mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Love is another 1-2

Flawed but still can build around. Not every team has a Lebron or durant

I thought until recently that L. Aldridge was on that list but Yellow changed my mind and pointed out how inefficient his stats were and after taking a look, I was far less impressed. I don't watch him much but I hear people ranting and raving.

I'd have to see the numbers. He's having a great year as is his team. Before this year he was going the Abdul-Rahim Vancouver route. Big stars on bad teams and disappears.

Him and Melo would make a nice tandem but I think Love fits Phil's system better. But you might have to trade Melo because him and love would form the worst defensive front court in NBA history. If you surround love with a rugged C and ball hawk SF(Pippen, Marion, Stephenson type)it can work. Same with Melo

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Love is another 1-2

Flawed but still can build around. Not every team has a Lebron or durant

I thought until recently that L. Aldridge was on that list but Yellow changed my mind and pointed out how inefficient his stats were and after taking a look, I was far less impressed. I don't watch him much but I hear people ranting and raving.

I'd have to see the numbers. He's having a great year as is his team. Before this year he was going the Abdul-Rahim Vancouver route. Big stars on bad teams and disappears.

Him and Melo would make a nice tandem but I think Love fits Phil's system better. But you might have to trade Melo because him and love would form the worst defensive front court in NBA history. If you surround love with a rugged C and ball hawk SF(Pippen, Marion, Stephenson type)it can work. Same with Melo

His shot selection is very questionable and a TS of 50 on 20 shots a game is awful. He is a good rebounder though.

Not interested.

gunsnewing wrote:Spree was a great knick. Melo is better. Melo is on a higher tier. GS was a losing team with Spree. Melo never missed the playoffs. It's not really worth discussing unless you are really bored. Spree is a great 3rd wheel on a championship caliber team

melo also never made the finals, never made all NBA first team, no all defensive teams, and most likely after this season, saying he never missed the playoffs will have to be stricken from the knick fans carmelo defense quotes... although I know you are not one of those guns.. just saying...

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:TKF,

Take a look at how awfully inefficient Latrell Spreewell was. He certainly had heart and played hard but saying that he is a better player then Carmelo is just plain preposterous and irresponsible.

I am also sure that Bonn would not approve of his horrible .077 Win Shares for his career (.076 in the playoffs).

When you make these assertions, are you going with your heart? Memory? Eyes? Or are you actually doing some research?

When you take a look at his stats, please also take a quick look at his disastrous playoff stats.

If this is being "more dynamic" then I don't really know what "dynamic" is.

LOL you would have thought I opened a bag of anthrax in an elementary school..

please enough with the over the top comments...

first of all an inefficient player is inefficient.. pointing out that sprewell was ineficient when carmelo is inefficient does what? and for the record sprewell didn't shoot a great % at all, but he also didn't take 22 shots per game, he took around 15, he also dished out more assist, played with much more energy and was a hell of a defender...

Again I look at more than scoring... the knicks took on the personality and energy of guys like sprewell, camby and LJ..

When you make these assertions, are you going with your heart? Memory? Eyes? Or are you actually doing some research?

All of the above.. sprewell was a better defender.. do you not agree with that?

sprewell played with more energy? do you not agree with that?

Sprewell was a better intitiator of offense? do you not agree with that?

Sprewell was a key cog in getting the knicks to the finals even with an injured Ewing and LJ, is that not correct?

The only think carmelo did better than sprewell is shoot more... sprewell was a better two way player... and "dynamic" let me explain that for you.. or better yet let me get you a definition.

Dynamic: a force that stimulates change or progress within a system or process.

that is what sprewell did for the knicks.. he came here mid season in 1999 and guess what, he helped lead the knicks to a first round upset vs the heat, a series in which Ewing only played two games, and didn't play again in the playoffs.... and then helped lead the knicks to the finals vs the spurs...

No ewing, and injured LJ, no excuses, sprewell helped deliver... he stimulated change and progress within the NY knicks... he did so by playing with a high level of energy that became infectious , just ask marcus camby, Houston, LJ......

SO yes, I think he was a better knick than carmelo..

the fact that you think that is preposterous is mind boggling, at this point I don't even know if you are worth the keystrokes debating with you.. it is this type of posting that makes having a reasonable debate so hard....

I think you have a very hard time accurately assessing carmelo anthony, which is why I don't see any use debating this topic with you any more.... no offense...

Putting up 15 shots a game when you shoot so damn inefficiently is horrible. He should have shot 5 shots a game and stuck to the things that he did well like passing (4 assists for his usage rate was decent but not good enough to over come his other deficiencies) and playing defense. Having a Felton like TS of 49 that year was awful.

