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Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?
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Masterplan
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8/3/2007  12:01 PM
Posted by misterearl:

One More For The Reading Impaired

(basketball jones this is more than 5 lines so please scroll down)

arkrud - for the second time... here are my eight

now pay attention

Collins - at 6'6 a steady defensive presense in the backcourt

Chandler - by January people will be screaming, "I told you so" after he blocks a shot, takes it the length of the floor and dunks with ease

Nichols - improved from outside every year at Syracuse, at 6'8 has above superior lateral quickness to be an excellent defender

Lee - the people's choice

Curry - I don't care how many ways you insist on insulting him, at 24 years old he is still finding his voice ... and I sincerely hope that he and his family will recover emotionally from the trauma of having their home invaded

Morris - can play two positions up front, played for Tubby and has nice footwork

Balkman - "...rasta no pickpocket", then again.. sometimes he is

Zach Randolph - 23 and 10 is no mirage

actually, i stand corrected. my bad.

i just don't see it, not with Q and jeffries on the roster. not sure about randolph on there either.

EDIT: no marbury and crawford in the rotation? is this who you want or what you predict?

[Edited by - Masterplan on 08-03-2007 12:03 PM]
AUTOADVERT
misterearl
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8/3/2007  12:12 PM
Allanfan - if I get out my crystal basketball it goes something (rubbing the Spalding gently) like this:

Quentin Richadson has a nice training camp but tweaks his back in a pre-season game. As much as he attempts to work through it, the stress of the early season matchups on the west coast swing in November takes a toll as he cross-steps awkwardly in Phoenix guarding Boris Diaw.

Jared Jeffries continues to do the annoying things on defense but teams are leaving him free on the perimeter to gang up on the surprisingly productive tandem of Eddy, Randolph and David Lee.

Chandler gets some burn against Golden State on November 20 and the Garden crowd responds to his ability to block shots from out of nowhere. He has a breakout game in December 12 against the Sonics and Jeffries is put out as trade bait for a February deal.

That's my story an' I'm stickin' to it
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misterearl
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8/3/2007  12:15 PM
Masterplan - the rotations I post are for entertainment purposes only

If we have learned anything about watching our beloved Knicks through the years it is one stone-cold, undeniable fact that cancels out each and every prediction, forecast, opinion, ranking, won-loss guess or predicted order of finish...

expect the unexpected
once a knick always a knick
loweyecue
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8/3/2007  9:47 PM
Posted by misterearl:

lowey - the only point I'm trying to get you to consider is that New York, no matter who the general manager is, always has and always will consider the long term salary cap as secondary to available spare talent.

Yogi Berra: "you could look it up"

Keyword being talent. That is what his current general manager has missed out on hasn't he? Don't bring up the damn draft agin, he can be the talent scout on the Knicks all he likes. Its not about salary cap, its about the sheer stupidity of trading for tradings sake. You need to have a plan before you can build a team.

BTW Don't call me lowey
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
misterearl
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8/6/2007  10:33 AM
loweyecue - the current general manager has added a 6'9 potential All-Star through a trade. I would not define 23 and 10 Zach Randolph "trading for trading sake"... or the extra draft pick that brough David Lee for that matter.

Instead of bitching and moaning about the past, why not adjust your focus, catch up and get into the present?

Who knows how this new edition will perform? But I would submit that watching the growth curve of this young team will be a lot more interesting that whining over what Isiah Thomas has not done for youlately. No time for crybabies. If you feel the Knicks roster is constructed with a "stupid" blueprint, then why not change the channel?

Me? When Demetris Nichols busts his first three-pointer I will get loud. When David Lee dunks in traffic your ears will hurt from my screams. When Mardy Collins makes the subtle pass to the open man or Eddy Curry rocks someone in the paint for another 20 point performance... I may just lose my voice.

I hate to counter your passionate cries to abandon ship and run for cover beacuse "the sky is falling!",but I plan on watching and cheering. LOUD.

Enjoy The Ride



[Edited by - misterearl on 08-06-2007 10:33 AM]
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misterearl
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8/6/2007  10:34 AM
Hold up, I almost forgot

Wilson Chandler can play
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loweyecue
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8/6/2007  5:17 PM
Posted by misterearl:

loweyecue - the current general manager has added a 6'9 potential All-Star through a trade. I would not define 23 and 10 Zach Randolph "trading for trading sake"... or the extra draft pick that brough David Lee for that matter.

