Getting there, and how well the team plays, should decide Thibs fate.

Thibs is a veteran coach, isnt his first rodeo, so I dont want to see the Knicks get eliminated without a fight.

Kemet wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Over the last 12 days, Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks have blown a 23-point home lead to the Hawks, gave up a franchise record 27 threes to the Celtics (also at home), were decimated by 27 by a Nets team that had been mired in turmoil just days earlier, and now gave up their most points in regulation in nearly 43 years.

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. Four times? That’s a hot seat.

Sam started this thread and dipped out. 19 pages later, do you still want Thibs fired Sam?

For me, it’s the blown leads that I didn’t like and thought Thibs rigidity was part of the problem. But we have been playing better since those blown leads and thibs has shown the willingness to adjust so can’t complain about that now.

Also I always complained (in the past) the organization including Thibs treats Randle different than the other players. Well, even if that was true, Randle is our star or top dog. And every top dog is treated different than other players. That’s just life. So I stopped complaining about that and meanwhile Randle has been killing and playing better lately.

I personally don’t think there’s a better coach ready to do anything better than Thibs right now. And the team as a whole is finally doing something Knicks fans are not used to seeing. chemistry building from the players to coaches to the FO. We are starting to see some sort of synergy and positive results as the outcomes.

Ill admit the fire Thibs chants was premature. Thibs is still puzzling to me like keeping Randle in the game that long with a 20 pt lead in the last game. He gave some dude off the bench 21 secs of garbage time (is that normal). I don’t know. Maybe I’m picky or still have this “thibs runs his players into the ground” thoughts from his past rumors. Eventhough overall he’s playing his players the same as every coach, per the stats.

But overall I’m seeing good progress all around. 👏
We still need to make small trades but only to build on top of what we have.

Whomever making these silly moves for the Knicks the past two season has been 1 good and 2 bad for the Knicks organization. Plus the senior citizen coach Tom Thibs method hasn't change he have the Knicks roster of players unhappy with his old method of playing an 8- or 9-Man rotation 20 games before the midseason games.
The old man Thibs needs the experience assistant coach Mike Woodson back on the bench.

The Knicks have Three dynamic PG in D.Rose, Brunson, and McBride on the roster, plus two dynamic 2-Way SG in Quickley & Grimes. In Jalen Brunson last 5 Knicks games he averages 38 minutes in each game. Why?
In Brunson 4 seasons on the Dallas Mavs Brunson can count the times he played above 32 minutes on one hand.
The DNP Cam Reddish happen to be the Knicks best 2-Way SF on the roster, plus are in his final rookie contract season.
PF-Hartenstein is a PF, not an NBA center in the new small-ball NBA.
The 2nd season center Sims should be paired up in the frontcourt alongside Hartenstein or Obi Toppin each game for 16 to 20 minutes a game throughout the first half of the season to get on the same page.

There's no reason at all for Randle to receive 30 minutes of playing time at the end of the 3rd quarter (Randle's 40 minute decision making was the main reason the Knicks loss games they had 20 point leads in.)!
The best thing I could say bout Randle are .. Randle's an all-star player in the first quarter of a game and have been a BUST in the 4th quarter of games.
Without Brunson talent in the 4th quarter the Knicks can't buy a win.
Without D.Rose talent in the 4th quarter the Knicks couldn't buy a win in 2021.

Just out of curiosity has anyone ever wondered if these guys like IQ, McBride, Grimes.....maybe these guys are putting up these numbers and looking the way they are, in part because of HOW Thibs in employing them? Maybe IQ's looks like a chucker with sometimes questionable decision making with more minutes? McBride maybe looks like a 3rd string defensive PG with no offense with more minutes?

All I am saying is, how they are being deployed is playing a part in how they look.

