CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

I guess I have to ask, where was Melo's help? Kidd didn't score in the playoffs. Flu was dominated when he played d and his offense was nonexistent. JR couldn't do anything positive. KMart was ok but isn't much of an offensive threat and needed a body as big as his heart on d. Shump, Prigs, and Felton had some moments where they were ok but it was inconsistent. Cope was much more of a presence in Indy but didn't get much time(maybe because he didn't score a point in the celts series?). Also, tear Durant's labrum and have him play against D West and see how effective he is. I believe aside from Westbrook the Thunder were healthy. I don't think Martin or Ibaka had good series but they weren't hurt, coming back from injury or facing surgery after the series.

you insist on this line of thinking-- melo is the one who should be the help and both he and woodson should have been working on making melo a better teammate during the regular season. but either woodson is not a good enough teacher or melo is simply uncoachable.

they were exposed as fool's gold regular season performers.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

First and foremost Durant is a better player then Melo. This isn't a comparison on who is a better player. But it is a comparison on situations and circumstances. 2nd you have to elaborate more on the "Melo had help, much more then Durant did comment". Do you mean overall in his career or this past playoffs? 3rd you forget that Melo was playing with a screwed up shoulder throughout the playoffs. Durant also played 44mins a game in the playoffs 4min per game more then Melo. Of course I doubt he would put up 30-9-6, but as I have mentioned he has put up 30-8.5-3-2 in the past & 27-6-4-2 in the past.

Regardless, we were told that Melo failed in the playoffs because he wasn't a superstar but a co-star and wasn't a saber metric basketball player. That not having enough help was an excuse. But then there is Durant who is a superstar, who is one of the best saber metric basketball players on the planet, who averaged 30pts 9rebs 6ast. All that led to was 3-6 once Westbrook went down and getting dominated in the 2nd rd. I think its clear to see what the x factor is between the 2 different parallels.

durant is more efficient and has been improving on making his teammates better. but losing westbrook was too much, especially against a huge team like memphis.

durant was drafted but melo decimated the team he wanted to be traded to instead of waiting for free agency. if melo knew his actual value to a team instead of chasing top money and having a delusional value of himself he could have been surrounded by a much more solid and deep team.

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:This is where I have to call B.S. Sometimes teams win despite not measuring up to some prescribed statistic. The Knicks won 54 games and likely would've won more with better health. I don't wanna hear any crap about negative sum players and all this techno babble about TS%. Those are all interesting measurements but what matters most is that your team wins. ONLY ONE TEAM was better in the East last year during the regular season. The only thing that seems to have stopped the Knicks was players breaking down. When the Knicks were relatively healthy they kicked everyone in the teeth except for the Bulls. This team lost to the Pacers playing its worst offensive BB of the year for this team.

This team needed to retool and upgrade and they did. AB provides a needed boost to the teams offensive capabilities and that's what failed this team in the playoffs last year. While it's true this team needed to defend better and rebound better the biggest failure was the lack of scoring. The over-reliance on ISO play and not being able to knock down open shots. So it's important that Woody help AB to give more effort on the boards and on defense, but it's also important that AB score the ball more efficiently and that is mostly going to be about shot selection. Woody has to make sure AB is taking better shots. Having a little less attention from the D will help him as well. AB will also help open things up for Melo too.

regular-season fool's gold teams like the knicks will get exposed in the real season. they struggled mightily against a rondo-less celtics squad. then they were unceremoniously booted in 6 games against a younger, defense-first, superiorly-coached pacers team.

you use the regular season as a means to forge a playoff team, not merely to desperately pile up wins for the highest seed possible, if, again, it is at the price of remaining unprepared for playoff competition.

here is an axiom my fellow knick fans should always bear in mind as the regular season unfolds:

IT IS NOT THAT YOU WIN IT IS HOW YOU WIN THAT MATTERS.

how many times did i repeat this phrase? plenty-- i even had it as my sig. was it dismissed by the "a win is a win" notion? yes. but as with all axioms it proved itself true. the knicks were not prepared to go deep into the playoffs.

some basic changes need to be made if this team is going to do better in the playoffs next year.

hint: selfishness = predictability

dk, woodson is an enabler, it was a big problem of his here in Atlanta.... he hasn't learned, or I guess it is the way he is most comfortable with coaching..

the selfishness will continue because our so called best player is selfish and the guy that is supposed to check that is an enabler..... go figure man...