Instead of bitching and moaning about the past, why not adjust your focus, catch up and get into the present?

Who knows how this new edition will perform? But I would submit that watching the growth curve of this young team will be a lot more interesting that whining over what Isiah Thomas has not done for youlately. No time for crybabies. If you feel the Knicks roster is constructed with a "stupid" blueprint, then why not change the channel?

Me? When Demetris Nichols busts his first three-pointer I will get loud. When David Lee dunks in traffic your ears will hurt from my screams. When Mardy Collins makes the subtle pass to the open man or Eddy Curry rocks someone in the paint for another 20 point performance... I may just lose my voice.

I hate to counter your passionate cries to abandon ship and run for cover beacuse "the sky is falling!",but I plan on watching and cheering. LOUD.

Enjoy The Ride



[Edited by - misterearl on 08-06-2007 10:33 AM]


The current genral manager has traded for someone known for two things only Scoring and Rebounding, just those same two things he team didn't exactly miss last season. If you give up two extra years of opportunity to get below the cap for a stat padding ball hog who will not fill any need on the team then yes I will call it trading for tradings sake.

I didn't ask you to read my posts or ask you to stop watching the games so not sure what you are whining about. I want this team to win as badly as anybody else and I have as much right to express my opinion on this forum as you do. So if you can't handle it don't read it.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
misterearl
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8/6/2007  5:31 PM
loweyecue - i would beg to differ. The power forward spot was one of the weakest links as Eddy Curry was running with Malik Rose by March with the people's choice, sophomore David Lee, injured. In addition, scoring and rebounding from the four spot, with Frye struggling, was problematic.

A stat padding bag hog who went for 23 and 10 ain't such a bad idea one considers the alternative of waiting two years for your proposed pipe dream of a salary cap purchase in 2009

just win baby
once a knick always a knick
nixluva
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8/6/2007  5:59 PM
Zach gives us a guy that can extend our post dominance for 48 minutes. When Curry goes out, we still have a guy that can focus our offense. Don't underestimate that impact. The guy may not be a shotblocker or great help defender, but he's a plus player. You usually win the battle at his position or at least he gives you a guy that can match another impact PF. We didn't get that last year. So he's a big improvement.

Bippity10
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8/6/2007  6:47 PM
You keep trying to convince everyone that Zach has a lot of talent. You don't have to convince anyone here of that. Everyone on the board can see that he is a 23 pt 10 rebound player. It's not his talent that people are concerned about. If he brings it as a team player every night than he can solve a lot of our problems. The question that everyone has is, will he be a team player?
I just hope that people will like me
misterearl
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8/6/2007  8:37 PM
bippity - of COURSE Zach will be a "team player". There are few situations better than a player with a somewhat checkered past with something to prove.

It's Broadway and New Yorkers love good theatre.

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nixluva
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8/6/2007  9:06 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

You keep trying to convince everyone that Zach has a lot of talent. You don't have to convince anyone here of that. Everyone on the board can see that he is a 23 pt 10 rebound player. It's not his talent that people are concerned about. If he brings it as a team player every night than he can solve a lot of our problems. The question that everyone has is, will he be a team player?

See this is where you and I get into problems. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, that's your interpretation of what i'm saying. I pointed out the impact he can have for this team as a 2nd dominant post presence. He's a player that can help us to score more efficiently. He's not a PG, he's here to SCORE!!! Don't tell me about being a team player, I know all about being a team player, but your stars are expected to be the dominant players that they are. This is not to say you want him to just ignore the team concept and break off from the plays all the time. That's not what I believe he's going to do. But you don't want him to defer, he's a PRIMARY scorer and as such his impact will be felt most when he's doing that. I'd love it if he could be a Point Forward type player, but I doubt that he's evolved his passing game that much.

