smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Very few players in the league could lead the Knicks to a 54 win season with chandler and JR are their next best players. Melo does need to step up in the playoffs but he has absolutely proven to be a star in this league. We will see if he can continue to improve. This is a big year as he should have a little more help with Bargnani.

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins... this myth that carmelo dragged the knicks to 54 wins is hilarious...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

So you're saying Melo had nothing to do with those 54 wins (despite taking all those inefficient shots), it was JR's doing. So you genuinely believe that we won 54 game INSPITE of Melo?

It was weird how you disappeared during that win streak at the end of the season...

you're missing the point here... during the regular season you want to develop chemistry, cohesion, resilience. melo simply goes on a hot streak or two during the regular season, at least half the time against inferior opponents, and does so at the expense of the things i just listed that you need to have in order to become a true playoff team. he contributes virtually nothing to the building of a playoff team by anything he does during the regular season. this has been the pattern his entire pro career except maybe one season with billups.

it should not be surprising that when you face stiffer competition he is going to be exposed? he's a one-trick pony and that is just not going to be good enough, especially when you have defenders who are capable of guarding him one on one and drive him into even worse efficiency. he is not worth a penny over 14 million dollars but he is expecting twice that... and wants help to boot?!? you just can't make this **** up.

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Very few players in the league could lead the Knicks to a 54 win season with chandler and JR are their next best players. Melo does need to step up in the playoffs but he has absolutely proven to be a star in this league. We will see if he can continue to improve. This is a big year as he should have a little more help with Bargnani.

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins... this myth that carmelo dragged the knicks to 54 wins is hilarious...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

So you're saying Melo had nothing to do with those 54 wins (despite taking all those inefficient shots), it was JR's doing. So you genuinely believe that we won 54 game INSPITE of Melo?

It was weird how you disappeared during that win streak at the end of the season...

you're missing the point here... during the regular season you want to develop chemistry, cohesion, resilience. melo simply goes on a hot streak or two during the regular season, at least half the time against inferior opponents, and does so at the expense of the things i just listed that you need to have in order to become a true playoff team. he contributes virtually nothing to the building of a playoff team by anything he does during the regular season. this has been the pattern his entire pro career except maybe one season with billups.

it should not be surprising that when you face stiffer competition he is going to be exposed? he's a one-trick pony and that is just not going to be good enough, especially when you have defenders who are capable of guarding him one on one and drive him into even worse efficiency. he is not worth a penny over 14 million dollars but he is expecting twice that... and wants help to boot?!? you just can't make this **** up.

Your argument is really that he does it "half the time against inferior opponents", really? Dude this is the NBA, everyone can play and defend. On top of it, you have no specific data in mind you are going off of, it is just a weak assumption on your part. Come on.

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Very few players in the league could lead the Knicks to a 54 win season with chandler and JR are their next best players. Melo does need to step up in the playoffs but he has absolutely proven to be a star in this league. We will see if he can continue to improve. This is a big year as he should have a little more help with Bargnani.

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins... this myth that carmelo dragged the knicks to 54 wins is hilarious...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

So you're saying Melo had nothing to do with those 54 wins (despite taking all those inefficient shots), it was JR's doing. So you genuinely believe that we won 54 game INSPITE of Melo?

It was weird how you disappeared during that win streak at the end of the season...

you're missing the point here... during the regular season you want to develop chemistry, cohesion, resilience. melo simply goes on a hot streak or two during the regular season, at least half the time against inferior opponents, and does so at the expense of the things i just listed that you need to have in order to become a true playoff team. he contributes virtually nothing to the building of a playoff team by anything he does during the regular season. this has been the pattern his entire pro career except maybe one season with billups.

it should not be surprising that when you face stiffer competition he is going to be exposed? he's a one-trick pony and that is just not going to be good enough, especially when you have defenders who are capable of guarding him one on one and drive him into even worse efficiency. he is not worth a penny over 14 million dollars but he is expecting twice that... and wants help to boot?!? you just can't make this **** up.