Couple thoughts......

TKF......you keep referring to Woodson as an enabler and have also referred to him as a clown. Care to elaborate? I'm not really big on the character assassination thing that anonymous fans sometimes do on boards......poor form IMO.

DK......"How you win" is great in the context of teams, coaches and players. There is also cliche's such as "find a way". They know their game plan and how it was properly or improperly executed....and what they need to work on. From a fan perspective......"how they win" means very little, as we are not privy to how they have strategized and/or executed the game plan.

we see their game plan because we see the game. to deny the fan of the ability to understand the team's strategy and tactics is to simply invalidate the fan's eyes and understanding, and while we're at it commentators such as kenny, chuck, shaq, clyde, hahn, kelly, van gundy, etc. etc. is that what you really believe?

or do you get to pick and choose who has valid observations?

Knicks showed many playoff caliber traits during the regular season. They held the least amount of TOs, most of there quality shooting nights were off of extra passes and great ball movement. The were in the top half of the NBA in causing turn overs, defensive rebounds.

Playoff basketball is mostly about star players and matchups then anything else.

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Go out side NYC and tell people your a knick fan. They think its funny.

Knicks improved a bit, but so has about 2/3rds the team. Some players that they are developing are ready to step up. Some draft picks/sigings will suprise some. Some teams have one year of chemestry under their belt. Its naive to think just because we improved (subjective) that others have not.

Boston has not, but Nets clearly have. One can hope their chemistry fails, but its naive to dismiss the possibility they could win 62 games as well. Toronto and PHilly are not contending so it should be a two team race in the Atlantic.

Bonn to me is a fan who will intelectualize his points perhaps based on factorals more than on emotion that many UKers exibit.

Is one more accurate than the other? Is one more "FANTASTIC" than another?

Jeeze, we really going to argue degrees of "fans" and the legitimacey of "Troll vs. Hater vs. Somerite vs. Melodite lover"??

Its all good.

Here is the thing about basketball that makes it different then baseball so a lot of the saber metric stuff doesn't apply. You can't come up with a statistic for Kurt Thomas playing on a fractured foot in the last game of his career to start a 13 game win streak and pull his team out of a horrible rut. You can't come up for a stat when Kenyon Martin reminds the refs what a foul on Garnett really looks like but it does impact the game. There isn't a lot of room for proactive aggression in baseball. Maybe on the base paths. In basketball it is used all the time and it impacts games. So does emotion and momentum. You can't come up with a stat for a monster dunk, its just two points but it can cause a huge swing in momentum. Also, having guys like Ron and Kenyon makes a big difference. Both those guys will go there and at least one of them seems to be on the edge of going off most of the time. No stat for that but there are stats for how much better the team plays when that guy is on the floor for some reason.

We'll see if your theory is right. If it is, we should expect Morey's Rockets to be a bad team. And we should expect teams to stop hiring and start firing metrics experts.

yeah we have really reached something of a watershed moment for the nba in terms of using advanced statistics. if you are not knowledgeable as to the nature of staistics or possess good mathematical intuition it is hard to stomach all these stats.

still, as bob dylan said-- don't criticize what you can't understand.

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

I guess I have to ask, where was Melo's help? Kidd didn't score in the playoffs. Flu was dominated when he played d and his offense was nonexistent. JR couldn't do anything positive. KMart was ok but isn't much of an offensive threat and needed a body as big as his heart on d. Shump, Prigs, and Felton had some moments where they were ok but it was inconsistent. Cope was much more of a presence in Indy but didn't get much time(maybe because he didn't score a point in the celts series?). Also, tear Durant's labrum and have him play against D West and see how effective he is. I believe aside from Westbrook the Thunder were healthy. I don't think Martin or Ibaka had good series but they weren't hurt, coming back from injury or facing surgery after the series.

Has Melo EVER put up 30 points 9 boards and 6 assists in a playoff run or even a series?

But yes, i can say he had help, but when you're usage is hovering around 40 it would hard to see.

i actually dont think melo's off shooting arm injury affected his shot at all, he posted his usual %'s as a Knick.

Need more details. Just saying Melo had help isn't good enough.