I mean, all everyone said when Thibs got here was he can't develop talent, yet here we are complaining that ALL these guys he developed are these awesome players that he is short changing.
So far he has developed (to the point where they are seen as real players)

IQ (can you really tell me his crazy improvement on defense didn't have any contributions from Thibs?)
Grimes
Randle to a degree (he wasn't this good under Fiz or the Westchester coach that replaced him)
Robinson
McBride
Sims
Barrett has made strides under him (that might be natural growth)

No matter what you say, fact is, all of these players have progressed under Thibs.

The only ones you can say he hasn't developed, to a point, are Obi and Cam, who are now some mythical figures that Thibs is holding back from being transcendent players. Yet Obi has developed from a strict rim runner who can't shoot to one of the better corner 3 point shooters in the league and Cam, in his time that he was playing looked better than at any time in Atlanta.

Everyone said he screwed over Kemba. Other than one game, how is that working for Dallas?
Bullock looked much better in Thibs system than in Dallas'.
Taj doesn't look like the same player in Washington.
Noel is not the same player in Detroit.
Everyone cried that Burks was getting too much time as a PG in NY, and he is playing so well in Detroit, at least one Detroit outlet is saying he should start, possibly at PG.

https://www.mlive.com/pistons/2023/01/alec-burks-should-start-and-other-pistons-takeaways-from-loss-to-blazers.html

Time to give Burks starter minutes
Speaking of tinkering with the starting lineup, Casey should consider naming Alec Burks as a starter if changes are looming. Obviously inserting Burks into the starting unit would mean that Killian Hayes or lottery pick Jaden Ivey would head to the bench, but maybe that’s for the best.

On Monday, Burks finished with 19 points and three assists in just over 24 minutes. One thing that’s been very impressive about Burks in recent weeks is his ability to draw fouls and cash in on opportunities at the free-throw line. Last night, Burks went 8-for-9 at the charity stripe.

The goal for the Pistons right now is to develop their young talent and swapping Ivey or Hayes out of the starting unit for a 12-year veteran contradicts that. However, over the last five games, Burks has been a 50-60-85 guy. He’s averaging 19.4 points while shooting 53% from the field, 62% from behind the arc, and 85% from the free throw line.

Developing young talent is important, but so is winning games. Hayes or Ivey would most certainly receive help from playing alongside a savvy veteran to start the games, as they on-court guidance could help.

Just google Alec Burks Detroit and see some of the articles written about him.

joec32033 wrote:

Kemet wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Over the last 12 days, Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks have blown a 23-point home lead to the Hawks, gave up a franchise record 27 threes to the Celtics (also at home), were decimated by 27 by a Nets team that had been mired in turmoil just days earlier, and now gave up their most points in regulation in nearly 43 years.

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. Four times? That’s a hot seat.

Sam started this thread and dipped out. 19 pages later, do you still want Thibs fired Sam?

For me, it’s the blown leads that I didn’t like and thought Thibs rigidity was part of the problem. But we have been playing better since those blown leads and thibs has shown the willingness to adjust so can’t complain about that now.

Also I always complained (in the past) the organization including Thibs treats Randle different than the other players. Well, even if that was true, Randle is our star or top dog. And every top dog is treated different than other players. That’s just life. So I stopped complaining about that and meanwhile Randle has been killing and playing better lately.

I personally don’t think there’s a better coach ready to do anything better than Thibs right now. And the team as a whole is finally doing something Knicks fans are not used to seeing. chemistry building from the players to coaches to the FO. We are starting to see some sort of synergy and positive results as the outcomes.

Ill admit the fire Thibs chants was premature. Thibs is still puzzling to me like keeping Randle in the game that long with a 20 pt lead in the last game. He gave some dude off the bench 21 secs of garbage time (is that normal). I don’t know. Maybe I’m picky or still have this “thibs runs his players into the ground” thoughts from his past rumors. Eventhough overall he’s playing his players the same as every coach, per the stats.

But overall I’m seeing good progress all around. 👏
We still need to make small trades but only to build on top of what we have.