Your argument is really that he does it "half the time against inferior opponents", really? Dude this is the NBA, everyone can play and defend. On top of it, you have no specific data in mind you are going off of, it is just a weak assumption on your part. Come on.

math is not your friend it seems. it's an epidemic around here, i am discovering.

if a league has 30 teams then half of those teams are going to be inferior, or less than 41 wins. that the playoffs reward 16 teams-- or more than half-- with playoff berths, does not mean that there are yet no 15 inferior teams. and since the EC is the inferior conference, and the knicks play the majority of their games in that conference, that means that their opposition is assuredly inferior half the time. moreover, since it is a team game and a collective effort, your "everyone can play and defend" is disingenuous. the eye test alone shows the falseness of the assertion, while the records of half the teams back this up.

paraphrasing, in a league with an even number of teams you will always have half who are inferior and half who are superior, excluding those teams who win 41 games.

savvy? please say yes

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Very few players in the league could lead the Knicks to a 54 win season with chandler and JR are their next best players. Melo does need to step up in the playoffs but he has absolutely proven to be a star in this league. We will see if he can continue to improve. This is a big year as he should have a little more help with Bargnani.

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins... this myth that carmelo dragged the knicks to 54 wins is hilarious...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

So you're saying Melo had nothing to do with those 54 wins (despite taking all those inefficient shots), it was JR's doing. So you genuinely believe that we won 54 game INSPITE of Melo?

It was weird how you disappeared during that win streak at the end of the season...

you're missing the point here... during the regular season you want to develop chemistry, cohesion, resilience. melo simply goes on a hot streak or two during the regular season, at least half the time against inferior opponents, and does so at the expense of the things i just listed that you need to have in order to become a true playoff team. he contributes virtually nothing to the building of a playoff team by anything he does during the regular season. this has been the pattern his entire pro career except maybe one season with billups.

it should not be surprising that when you face stiffer competition he is going to be exposed? he's a one-trick pony and that is just not going to be good enough, especially when you have defenders who are capable of guarding him one on one and drive him into even worse efficiency. he is not worth a penny over 14 million dollars but he is expecting twice that... and wants help to boot?!? you just can't make this **** up.

Your argument is really that he does it "half the time against inferior opponents", really? Dude this is the NBA, everyone can play and defend. On top of it, you have no specific data in mind you are going off of, it is just a weak assumption on your part. Come on.

math is not your friend it seems. it's an epidemic around here, i am discovering.

if a league has 30 teams then half of those teams are going to be inferior, or less than 41 wins. that the playoffs reward 16 teams-- or more than half-- with playoff berths, does not mean that there are yet no 15 inferior teams. and since the EC is the inferior conference, and the knicks play the majority of their games in that conference, that means that their opposition is assuredly inferior half the time. moreover, since it is a team game and a collective effort, your "everyone can play and defend" is disingenuous. the eye test alone shows the falseness of the assertion, while the records of half the teams back this up.

paraphrasing, in a league with an even number of teams you will always have half who are inferior and half who are superior, excluding those teams who win 41 games.

savvy? please say yes

You completely missed the point. You are suggesting his hot streaks are more often against inferior competition and I am saying you have no metrics to suggest that. It seems like your bases for this argument is he is in the eastern conference and the eastern conference has fewer strong teams. Seems to forget he dominated just the same in the western conference. I am saying his performance has no baring on the teams he played, and you have no evidence to suggest otherwise, just some silly theory. It seems you are just trying to approach the playoff failures from a different angle would has been beat to death and is really reaching.

azamatbagatov wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Lessons in objectivity, for those who need tutelage in banter and being all bout dat life:

tkf wrote:when I speak about carmelo I do so objectively.

give him credit for what? what did we accomplish? that is my first question

caremlo has too limited of a game to be a #1 or even a good #2.. he honestly needs to make about 14 mil a year so you can surround him with players that can cover his flaws..

