. I actually read a statistical analysis about that and where the 3 is a net positive or negative. I will try to find that. However, this is already factored into TS.

I am pretty sure though that at 38.6 vs. 50.6 it is a significant net positive. Just the simple math of net points would show this.

I am sorry I don't want to hear anything about potential from a guy going into year 13.. the stats pretty much show that players are what they are after about 3- 5 years in the league... now some players do adjust due to injury or natural progression, but this is season 13.. I don't share that hope...

I am pretty sure though that at 38.6 vs. 50.6 it is a significant net positive. Just the simple math of net points would show this.

actually I ran some numbers and I hope I am not oversimplifying the process, again DK is great at this.. and if love shot no threes at all he would still be around the same PPG.. 35% of his shots are from three that is 6 per game, 38% of 6 = 2.28 shots made.. multiply that by three and that is almost 7 points per..

now if he took no threes and those 6 shots were at 50% which he shoots from two, that would be 3 shots made.. 3*2 =6.. so he would be losing almost a point per game... so it didn't hurt his PPG... which is why I love numbers( I am an accountant) and why having a debate and understanding of one's point of view is a better teaching tool for all then calling people haters.... I seek understanding, and knowledge when it comes to basketball debates regardless of what your view is.

I stand corrected...

His last 2 years were actually quite efficient (56+). His first half season he was at 57.5 (which is really good). His second year was his bad TS% year (52.5) and that year happened to be his best USG : AST rate, fewer shots and more passing but widely considered his worst year.

See the comparison numbers that I posted before. He can just be even more efficient if he stopped those long contested 2's.

The Houston Rockets pretty much take all their shots from within 15 feet and beyond the arc. That comes from the study of efficiency and eliminating the low efficient long 2's.

Can he go from 56 to 58-60. Of course he could its a very small margin and required adjustment. He has to want to and buy into a philosophy that eliminates those few shots. If he stays here, there is no way that Pjax will let him jack those up. If he sticks to what he is good at, he is a ridiculous shooter especially when not forced and off ball movement. His 3 point % this year is 41% which is phenomenal. And that is with all the silly heat checks (as dk refers to it). Eliminating those will just increase his % to a number that is even greater than this year.

The numbers don't lie.

His regular season WS's is an excellent .172 and should be even better. However, his playoff scoring mentality is really bad and he forces way too many shots against good defenders trying to out street ball them. That is a combination of bad coaching, bad personnel (though an overrated excuse) and sheer ignorance.

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

actually I really don't use the Ts argument although I don't dissagree with it's use as DK is excellent at breaking that down..

But there are some things that can't be ignored no matter what advanced metric you use.. now I will state this.. DK has used advanced stats to show how a player like gallo is more efficient than carmelo. Historically Gallo has a better TS than carmelo... so do you agree with this? would love to hear the answer..

again, this is why TS has it's place, it is part of an analysis, not the end... I have a hard time believing that if love shot more two point shots which he does 12% higher than he does 3's that his TS would not be better... if the numbers show different, please display them..

now I understand the value of threes, but not when the % lags that much.. in other words if love shot two's at 45% and threes at 38% then I could understand how shooting more threes can level the playing field.....

that is my point.... Now if you can show me how love who shoots 12% higher from twos is better off taking more threes, you have a believer....

Of course Gallo is more efficient than Melo. Just look at his TS%. Though his last 2 years (that he played) were not as good. I also think there is a diminished returns issue with him but I am not sure about that (would like to see more stats for diminished returns).

I don't think you know where I stand on Melo. Melo has the potential of being great if he can get his TS closer to 60. I have said this many times. I believe that he is forcing shots that bring down his efficiency. That is why players like Durant are in a different league.

You ask about the justification of 2's vs 3's and the justification based on FG%. I actually read a statistical analysis about that and where the 3 is a net positive or negative. I will try to find that. However, this is already factored into TS.

I am pretty sure though that at 38.6 vs. 50.6 it is a significant net positive. Just the simple math of net points would show this.

I am sorry I don't want to hear anything about potential from a guy going into year 13.. the stats pretty much show that players are what they are after about 3- 5 years in the league... now some players do adjust due to injury or natural progression, but this is season 13.. I don't share that hope...