Whomever making these silly moves for the Knicks the past two season has been 1 good and 2 bad for the Knicks organization. Plus the senior citizen coach Tom Thibs method hasn't change he have the Knicks roster of players unhappy with his old method of playing an 8- or 9-Man rotation 20 games before the midseason games.
The old man Thibs needs the experience assistant coach Mike Woodson back on the bench.

The Knicks have Three dynamic PG in D.Rose, Brunson, and McBride on the roster, plus two dynamic 2-Way SG in Quickley & Grimes. In Jalen Brunson last 5 Knicks games he averages 38 minutes in each game. Why?
In Brunson 4 seasons on the Dallas Mavs Brunson can count the times he played above 32 minutes on one hand.
The DNP Cam Reddish happen to be the Knicks best 2-Way SF on the roster, plus are in his final rookie contract season.
PF-Hartenstein is a PF, not an NBA center in the new small-ball NBA.
The 2nd season center Sims should be paired up in the frontcourt alongside Hartenstein or Obi Toppin each game for 16 to 20 minutes a game throughout the first half of the season to get on the same page.

There's no reason at all for Randle to receive 30 minutes of playing time at the end of the 3rd quarter (Randle's 40 minute decision making was the main reason the Knicks loss games they had 20 point leads in.)!
The best thing I could say bout Randle are .. Randle's an all-star player in the first quarter of a game and have been a BUST in the 4th quarter of games.
Without Brunson talent in the 4th quarter the Knicks can't buy a win.
Without D.Rose talent in the 4th quarter the Knicks couldn't buy a win in 2021.

Just out of curiosity has anyone ever wondered if these guys like IQ, McBride, Grimes.....maybe these guys are putting up these numbers and looking the way they are, in part because of HOW Thibs in employing them? Maybe IQ's looks like a chucker with sometimes questionable decision making with more minutes? McBride maybe looks like a 3rd string defensive PG with no offense with more minutes?

All I am saying is, how they are being deployed is playing a part in how they look.

I mean, all everyone said when Thibs got here was he can't develop talent, yet here we are complaining that ALL these guys he developed are these awesome players that he is short changing.
So far he has developed (to the point where they are seen as real players)

IQ (can you really tell me his crazy improvement on defense didn't have any contributions from Thibs?)
Grimes
Randle to a degree (he wasn't this good under Fiz or the Westchester coach that replaced him)
Robinson
McBride
Sims
Barrett has made strides under him (that might be natural growth)

No matter what you say, fact is, all of these players have progressed under Thibs.

The only ones you can say he hasn't developed, to a point, are Obi and Cam, who are now some mythical figures that Thibs is holding back from being transcendent players. Yet Obi has developed from a strict rim runner who can't shoot to one of the better corner 3 point shooters in the league and Cam, in his time that he was playing looked better than at any time in Atlanta.

Everyone said he screwed over Kemba. Other than one game, how is that working for Dallas?
Bullock looked much better in Thibs system than in Dallas'.
Taj doesn't look like the same player in Washington.
Noel is not the same player in Detroit.
Everyone cried that Burks was getting too much time as a PG in NY, and he is playing so well in Detroit, at least one Detroit outlet is saying he should start, possibly at PG.

https://www.mlive.com/pistons/2023/01/alec-burks-should-start-and-other-pistons-takeaways-from-loss-to-blazers.html

Time to give Burks starter minutes
Speaking of tinkering with the starting lineup, Casey should consider naming Alec Burks as a starter if changes are looming. Obviously inserting Burks into the starting unit would mean that Killian Hayes or lottery pick Jaden Ivey would head to the bench, but maybe that’s for the best.

On Monday, Burks finished with 19 points and three assists in just over 24 minutes. One thing that’s been very impressive about Burks in recent weeks is his ability to draw fouls and cash in on opportunities at the free-throw line. Last night, Burks went 8-for-9 at the charity stripe.

The goal for the Pistons right now is to develop their young talent and swapping Ivey or Hayes out of the starting unit for a 12-year veteran contradicts that. However, over the last five games, Burks has been a 50-60-85 guy. He’s averaging 19.4 points while shooting 53% from the field, 62% from behind the arc, and 85% from the free throw line.