Disagree, when you have guys on the court shooting more efficient than he is...he has help, just gotta use them.

I still can't tell if you are talking about last season or for his career? If that explanation is what you quantify as help to make a deep playoff run then I disagree. Help IMO means making plays without depending on Melo.

That will not be allowed.....the team is adding talent every single season and his playoff usage goes up and up.

Melo's usage has went from 32 to 36 to 38....ridiculous.

Yet his PER has decline in each of those three seasons from 22.5 to 21.5 to 20.4....so the point is simple....more Melo equals worse melo.

And thats not including his def% assist% and other facets of his game dropping as well.

He even used to be a solid rebounder and even that has taken a massive hit % w-wise.

Dont believe me...lets the facts show....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Look no further than the "playoffs advanced" section and notice all of the dropoffs.

And as far as his "help" his help isnt much different than the other playoff teams except the are not trusted or used as they should be....just look around at each teams PER for instance, and start right there.

I'm guessing you watched the Pacers series, please name me who was making plays to help Carmelo Anthony or the Knicks get past the Pacers? Your saying the Knicks added talent every yr, okay what talent stepped up and made plays vs the Pacers? The stats you are showing me doesn't explain how Tyson went from 10.7rebs a game to 6. Is Carmelo's usage rate and per the cause of that?

Hibbert doesn't have to leave the paint so our ability to run the PNR or get penetration to cause any type of ball movement is crippled making Felton and Tyson less effective offensively. A lot of you guys act like they just decided not to move the ball around. Almost all penetration is rendered non effective since Hibbert just patrolled the paint and we weren't getting any contact calls. Melo playing in the post isn't strong enough to post up West and has Hibbert to back him up. Melo playing on the perimeter allows George one of the best perimeter defenders in the game who is hard to shoot over with his height and length an easier assignment since he knows he has Hibbert clogging the paint he can focus on pressing Melo. When Melo did penetrate it resulted in contact non calls. The only real counter we had was to be able to nail 3s. Problem though is being able to create the open looks since we couldn't post up or penetrate or run our PNRs.

Your stats are only telling me the end result without explaining the y it happened which can only be known by watching the game. Just saying Carmelo should have got more ast or shot better isn't saying much. What the Knicks needed was a matchup to exploit to cause some type of ripple effect as Indy is built well to guard against Carmelo's strengths.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

First and foremost Durant is a better player then Melo. This isn't a comparison on who is a better player. But it is a comparison on situations and circumstances. 2nd you have to elaborate more on the "Melo had help, much more then Durant did comment". Do you mean overall in his career or this past playoffs? 3rd you forget that Melo was playing with a screwed up shoulder throughout the playoffs. Durant also played 44mins a game in the playoffs 4min per game more then Melo. Of course I doubt he would put up 30-9-6, but as I have mentioned he has put up 30-8.5-3-2 in the past & 27-6-4-2 in the past.

Regardless, we were told that Melo failed in the playoffs because he wasn't a superstar but a co-star and wasn't a saber metric basketball player. That not having enough help was an excuse. But then there is Durant who is a superstar, who is one of the best saber metric basketball players on the planet, who averaged 30pts 9rebs 6ast. All that led to was 3-6 once Westbrook went down and getting dominated in the 2nd rd. I think its clear to see what the x factor is between the 2 different parallels.

durant is more efficient and has been improving on making his teammates better. but losing westbrook was too much, especially against a huge team like memphis.

durant was drafted but melo decimated the team he wanted to be traded to instead of waiting for free agency. if melo knew his actual value to a team instead of chasing top money and having a delusional value of himself he could have been surrounded by a much more solid and deep team.

great point.. but as we know, the dude is a legend in his own mind.. nothing else matters,,

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Also I would like to know how the Denver Nuggets with the major cap space we gave them, multiple young veterans we gave them who excel in saber metrics, along with the draft picks we gave them. 3 yrs later still have not have gotten out of the first rd of the playoffs and don't look like they made any improvements to surpass that going into yr 4. I thought that was the blueprint to championships?

nah, there is no blueprint to a championship, just one that should and most likely does lead to continued success which in turn hopefully leads you to a ring. One that gives you a better chance to do so over a longer period.. so far denver has set a new record for wins as a team since they got rid of Mr. wannabe star.. they still have picks, they are still young and they still have a window that is wide open to win now,and in the future, a true foundation in which to build on..

on the flipside, we are flipping has beens like artest, kenyon, journeyman like beno, and bums like bargnani.... and oh, guess what, fans are trying to spin this new 2015 plan... while MR. Wannabee is keeping the team in limbo about his plans of opting out.. LOL..

yea, I will take whats behind the denver curtain... if you really want to know whats going on with denver.. try watching...