I am pretty sure though that at 38.6 vs. 50.6 it is a significant net positive. Just the simple math of net points would show this.

actually I ran some numbers and I hope I am not oversimplifying the process, again DK is great at this.. and if love shot no threes at all he would still be around the same PPG.. 35% of his shots are from three that is 6 per game, 38% of 6 = 2.28 shots made.. multiply that by three and that is almost 7 points per..

now if he took no threes and those 6 shots were at 50% which he shoots from two, that would be 3 shots made.. 3*2 =6.. so he would be losing almost a point per game... so it didn't hurt his PPG... which is why I love numbers( I am an accountant) and why having a debate and understanding of one's point of view is a better teaching tool for all then calling people haters.... I seek understanding, and knowledge when it comes to basketball debates regardless of what your view is.

I stand corrected...

His last 2 years were actually quite efficient (56+). His first half season he was at 57.5 (which is really good). His second year was his bad TS% year (52.5) and that year happened to be his best USG : AST rate, fewer shots and more passing but widely considered his worst year.

See the comparison numbers that I posted before. He can just be even more efficient if he stopped those long contested 2's.

The Houston Rockets pretty much take all their shots from within 15 feet and beyond the arc. That comes from the study of efficiency and eliminating the low efficient long 2's.

Can he go from 56 to 58-60. Of course he could its a very small margin and required adjustment. He has to want to and buy into a philosophy that eliminates those few shots. If he stays here, there is no way that Pjax will let him jack those up. If he sticks to what he is good at, he is a ridiculous shooter especially when not forced and off ball movement. His 3 point % this year is 41% which is phenomenal. And that is with all the silly heat checks (as dk refers to it). Eliminating those will just increase his % to a number that is even greater than this year.

The numbers don't lie.

His regular season WS's is an excellent .172 and should be even better. However, his playoff scoring mentality is really bad and he forces way too many shots against good defenders trying to out street ball them. That is a combination of bad coaching, bad personnel (though an overrated excuse) and sheer ignorance.

well we can't ignore his teams record.. not that it may be all his fault, but as a guy taking the most shots and having the highest usage rate( I think other than rubio) it behooves him to take better shots... I am just not sure I want my big man taking 7 threes per game unless he is hitting them at a clip over 40% at least.. I know some people will point to dirk, but he doesnt shoot as many threes as love..

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

actually I really don't use the Ts argument although I don't dissagree with it's use as DK is excellent at breaking that down..

But there are some things that can't be ignored no matter what advanced metric you use.. now I will state this.. DK has used advanced stats to show how a player like gallo is more efficient than carmelo. Historically Gallo has a better TS than carmelo... so do you agree with this? would love to hear the answer..

again, this is why TS has it's place, it is part of an analysis, not the end... I have a hard time believing that if love shot more two point shots which he does 12% higher than he does 3's that his TS would not be better... if the numbers show different, please display them..

now I understand the value of threes, but not when the % lags that much.. in other words if love shot two's at 45% and threes at 38% then I could understand how shooting more threes can level the playing field.....

that is my point.... Now if you can show me how love who shoots 12% higher from twos is better off taking more threes, you have a believer....

Of course Gallo is more efficient than Melo. Just look at his TS%. Though his last 2 years (that he played) were not as good. I also think there is a diminished returns issue with him but I am not sure about that (would like to see more stats for diminished returns).

I don't think you know where I stand on Melo. Melo has the potential of being great if he can get his TS closer to 60. I have said this many times. I believe that he is forcing shots that bring down his efficiency. That is why players like Durant are in a different league.

You ask about the justification of 2's vs 3's and the justification based on FG%. I actually read a statistical analysis about that and where the 3 is a net positive or negative. I will try to find that. However, this is already factored into TS.

I am pretty sure though that at 38.6 vs. 50.6 it is a significant net positive. Just the simple math of net points would show this.

I am sorry I don't want to hear anything about potential from a guy going into year 13.. the stats pretty much show that players are what they are after about 3- 5 years in the league... now some players do adjust due to injury or natural progression, but this is season 13.. I don't share that hope...

I am pretty sure though that at 38.6 vs. 50.6 it is a significant net positive. Just the simple math of net points would show this.

actually I ran some numbers and I hope I am not oversimplifying the process, again DK is great at this.. and if love shot no threes at all he would still be around the same PPG.. 35% of his shots are from three that is 6 per game, 38% of 6 = 2.28 shots made.. multiply that by three and that is almost 7 points per..

now if he took no threes and those 6 shots were at 50% which he shoots from two, that would be 3 shots made.. 3*2 =6.. so he would be losing almost a point per game... so it didn't hurt his PPG... which is why I love numbers( I am an accountant) and why having a debate and understanding of one's point of view is a better teaching tool for all then calling people haters.... I seek understanding, and knowledge when it comes to basketball debates regardless of what your view is.