Developing young talent is important, but so is winning games. Hayes or Ivey would most certainly receive help from playing alongside a savvy veteran to start the games, as they on-court guidance could help.

Just google Alec Burks Detroit and see some of the articles written about him.

Joe trying to talk some sense into this guy:

Kemet wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Playoffs, playoffs, playoffs.

Getting there, and how well the team plays, should decide Thibs fate.

Thibs is a veteran coach, isnt his first rodeo, so I dont want to see the Knicks get eliminated without a fight.

No! Doc Rivers is the veteran coach, and Thibs is the ball on ball assistant coach that got a head coaching job from Doc Rivers and the Big-3 championship. Plus at that time no NBA head coach wanted to replace HOF Head Coach Phil Jackson on the Chicago Bulls. Thibs inherited a playoff roster when he arrived in Chi Town, and messed that up.

Sorry, but wtf are you talking about? Jackson left the Bulls in 1998. Thibs' first Head Coaching gig was 8 head coaches later (Floyd, Berry, Cartright, Myers, Skyles, Myers, Boylan and Del Negro) 12 years later with the Bulls in 2010. The Bulls were a .500 team the year prior to Thibs and he won 62 games and Conf Finals in his first year. Please stop lying to try to advance your agenda.

blkexec wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Over the last 12 days, Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks have blown a 23-point home lead to the Hawks, gave up a franchise record 27 threes to the Celtics (also at home), were decimated by 27 by a Nets team that had been mired in turmoil just days earlier, and now gave up their most points in regulation in nearly 43 years.

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. Four times? That’s a hot seat.

Sam started this thread and dipped out. 19 pages later, do you still want Thibs fired Sam?

For me, it’s the blown leads that I didn’t like and thought Thibs rigidity was part of the problem. But we have been playing better since those blown leads and thibs has shown the willingness to adjust so can’t complain about that now.

Also I always complained (in the past) the organization including Thibs treats Randle different than the other players. Well, even if that was true, Randle is our star or top dog. And every top dog is treated different than other players. That’s just life. So I stopped complaining about that and meanwhile Randle has been killing and playing better lately.

I personally don’t think there’s a better coach ready to do anything better than Thibs right now. And the team as a whole is finally doing something Knicks fans are not used to seeing. chemistry building from the players to coaches to the FO. We are starting to see some sort of synergy and positive results as the outcomes.

Ill admit the fire Thibs chants was premature. Thibs is still puzzling to me like keeping Randle in the game that long with a 20 pt lead in the last game. He gave some dude off the bench 21 secs of garbage time (is that normal). I don’t know. Maybe I’m picky or still have this “thibs runs his players into the ground” thoughts from his past rumors. Eventhough overall he’s playing his players the same as every coach, per the stats.

But overall I’m seeing good progress all around. 👏
We still need to make small trades but only to build on top of what we have.

I posted the below quote in this thread on 11/23/2022 1:00 PM. It's funny that people are keeping it going for another 12+ pages. I've been back on board the Thibs train for a while.

At that point in the season, after seeing JAcques Vaughn turn Brooklyn's season around, I was open to the idea of handing the keys to Jonny Bryant and hoping for. a similar turnaround. But then a funny thing happened, Thibs actually adjusted. Shortened the rotation and they went 3-2 on a tough west coast swing. At that point I saw the team still hadn't given up when they had every reason to give up. Gotta credit Coach for that.

At this point to any remaining "Fire Thibs" guys I say give Thibs at least the rest of the year, at this point its too late to fire the coach.

Randle has also turned his act around 100%. Gotta ride this out... his trade value is restored we don't have to deal him unless we get a great offer.

Sambakick wrote:I started this thread after watching the Knicks squander huge leads and be non-competitive vs OKC, Brooklyn, Atlanta, Milwaukee et al. I watched as Thibs made RJ and JB accountable on the bench while Randle payed no price for his miscues and lapses. I watched guys like Fournier play minutes instead of a healthy Grimes. There was a lot of weird stuff happening and I saw this road trip as a good point to ease in an assistant coach and rally the team like the NETS got when firing Nash and promoting Vaughn.