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

other than this site, there aren't many who thinks he is a top 10 player... ESPN doesn't think so... and I think they were generous with 15..

but no my thought process is not to pay 29 mil to a clown is is not worth 29 mil... simple... and plain....

Actually I don't want a trade, I want him to opt out and go away.. that would be great for me...

I honestly with all my heart hopes he sours on NY this year, and kobe talks him into coming to the lakers where they can fight each other over the next few years for shots and win 46 games in the west, with another first round elimination...... that would be a win-win for me...

for me it is simple. I want the guy gone.. he is a bum, and he wants 29 mil.. LOL.. if you can't see that extending him will ruin the knicks long term, then really there is nothing more to discuss..

3 times? really?

LOL NICE ONE @ jrod,

nice one you too azamat, but i did not know wish to go through pain of deleting your quote

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Very few players in the league could lead the Knicks to a 54 win season with chandler and JR are their next best players. Melo does need to step up in the playoffs but he has absolutely proven to be a star in this league. We will see if he can continue to improve. This is a big year as he should have a little more help with Bargnani.

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins... this myth that carmelo dragged the knicks to 54 wins is hilarious...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

So you're saying Melo had nothing to do with those 54 wins (despite taking all those inefficient shots), it was JR's doing. So you genuinely believe that we won 54 game INSPITE of Melo?

It was weird how you disappeared during that win streak at the end of the season...

you're missing the point here... during the regular season you want to develop chemistry, cohesion, resilience. melo simply goes on a hot streak or two during the regular season, at least half the time against inferior opponents, and does so at the expense of the things i just listed that you need to have in order to become a true playoff team. he contributes virtually nothing to the building of a playoff team by anything he does during the regular season. this has been the pattern his entire pro career except maybe one season with billups.

it should not be surprising that when you face stiffer competition he is going to be exposed? he's a one-trick pony and that is just not going to be good enough, especially when you have defenders who are capable of guarding him one on one and drive him into even worse efficiency. he is not worth a penny over 14 million dollars but he is expecting twice that... and wants help to boot?!? you just can't make this **** up.

Your argument is really that he does it "half the time against inferior opponents", really? Dude this is the NBA, everyone can play and defend. On top of it, you have no specific data in mind you are going off of, it is just a weak assumption on your part. Come on.

math is not your friend it seems. it's an epidemic around here, i am discovering.

if a league has 30 teams then half of those teams are going to be inferior, or less than 41 wins. that the playoffs reward 16 teams-- or more than half-- with playoff berths, does not mean that there are yet no 15 inferior teams. and since the EC is the inferior conference, and the knicks play the majority of their games in that conference, that means that their opposition is assuredly inferior half the time. moreover, since it is a team game and a collective effort, your "everyone can play and defend" is disingenuous. the eye test alone shows the falseness of the assertion, while the records of half the teams back this up.

paraphrasing, in a league with an even number of teams you will always have half who are inferior and half who are superior, excluding those teams who win 41 games.

savvy? please say yes

You completely missed the point. You are suggesting his hot streaks are more often against inferior competition and I am saying you have no metrics to suggest that. It seems like your bases for this argument is he is in the eastern conference and the eastern conference has fewer strong teams. Seems to forget he dominated just the same in the western conference. I am saying his performance has no baring on the teams he played, and you have no evidence to suggest otherwise, just some silly theory.

lets try this again:

1) every season you have 30 teams you have 15 teams who are .500 or less. yes or no?
2) every season the nba rewards mediocrity by allowing 16 teams into the playoffs. yes or no?
3) in the recent past the eastern conference has had a greater aggregate of teams with inferior records than western teams. yes or no?
4) the knicks play the majority of their games against eastern conference teams. yes or no?
5) carmelo anthony in 2012-13 played a majority of his games against eastern conference teams, the majority of which are sub .500 teams. last season he played against 9 eastern conference teams and 6 western conference teams which had 41 or fewer wins. 32 games against eastern conference teams and 12 games against western conference teams for a grand total of 44 games against opponents whose records were 41 games or fewer. yes or no?