How you can maintain the "everything the Knicks do sucks and everything Denver does is fantastic" after this offseason I don't know. Nuggets have had a disaster of an offseason- they are locked into mediocrity, they are not awash with draft picks, and their 'young players' ain't so young anymore. And they're capped out longer than we are. They've added defensive abominations Nate, Hickson and Foye- who you would be laughing about if we'd signed!

We have a better chance this season than the Nuggets AND we get maximum cap space before them- we have a better present and future.

Come on man- you can dislike Melo, but for the past 3 years you've lost any semblance of objectivity and you NEVER seriously consider anyone elses view- you're obsessed with Melo and wont rest until he's vanquish from the team- you're like that Captain Ahab in Moby Dick! The thing is, when you're not grinding your axe, you do have great basketball insight- used to love your posts before the trade!

I am not maintaining anything regarding the knicks vs denver in that fashion, I didn't even bring denver up, and I am not sure why that poster needed to bring denver up as well. I do maintain tho, that building a team should be done with a well thought out plan, with patience and players that play a certain way and conduct themselves a certain way. I don't see that with the knicks.. not to my standards.. now does my way guarantee a championship as some poster tried to sarcastically remark... well no, but I do think doing things a certain way, yields championship results.. we have seen it with teams like the spurs, pistons, etc.. What the knicks are doing now, I have never seen work.. and no, we can't point to boston or the heat, because they had star players, true star players.. something we never had, and no amare and carmelo are not superstar players!

I always felt that this process is simple. Get good two way players, don't overpay and drain your asset pool to get guys who are not true stars but pay star prices, maintain flexibility, stick to the plan. when the opportunity arises, then you can strike.. look at Houston as an example.. will this guarantee them anything? No, but it gives them a chance to not only be good, but it gives them a legit shot, and the opportunity to really shift gears and reset if things dont work out..

when I hear knick fans scoff at denver and Houston because they haven't won a ring yet, which is ridiculous considering the time and what they are doing, building towards a ring.. it reminds me of the guy who finds out that someone got hurt or died in an accident while wearing a seatbelt and saying.. SEE, they had a seatbelt on and it didn't help.. or they hear that the seatbelt may have caused the death and they go.. SEE, had they not been wearing a seat belt..

I mean really, those things might happen, but honestly we all know that seat belts have saved millions of lives more than it has cost.... so yes, my idea may not guarantee you anything, but what I do know is that teams that have conducted themselves this way, have done well, have won rings. moreso than not...

Come on man- you can dislike Melo, but for the past 3 years you've lost any semblance of objectivity and you NEVER seriously consider anyone elses view- you're obsessed with Melo and wont rest until he's vanquish from the team-

not true, I am not making up anything when it comes to carmelo. I am posting facts, and I also imput how I feel about him, but I am not making things up... I do want him gone tho.. badly..

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

I guess I have to ask, where was Melo's help? Kidd didn't score in the playoffs. Flu was dominated when he played d and his offense was nonexistent. JR couldn't do anything positive. KMart was ok but isn't much of an offensive threat and needed a body as big as his heart on d. Shump, Prigs, and Felton had some moments where they were ok but it was inconsistent. Cope was much more of a presence in Indy but didn't get much time(maybe because he didn't score a point in the celts series?). Also, tear Durant's labrum and have him play against D West and see how effective he is. I believe aside from Westbrook the Thunder were healthy. I don't think Martin or Ibaka had good series but they weren't hurt, coming back from injury or facing surgery after the series.

Has Melo EVER put up 30 points 9 boards and 6 assists in a playoff run or even a series?

But yes, i can say he had help, but when you're usage is hovering around 40 it would hard to see.

i actually dont think melo's off shooting arm injury affected his shot at all, he posted his usual %'s as a Knick.

Need more details. Just saying Melo had help isn't good enough.