I want to say unequivocally that I WAS WRONG about firing him now. Thibs still has his flaws, and we probably will transition off of Thibs at some point. Randle and RJ playing non-existent defense this year isn't helping Thibs but he has earned at least until the all-star break, showing he can mix and match and pull wins out of thin air on the second night of b2bs on the road. The team is playing for him. There are still flaws but most of the guys haven't tuned him out. Randle is an uncoachable POS so it's hard to pin that on Thibs, but THibs has OBI waiting to it's also hard not to blame Thibs when Randle is out there looking lost on D.

Lock this thread. He shouldn't be fired. Yet.

Alpha1971 wrote:Bring back Fizdale, Lebron might become available again. Kidding.

Ouch.

blkexec wrote:Joe (great name btw)

That was a great post reply. Very clear, no insults……thank you sir.

Me personally, i think it’s impossible to not give the head coach credit for any player development (negative or positive). We tend to pick a side and justify the positive development side which you clearly called out. But there’s always negatives as well with development that for some reason, some of us ignore which is fine.

What I get upset about is when someone brings up the opposite view, the response is “your a thibs or Randle hater”. That doesn’t make any since to me to have 15 pages on someone’s a hater / lover or not. And sorry it’s been a while since I was in a thibs discussion because I’ve moved on and realized thibs is currently our best option and clearly has some positive impacts and results to show. I’ve already given him his flowers.

But Whether I think he’s a long term or championship coaching solution or not. Only time will tell. I have my doubts but I love when results prove me wrong, for the betterment of the team. We all bleed orange and blue (regardless who’s the coach). Thibs is trying to adjust and you can see that.

With Burks, I was more down on thibs NOT PLAYING IQ/grimes/deuce more than Burks playing PG. I always said Burks was our MJ. He was our closer. And I think that’s what we needed, especially in the playoffs. Moving him to PG it seemed like Burks wasn’t the same MJ type in the 4th. And for this team, him at PG was a negative impact on our team winning percentage and young player development.

So I’m not surprised at Burks playing well in Detroit at PG. Each team has a different system, culture, chemistry. But again I give thibs credit for Burks success in Detroit at PG. Without thibs experiment Burks here in ny at point, Burks would probably be in his normal SG / SF role right now in Detroit.

Thank you. Appreciate the compliment.

No coach is perfect and every coach needs a modicum of talent to win (look at Popovich now in San Antonio-even good coaches need good talent). The key is whether a coach can minimize his weaknesses. Thibs, got a label of a player killer (which he isn't. I think I disproved that in another thread), who can't develop talent (he obviously can). The things that seems to stick is that his offensive game plans are simplistic (they are, but they are old school effective but he has recently managed to up his pace and shoot a ton more threes) and he is too habitual.

This board is rife with labeling. From the I domitable starphucker label (I hated that Nalod) to the current hater/lover labels, it can be tough to have an objective conversation dealing in the reality of no one is perfect.

Every coach has a system and needs the right players to execute it. Thibs has obviously found a good combination (regardless of how much Cam Reddish or Obi Toppin plays). Everyone focuses so much on past labels sometimes the reality of the situation is ignored.

blkexec wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:Joe (great name btw)

That was a great post reply. Very clear, no insults……thank you sir.

Me personally, i think it’s impossible to not give the head coach credit for any player development (negative or positive). We tend to pick a side and justify the positive development side which you clearly called out. But there’s always negatives as well with development that for some reason, some of us ignore which is fine.

What I get upset about is when someone brings up the opposite view, the response is “your a thibs or Randle hater”. That doesn’t make any since to me to have 15 pages on someone’s a hater / lover or not. And sorry it’s been a while since I was in a thibs discussion because I’ve moved on and realized thibs is currently our best option and clearly has some positive impacts and results to show. I’ve already given him his flowers.