the answer to all these questions is "yes."

hence:

what the numbers suggest is that he accrues his "empty calorie" numbers in the regular season against a majority of 41-win and less opponents. this is the trend. if you insist on breaking it down on a game by game basis i may find time to do so.

what his playoff numbers suggest is that, when faced with superior competition, ie. teams with better-than 41-win records, he comes up short. if you insist on breaking it down on a game by game basis i may find time to do so.

in the meantime i would suggest that a general picture of his performance is compelling evidence for the particulars you seem eager to poo-poo as some silly theory.

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Very few players in the league could lead the Knicks to a 54 win season with chandler and JR are their next best players. Melo does need to step up in the playoffs but he has absolutely proven to be a star in this league. We will see if he can continue to improve. This is a big year as he should have a little more help with Bargnani.

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins... this myth that carmelo dragged the knicks to 54 wins is hilarious...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

So you're saying Melo had nothing to do with those 54 wins (despite taking all those inefficient shots), it was JR's doing. So you genuinely believe that we won 54 game INSPITE of Melo?

It was weird how you disappeared during that win streak at the end of the season...

you're missing the point here... during the regular season you want to develop chemistry, cohesion, resilience. melo simply goes on a hot streak or two during the regular season, at least half the time against inferior opponents, and does so at the expense of the things i just listed that you need to have in order to become a true playoff team. he contributes virtually nothing to the building of a playoff team by anything he does during the regular season. this has been the pattern his entire pro career except maybe one season with billups.

it should not be surprising that when you face stiffer competition he is going to be exposed? he's a one-trick pony and that is just not going to be good enough, especially when you have defenders who are capable of guarding him one on one and drive him into even worse efficiency. he is not worth a penny over 14 million dollars but he is expecting twice that... and wants help to boot?!? you just can't make this **** up.

Your argument is really that he does it "half the time against inferior opponents", really? Dude this is the NBA, everyone can play and defend. On top of it, you have no specific data in mind you are going off of, it is just a weak assumption on your part. Come on.

math is not your friend it seems. it's an epidemic around here, i am discovering.

if a league has 30 teams then half of those teams are going to be inferior, or less than 41 wins. that the playoffs reward 16 teams-- or more than half-- with playoff berths, does not mean that there are yet no 15 inferior teams. and since the EC is the inferior conference, and the knicks play the majority of their games in that conference, that means that their opposition is assuredly inferior half the time. moreover, since it is a team game and a collective effort, your "everyone can play and defend" is disingenuous. the eye test alone shows the falseness of the assertion, while the records of half the teams back this up.

paraphrasing, in a league with an even number of teams you will always have half who are inferior and half who are superior, excluding those teams who win 41 games.

savvy? please say yes

You completely missed the point. You are suggesting his hot streaks are more often against inferior competition and I am saying you have no metrics to suggest that. It seems like your bases for this argument is he is in the eastern conference and the eastern conference has fewer strong teams. Seems to forget he dominated just the same in the western conference. I am saying his performance has no baring on the teams he played, and you have no evidence to suggest otherwise, just some silly theory.

lets try this again:

1) every season you have 30 teams you have 15 teams who are .500 or less. yes or no?
2) every season the nba rewards mediocrity by allowing 16 teams into the playoffs. yes or no?
3) in the recent past the eastern conference has had a greater aggregate of teams with inferior records than western teams. yes or no?
4) the knicks play the majority of their games against eastern conference teams. yes or no?
5) carmelo anthony in 2012-13 played a majority of his games against eastern conference teams, the majority of which are sub .500 teams. last season he played against 9 eastern conference teams and 6 western conference teams which had 41 or fewer wins. 32 games against eastern conference teams and 12 games against western conference teams for a grand total of 44 games against opponents whose records were 41 games or fewer. yes or no?