Now if he's doubled hard you'll expect him to pass the ball cuz that's good BB. However, unless the shot is wide open, our guards should still look to get the ball back in his hands since he's gonna be higher % offense with a chance to also draw a foul. Having him allows us to keep playing inside out for the whole game, whereas we lost that last year when Curry sat down. My feeling is that he avg'd 2.2 asts on a bad team, he may improve on that here. He's already showing that he's further along than Curry in terms of playing team ball. He's better than Frye, the guy he replaced in that regard as well.

misterearl
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8/6/2007  9:26 PM
bippity - I don't have an issue whether Zach will be a team player or not. It really doesn't matter.

If he scores at a rate similar, or above, to his 23 point average in Portland people will label him as selfish

If he looks to pass more than expected and his scoring average drops six points per to 17, then people will label him as deferring too much and not being aggressive enough.

Whatever his night-to-night production is doesn't matter so long as the Knicks learn to play as a team by February. Can they pick each other up and share the offensive and defensive responsibilities when individual players go thorugh the inevitable peaks and valleys of a marathon season?

Can they bond and grow together?

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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  9:34 AM
Posted by misterearl:

bippity - I don't have an issue whether Zach will be a team player or not. It really doesn't matter.

If he scores at a rate similar, or above, to his 23 point average in Portland people will label him as selfish

If he looks to pass more than expected and his scoring average drops six points per to 17, then people will label him as deferring too much and not being aggressive enough.

Whatever his night-to-night production is doesn't matter so long as the Knicks learn to play as a team by February. Can they pick each other up and share the offensive and defensive responsibilities when individual players go thorugh the inevitable peaks and valleys of a marathon season?

Can they bond and grow together?

Misterearl you have to learn to weed out the people that are serious about talking basketball from those that just flow with the tides. NO matter what team you root for that is the way some fans react. But this is you and I having this conversation about OUR opinions, and not random fans that won't like Zach no matter what he does. Learn to distinguish between the masses and individual posters, it lessens the amount of confusion.

I'm on board with Zach. As Nixluva has astutely pointed out, he is a talented post player that will allow our low post game to be among the best, if not the best, in the NBA. That being said, everyone on this site knows that defense is how you win long-term. If our big guys don't equally commit to the offensive and defensive ends then all this talk about dominating post games won't mean much. We must up our standards as fans, and our players must as well. We can't be tolerant of key players on the roster being one way players.

The greatest team of our era is Jordan's Bulls. They had Jordan and Pippen. They were the two best offensive players on their team and amongst the best in the league. The reason why the team dominated is because they were also amongst the best defensive players in the league. They despised having a player score on them. They wanted to be the league's best defenders. IF you don't want that as an example you can look to our own recent past. Ewing, Starks, Oak were not only our leaders but they were the best defensive players and effort givers on our team. This inspired the team to do the same. Scrubs were trying to keep up because if they didn't, they knew that Ewing and Oak would be in their face. We need to hold Curry and Zach to this standard. This is in no way a criticism and should not be looked at as one. But if these guys continue their career trends and do not focus on the other end of the ball, you and I both know as educated fans, this team will be better, BUT IT AIN'T GOING ANYWHERE!

[Edited by - bippity10 on 07-08-2007 09:39 AM]
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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  9:35 AM
you'll notice on this board, all anyone talks about is offense.
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misterearl
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8/7/2007  10:01 AM
Dee-fense

bipp - first, let me say I appreciate your passion for hoops and your willingness to engage in an ongoing discussion of the intricate details of the game. Defense IS where it starts.

When talking about the Oakley/Ewing era, images of Anthony Mason - arms extended and feet shuffling in a quick duck walk across the floor - come instantly to mind.

As the first line of defense in football is the defensive line, the first line of defense in basketball is the backcourt. It starts as soon as the ball is inbounded. Now, here's, the fun part. if you consider the Knicks have a defense-oriented 6'6 guard in Mardy Collins and another 6'8 defense-first (potential) guard in 6'8 Demetris (not Demetrius) Nichols, the future has possibility.

Or as Jimmy Castor would say, "Po-tential".

Marbury tries, but the health of his knees are a serious concern over the course of six grueling months of games. Jamal can't be left in the backcourt without a running buddy, preferably taller and more physical, who can cover his mistakes. I'm not certain of what type of defender Fred Jones is, but at 205 lbs, his ticket to a Knicks uni will be his defensive effort.

Quentin Richardson in the backcourt can only work if he is lighter and his back is as solid as he claims. I have my doubts on both.