But Whether I think he’s a long term or championship coaching solution or not. Only time will tell. I have my doubts but I love when results prove me wrong, for the betterment of the team. We all bleed orange and blue (regardless who’s the coach). Thibs is trying to adjust and you can see that.

With Burks, I was more down on thibs NOT PLAYING IQ/grimes/deuce more than Burks playing PG. I always said Burks was our MJ. He was our closer. And I think that’s what we needed, especially in the playoffs. Moving him to PG it seemed like Burks wasn’t the same MJ type in the 4th. And for this team, him at PG was a negative impact on our team winning percentage and young player development.

So I’m not surprised at Burks playing well in Detroit at PG. Each team has a different system, culture, chemistry. But again I give thibs credit for Burks success in Detroit at PG. Without thibs experiment Burks here in ny at point, Burks would probably be in his normal SG / SF role right now in Detroit.

Thank you. Appreciate the compliment.

No coach is perfect and every coach needs a modicum of talent to win (look at Popovich now in San Antonio-even good coaches need good talent). The key is whether a coach can minimize his weaknesses. Thibs, got a label of a player killer (which he isn't. I think I disproved that in another thread), who can't develop talent (he obviously can). The things that seems to stick is that his offensive game plans are simplistic (they are, but they are old school effective but he has recently managed to up his pace and shoot a ton more threes) and he is too habitual.

This board is rife with labeling. From the I domitable starphucker label (I hated that Nalod) to the current hater/lover labels, it can be tough to have an objective conversation dealing in the reality of no one is perfect.

Every coach has a system and needs the right players to execute it. Thibs has obviously found a good combination (regardless of how much Cam Reddish or Obi Toppin plays). Everyone focuses so much on past labels sometimes the reality of the situation is ignored.

Another rockstar reply. Hard to disagree with anything you said. I should’ve known since we share the same name. Joe is my actual nick name outside of this Blkexec label, which you clearly articulated well on how we are quick to throw them around on this site. Labels only sidetracks the discussion.

The only thing I might question in your reply is thibs offense is “old school effective”

I’m not sure it’s old school (for example iso ball in the 4th). I think it’s more about his “rigidity” with his game plans (offense or defense). And if you don’t have offensive plays that the team should run in crunch time, then we will live and die with JBs 4th quarter heroics which is fine until he’s injured. Then it’s Randles time for iso ball and we all know Randle is a 3 quarter player who dominates the 1st half lately. Like yesterday Randle played solid for 3 quarters.

Agree that every coach needs talent and Thibs is great at squeezing out wins with less talent while having the buyin from all his players. I love how they work hard and never give up attitude which is aligned with the coach.

Can’t wait to see thibs magic with better players eventually, since the goal is to win a chip not just make the playoffs. We did that already.

Lol...Joe has been making a comeback recently. Rock solid name. Just enough power to warrent respect but not too much as to intimidate. Joe is my real name my numbers reflect my favorite players at the time, and me in my juvenile wisdom, designed it to be read outside to inside so it wasn't meant to be read 3 20 33 but 33 (Ewing) 20(Houston) 3(Iverson).

Anywhosles....

By old school effective I mean the it the same way that you would view a hammer and a nail gun. Nail gun is fancier, more efficient, faster. But the hammer gets the job done and is alot more simple and alot less flashy.

The little 3 man weave that they used to run at the top of the key at the beginning of every offensive set is gone. But this isn't the Princeton offense or the triangle either. It reminds me of an amped up 90's offense. Their base sets are very half court and pick and roll and from what I see go inside (elbow) out (3 point line) as opposed to outside in. However, they build their pace by trying to run off inbounds plays and Robinson's rebounding to catch the other team off guard.

It's simple in the fact that it at least accomplishes the goal of easy points before the defense is set and utilizing our more athletic players, no one is going to confuse it with Golden State's offense.

Alpha1971 wrote:Bring back Fizdale, Lebron might become available again. Kidding.

Don't need Fiz this time. Just draft Bronny.