the answer to all these questions is "yes."

hence:

what the numbers suggest is that he accrues his "empty calorie" numbers in the regular season against a majority of 41-win and less opponents. this is the trend. if you insist on breaking it down on a game by game basis i may find time to do so.

what his playoff numbers suggest is that, when faced with superior competition, ie. teams with better-than 41-win records, he comes up short. if you insist on breaking it down on a game by game basis i may find time to do so.

in the meantime i would suggest that a general picture of his performance is compelling evidence for the particulars you seem eager to poo-poo as some silly theory.

Exactly what I thought. Another funny way to say he has failed in the playoffs. Yes he has only won 3 playoff series, everyone knows this. These empty numbers you speak of are the case with every player who plays in the eastern conference, not just carmelo. You guys are really reaching for stuff.

while it is true that melo did not drop so many good buckets in the playoffs,

how many players can you think of that did not do good things until ONE DAY, THEY WENT FAR, AND IT WAS GREAT AND THEY WON IT ALL?

i can't really name any, but i know that there are similar examples and you need to get out there and find them,

melo is after it and he will get it, hopefully it will be with us. real talk.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Lessons in objectivity, for those who need tutelage in banter and being all bout dat life:

tkf wrote:when I speak about carmelo I do so objectively.

give him credit for what? what did we accomplish? that is my first question

caremlo has too limited of a game to be a #1 or even a good #2.. he honestly needs to make about 14 mil a year so you can surround him with players that can cover his flaws..

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

other than this site, there aren't many who thinks he is a top 10 player... ESPN doesn't think so... and I think they were generous with 15..

but no my thought process is not to pay 29 mil to a clown is is not worth 29 mil... simple... and plain....

Actually I don't want a trade, I want him to opt out and go away.. that would be great for me...

I honestly with all my heart hopes he sours on NY this year, and kobe talks him into coming to the lakers where they can fight each other over the next few years for shots and win 46 games in the west, with another first round elimination...... that would be a win-win for me...

for me it is simple. I want the guy gone.. he is a bum, and he wants 29 mil.. LOL.. if you can't see that extending him will ruin the knicks long term, then really there is nothing more to discuss..

Other than using harsh language, what's the problem?

You're not really an english professor, right? All that sounds perfectly objective to you, based on stats and shooting % and the like? Really?

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Lessons in objectivity, for those who need tutelage in banter and being all bout dat life:

tkf wrote:when I speak about carmelo I do so objectively.

give him credit for what? what did we accomplish? that is my first question

caremlo has too limited of a game to be a #1 or even a good #2.. he honestly needs to make about 14 mil a year so you can surround him with players that can cover his flaws..

YOU ARE forgetting the great start that guys like jason kidd had, JR had a career year, that helped the knicks get to 54 wins...

And BTW chandler does have a ring, starting at center for DAllas...difference is, their franchise player is flat out better than ours... hands down..

other than this site, there aren't many who thinks he is a top 10 player... ESPN doesn't think so... and I think they were generous with 15..

but no my thought process is not to pay 29 mil to a clown is is not worth 29 mil... simple... and plain....

Actually I don't want a trade, I want him to opt out and go away.. that would be great for me...

I honestly with all my heart hopes he sours on NY this year, and kobe talks him into coming to the lakers where they can fight each other over the next few years for shots and win 46 games in the west, with another first round elimination...... that would be a win-win for me...

for me it is simple. I want the guy gone.. he is a bum, and he wants 29 mil.. LOL.. if you can't see that extending him will ruin the knicks long term, then really there is nothing more to discuss..

Other than using harsh language, what's the problem?

You're not really an english professor, right? All that sounds perfectly objective to you, based on stats and shooting % and the like? Really?