I stand corrected...

His last 2 years were actually quite efficient (56+). His first half season he was at 57.5 (which is really good). His second year was his bad TS% year (52.5) and that year happened to be his best USG : AST rate, fewer shots and more passing but widely considered his worst year.

See the comparison numbers that I posted before. He can just be even more efficient if he stopped those long contested 2's.

The Houston Rockets pretty much take all their shots from within 15 feet and beyond the arc. That comes from the study of efficiency and eliminating the low efficient long 2's.

Can he go from 56 to 58-60. Of course he could its a very small margin and required adjustment. He has to want to and buy into a philosophy that eliminates those few shots. If he stays here, there is no way that Pjax will let him jack those up. If he sticks to what he is good at, he is a ridiculous shooter especially when not forced and off ball movement. His 3 point % this year is 41% which is phenomenal. And that is with all the silly heat checks (as dk refers to it). Eliminating those will just increase his % to a number that is even greater than this year.

The numbers don't lie.

His regular season WS's is an excellent .172 and should be even better. However, his playoff scoring mentality is really bad and he forces way too many shots against good defenders trying to out street ball them. That is a combination of bad coaching, bad personnel (though an overrated excuse) and sheer ignorance.

well we can't ignore his teams record.. not that it may be all his fault, but as a guy taking the most shots and having the highest usage rate( I think other than rubio) it behooves him to take better shots... I am just not sure I want my big man taking 7 threes per game unless he is hitting them at a clip over 40% at least.. I know some people will point to dirk, but he doesnt shoot as many threes as love..

I was talking about Melo above not Love. Those were actually Melo's numbers that I was referring to :-)

The Win Loss records are quantified by WP's and WS's (and others). Team's record cannot be blamed on a player if he is holding his weight statistically. However, defensive liabilities can factor into it as well and I think that advanced metrics have a ways to go in measuring defense.

I have no problem with any player at any position taking efficient shots.

oh, honestly I thought you were talking about love, but yea, that does fit carmelo, but love's teams have not won and i don't necessarily buy the holding your weight statistically argument.. then you would have to prove that the other guys aren't....

As far as efficient shots, sure take them if they are there, but is 38% efficient from three point range?

mreinman wrote:38.6 percent (Love) from 3 is extremely efficient. As Bonn stated, its the equivalent of 57 percent from 2.

41 percent for Melo is off the charts. That is also what coach K did with him in the olympics. Melo took very few contested 2's in the olympics.

And it is proven if the other guys are contributing, we can just look at their efficiency and their overall wins they produce.

I have been following basketball closely since the mid 80's but I have only been studying advanced metrics for a couple of years. They are fascinating and I never stop trying to learn and read more about it.

i wonder how the metrics account for long rebounds off of bricked threes that lead to the opponent getting a relatively easy fast break conversion? i have seen this phenomenon too many times when watching the knicks.

i would think there would have to be a penalty for missing threes at 62% just as a player is rewarded for making 38% of them.

is that a valid question/point?

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:38.6 percent (Love) from 3 is extremely efficient. As Bonn stated, its the equivalent of 57 percent from 2.

41 percent for Melo is off the charts. That is also what coach K did with him in the olympics. Melo took very few contested 2's in the olympics.

And it is proven if the other guys are contributing, we can just look at their efficiency and their overall wins they produce.

I have been following basketball closely since the mid 80's but I have only been studying advanced metrics for a couple of years. They are fascinating and I never stop trying to learn and read more about it.

i wonder how the metrics account for long rebounds off of bricked threes that lead to the opponent getting a relatively easy fast break conversion? i have seen this phenomenon too many times when watching the knicks.

i would think there would have to be a penalty for missing threes at 62% just as a player is rewarded for making 38% of them.

is that a valid question/point?

yea, one other thing is that Ts factors in FT's right.. well he is not getting to the line shooting threes right? so if he took more two point shots where he shoots 50%, isn't there a chance he draws more fouls? I just think it makes more sense to take the most shots you shoot the higher percentage at..

I just think operating closer to the basket opens up more avenues to facilitate than from behind the arc....

I just think 38% from three is just mediocre.... the same thing holds true for carmelo.. shooting 44% isn't necessarily bad but if you are taking over 20 shots like carmelo is, then it is not good.

love is taking 6 threes a game.. that is a lot....