Disagree, when you have guys on the court shooting more efficient than he is...he has help, just gotta use them.

I still can't tell if you are talking about last season or for his career? If that explanation is what you quantify as help to make a deep playoff run then I disagree. Help IMO means making plays without depending on Melo.

That will not be allowed.....the team is adding talent every single season and his playoff usage goes up and up.

Melo's usage has went from 32 to 36 to 38....ridiculous.

Yet his PER has decline in each of those three seasons from 22.5 to 21.5 to 20.4....so the point is simple....more Melo equals worse melo.

And thats not including his def% assist% and other facets of his game dropping as well.

He even used to be a solid rebounder and even that has taken a massive hit % w-wise.

Dont believe me...lets the facts show....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Look no further than the "playoffs advanced" section and notice all of the dropoffs.

And as far as his "help" his help isnt much different than the other playoff teams except the are not trusted or used as they should be....just look around at each teams PER for instance, and start right there.

I'm guessing you watched the Pacers series, please name me who was making plays to help Carmelo Anthony or the Knicks get past the Pacers? Your saying the Knicks added talent every yr, okay what talent stepped up and made plays vs the Pacers? The stats you are showing me doesn't explain how Tyson went from 10.7rebs a game to 6. Is Carmelo's usage rate and per the cause of that?

Hibbert doesn't have to leave the paint so our ability to run the PNR or get penetration to cause any type of ball movement is crippled making Felton and Tyson less effective offensively. A lot of you guys act like they just decided not to move the ball around. Almost all penetration is rendered non effective since Hibbert just patrolled the paint and we weren't getting any contact calls. Melo playing in the post isn't strong enough to post up West and has Hibbert to back him up. Melo playing on the perimeter allows George one of the best perimeter defenders in the game who is hard to shoot over with his height and length an easier assignment since he knows he has Hibbert clogging the paint he can focus on pressing Melo. When Melo did penetrate it resulted in contact non calls. The only real counter we had was to be able to nail 3s. Problem though is being able to create the open looks since we couldn't post up or penetrate or run our PNRs.

Your stats are only telling me the end result without explaining the y it happened which can only be known by watching the game. Just saying Carmelo should have got more ast or shot better isn't saying much. What the Knicks needed was a matchup to exploit to cause some type of ripple effect as Indy is built well to guard against Carmelo's strengths.

And as for the matchup to exploit are you stating the best player on the court cant be? Carmelo was supposed to be the matchup problem.

The main issue is, if the best player is playing their best, then you can look at the role players.

See Durant, he played well above his norm, you cant fault him at all....Melo played worse and was utilized even more as he played worse.

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

First and foremost Durant is a better player then Melo. This isn't a comparison on who is a better player. But it is a comparison on situations and circumstances. 2nd you have to elaborate more on the "Melo had help, much more then Durant did comment". Do you mean overall in his career or this past playoffs? 3rd you forget that Melo was playing with a screwed up shoulder throughout the playoffs. Durant also played 44mins a game in the playoffs 4min per game more then Melo. Of course I doubt he would put up 30-9-6, but as I have mentioned he has put up 30-8.5-3-2 in the past & 27-6-4-2 in the past.

Regardless, we were told that Melo failed in the playoffs because he wasn't a superstar but a co-star and wasn't a saber metric basketball player. That not having enough help was an excuse. But then there is Durant who is a superstar, who is one of the best saber metric basketball players on the planet, who averaged 30pts 9rebs 6ast. All that led to was 3-6 once Westbrook went down and getting dominated in the 2nd rd. I think its clear to see what the x factor is between the 2 different parallels.

durant is more efficient and has been improving on making his teammates better. but losing westbrook was too much, especially against a huge team like memphis.

durant was drafted but melo decimated the team he wanted to be traded to instead of waiting for free agency. if melo knew his actual value to a team instead of chasing top money and having a delusional value of himself he could have been surrounded by a much more solid and deep team.

I honestly cant blame melo for that, he didnt trade himself, and the team has bounced back from those asset losses imo, and continue to move forward every season since.

now if we're gauging it on titles and that only, they have a long way to go, but i doubt those assets would contribute to that end either.

I just find it odd that people look at durant which they know is a vastly better player and then use the same analogy.