That leaves Nate to become a pest by embracing defense as a point guard. Hops and his ant-like strength aside, I worry about matching up, leading with a 5'7 munchkin. If he can be persuaded by Isiah to switch from impersonating a slam-dunker to mimick Seattle's very own "glove", then we could have something.

With all that said. My February backcourt rotations are based on how it all shakes out:

Collins and Crawford

Nate and Nichols









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Bippity10
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8/7/2007  10:22 AM
That rotation isn't horrible. My problem is with so many young guys running the backcourt it would be wise to have a veteran PG that can actually teach these guys how to run an offense. The mentor has been devalued by us. Sure having Lenny and Isiah and LB be able to teach the PG position is a blessing, but until the young guys see someone who is successful implementing their teachings it's difficult to learn. That also leaves us with a bind in the frontcourt. Now you have poor shooting from Collins an inconsistent shooter in Craw and a SF that can't shoot. Teams are going to be coming hard off of the 1 and the 3 for double teams. They aren't leaving any of the big guys and they aren't leaving Nate or Nichols.

A second issue is on the defensive end. With the two big guys not playing defense that means your normal backcourt to offset this weakness would be Collins and Nichols. In the future maybe that backcourt works, but today it doesn't. And the only way it gets better is if Isiah committs to it and let's them play instead of us hoping for injuries to happen.
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loweyecue
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8/7/2007  10:25 AM
Posted by misterearl:

loweyecue - i would beg to differ. The power forward spot was one of the weakest links as Eddy Curry was running with Malik Rose by March with the people's choice, sophomore David Lee, injured. In addition, scoring and rebounding from the four spot, with Frye struggling, was problematic.

A stat padding bag hog who went for 23 and 10 ain't such a bad idea one considers the alternative of waiting two years for your proposed pipe dream of a salary cap purchase in 2009

just win baby

Yes, Just Win and you will see a lot of people stop complaining.
But you seem to keep missing the point or working your way around it?

I am not saying Zach Randolph is terrible, he is selfish and does not in any way address our primary concern. OK so the two year wait is a Pipe Dream? Why then didn't Isiah go after a really lock down defensive PF? If you have to trade why not trade for a DPOY in Artest than this guy? Or do you still think we needed scoring more than we needed defense? I would have been completely on board with THAT trade had it happened before we got Randolph.

BTW you can call me low, just don't call me lowey(makes no sense at all)....the name is lowIQ
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
Bippity10
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8/7/2007  10:37 AM
You want to know what I was wondering. With the addition of Curry and Zach and us being a halfcourt team now, whatever happen to the plan of turning us into Phoenix East? Man, that only lasted about 5 months.
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misterearl
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8/7/2007  10:49 AM
loweyecue - a "lock-down" defender at power forward? Nice. Who did you have in mind?

Power forward was a weak link because of two things. First, neither Frye, Lee or Malik Rose could draw attention from Eddy Curry to prevent the double and triple teaming inside. Second, none of them had adequate lateral quickness to cover mistakes on defense. The only one with decent hops was Lee, but he needs work, as most young players do, on reaction and recognition.

Zeke's approach was to correct the perimeter defensive deficiences pointed out by my hero tomverve in the "Keys To The Season" thread. Hence, the drafting of Wilson Chandler who has a Marcus Camby-like anticipation for defense and blocked shots... and Demetris Nichols, who - despite his tasty jumper - is a defense-first forward.

I don't have a problem with building defense from the backcourt first. (see 6'6 Mardy Collins, the re-orientation of Nate and the addition of big-body Fred Jones)

Here is one of my problems with your pre-assessment of Zach as "selfish". Players adopt roles based on the dudes they play alongside. A player can be the lead scorer in one system and that same player can become a part of a synchronized unit on the next. ie. Pete Maravich as a Boston Celtic (even given his age) was not the same Pistol Pete of Atlanta.

Zach was "selfish" (ie a leader on the court) in Portland because that's what he had to be. Heck, while we're passing out the selfish label let's stick it on Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry.

How can you predict how Zach will mesh with his new teammates before the ball racks have been rolled out for the first freakin' practice?

And yes, I'm talkin' 'bout practice



[Edited by - misterearl on 08-07-2007 10:59 AM]
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Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?

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