The thunder didnt lose because Durant was inefffective.....he produced and did so very well..,..cant say the same for melo.

and i cant use injuries as an excuse, it seems injuries only matter when he struggles....no one said anything when he had his great month of april while being hurt.

- Exactly. Knicks could have felt the price was to steep and kept it moving.

- Durant in the last 2 games vs the Grizzlies shot 10-27 and 5-21 with 7turnovers in the finally.

dk7th wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

I guess I have to ask, where was Melo's help? Kidd didn't score in the playoffs. Flu was dominated when he played d and his offense was nonexistent. JR couldn't do anything positive. KMart was ok but isn't much of an offensive threat and needed a body as big as his heart on d. Shump, Prigs, and Felton had some moments where they were ok but it was inconsistent. Cope was much more of a presence in Indy but didn't get much time(maybe because he didn't score a point in the celts series?). Also, tear Durant's labrum and have him play against D West and see how effective he is. I believe aside from Westbrook the Thunder were healthy. I don't think Martin or Ibaka had good series but they weren't hurt, coming back from injury or facing surgery after the series.

Has Melo EVER put up 30 points 9 boards and 6 assists in a playoff run or even a series?

But yes, i can say he had help, but when you're usage is hovering around 40 it would hard to see.

i actually dont think melo's off shooting arm injury affected his shot at all, he posted his usual %'s as a Knick.

Need more details. Just saying Melo had help isn't good enough.

Disagree, when you have guys on the court shooting more efficient than he is...he has help, just gotta use them.

I still can't tell if you are talking about last season or for his career? If that explanation is what you quantify as help to make a deep playoff run then I disagree. Help IMO means making plays without depending on Melo.

That will not be allowed.....the team is adding talent every single season and his playoff usage goes up and up.

Melo's usage has went from 32 to 36 to 38....ridiculous.

Yet his PER has decline in each of those three seasons from 22.5 to 21.5 to 20.4....so the point is simple....more Melo equals worse melo.

And thats not including his def% assist% and other facets of his game dropping as well.

He even used to be a solid rebounder and even that has taken a massive hit % w-wise.

Dont believe me...lets the facts show....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Look no further than the "playoffs advanced" section and notice all of the dropoffs.

And as far as his "help" his help isnt much different than the other playoff teams except the are not trusted or used as they should be....just look around at each teams PER for instance, and start right there.

I'm guessing you watched the Pacers series, please name me who was making plays to help Carmelo Anthony or the Knicks get past the Pacers? Your saying the Knicks added talent every yr, okay what talent stepped up and made plays vs the Pacers? The stats you are showing me doesn't explain how Tyson went from 10.7rebs a game to 6. Is Carmelo's usage rate and per the cause of that?

Hibbert doesn't have to leave the paint so our ability to run the PNR or get penetration to cause any type of ball movement is crippled making Felton and Tyson less effective offensively. A lot of you guys act like they just decided not to move the ball around. Almost all penetration is rendered non effective since Hibbert just patrolled the paint and we weren't getting any contact calls. Melo playing in the post isn't strong enough to post up West and has Hibbert to back him up. Melo playing on the perimeter allows George one of the best perimeter defenders in the game who is hard to shoot over with his height and length an easier assignment since he knows he has Hibbert clogging the paint he can focus on pressing Melo. When Melo did penetrate it resulted in contact non calls. The only real counter we had was to be able to nail 3s. Problem though is being able to create the open looks since we couldn't post up or penetrate or run our PNRs.

Your stats are only telling me the end result without explaining the y it happened which can only be known by watching the game. Just saying Carmelo should have got more ast or shot better isn't saying much. What the Knicks needed was a matchup to exploit to cause some type of ripple effect as Indy is built well to guard against Carmelo's strengths.

When you have a usage of near 40, you should be the playmaker, but melo was not, and was ineffecient in what he does best.

And as for the matchup to exploit are you stating the best player on the court cant be? Carmelo was supposed to be the matchup problem.

The main issue is, if the best player is playing their best, then you can look at the role players.

See Durant, he played well above his norm, you cant fault him at all....Melo played worse and was utilized even more as he played worse.

by george i think you've got it!

THAT is called hitting the nail on the head..

If he is a steal i want someone from the Knicks thrown in jail.

"Steals" dont cost your team 3 draft picks.

then I guess he might be a steal, the team certainly got pick pocketed.