You failed miserably with Iverson, now with Sprewell. I am very fair in my assessment of Carmelo, I am not gaga over him - I think that is why you have such a hard time with my views. I am not just the pom pom Melo guy that others blindly are. But just as those blind pom pom guys do not embrace logic and advanced stats, you are the exact same on the other extreme.

Saying that Sprewell is better than Melo or that Iverson was one of the greats or that Josh Smith is a good player just makes you sound like you are not informed and are not willing to spend the time to do the appropriate research for as much as you post and spew personal venom

You try to align yourself with DK and Bonn but you are nothing like them. At least they attempt to present a consistent and statistical argument. You just tweak as you go so it fits.

Its preposterous. Nobody would hold such an opinion even if they hate a player. Melo has a lot to improve on and I state it all the time. Nobody hates the extra chucking more that me and it does hold him back from cracking the top 10.

Sprewell was more likable. Heck, I like the guy more than Melo just for his heart and fire that Melo seems to lack. I liked Iverson's heart too, but liking heart and grit does not make one a good gm.

I am also curious why his Win Shares are worse than Felton. Maybe because he took so many shots. I would love to see his Wins Produced but I can't find this stat for retired players.

Btw, did you read the wages of wins article about Iverson? You really should. And, I have many more where that came from.

I am not looking to go at it with you and I respect that fans can have their hate guy. Trust me, I have many but I find that you are all over the place and very inconsistent.

I should probably know better and not start or call you on this stuff but you seem so much smarter than some of your arguments so I find that I can't help myself.

You were right about wanting to trade Melo for Griffin though, I woulda done that in a heartbeat.

you are not very good at this.. so tell me, how many shots a game should carmelo be taking being so "damn' inefficient? 6? he is taking 22 shots..

for sprewell the way he played 15 shots was exactly the right amount of shots..

Btw, did you read the wages of wins article about Iverson? You really should. And, I have many more where that came from.

NO! we are not talking iverson.. stay focused.. BTW why not put up a poll on who is better. carmelo or iverson....

Stick to the points..

You try to align yourself with DK and Bonn but you are nothing like them. At least they attempt to present a consistent and statistical argument. You just tweak as you go so it fits.

I align myself with no one.. that is not how i roll.. just admit, you are not good at this, you have yet made one legitimate point..

Sprewell was more likable. Heck, I like the guy more than Melo just for his heart and fire that Melo seems to lack. I liked Iverson's heart too, but liking heart and grit does not make one a good gm.

tell me what team are you a GM for? LOL.. heart and grit mean almost every thing in this sport... funny how you discount that yet both iverson and sprewell led their teams to the finals.. mr lazy chuckshot has the worst playoff record among active players.. and that is not my opinion...

You failed miserably with Iverson

I have never called anyone a name on this site.. and I will refrain, but dude you are absolutely clueless.. I would really like to know when did you start watching basektball? last week?

what are you talking about failed with Iverson.. simple comment.. he was better than carmelo.. as I asked take that poll to a general board, since you like Polls...

Saying that Sprewell is better than Melo or that Iverson was one of the greats or that Josh Smith is a good player just makes you sound like you are not informed and are not willing to spend the time to do the appropriate research for as much as you post and spew personal venom

you see I explained why I feel sprewell is better.. you have yet to address that other than spew nonsense..

If you don't think iverson is an all time great, then you should not be talking basketball.. listen to what you are saying... Iverson already has his jersey hanging in the rafters with the likes of Barkley, wilt and bobby jones.. you damn right he is one of the NBA all time greats..

Josh smith? he is a good player, bringing his name up now is idiotic.. like the rest of your argument here.. you are all over the place.. stick with one topic...

I will ask you for the last time.. after that I won't respond to you again if you do not answer..

what made carmelo better than sprewell in NY?

Tilting?

gunsnewing wrote:Love is another 1-2

Flawed but still can build around. Not every team has a Lebron or durant

but guns shouldn't the same apply.. I don't think love has ever played on a winning team in minny... why such a high ranking for him, but you used that to knock spree down a notch?

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Spree was a great knick. Melo is better. Melo is on a higher tier. GS was a losing team with Spree. Melo never missed the playoffs. It's not really worth discussing unless you are really bored. Spree is a great 3rd wheel on a championship caliber team

melo also never made the finals, never made all NBA first team, no all defensive teams, and most likely after this season, saying he never missed the playoffs will have to be stricken from the knick fans carmelo defense quotes... although I know you are not one of those guns.. just saying...

Melo never Choked anyone Spreewell was a strange dude.

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

You have to be across the board here bonn.. he is shooting 46% from the field this year.. there are wing players doing better than that, much better, he shot 35% from the field last year.. if he is shooting that well from two and only 38% from three then you have to question his shot selection...

PF's should be shooting closer to 50%..

plus bonn, minny has never had a winning record with him.. if that is going to be held against spree and other players.. love is no different.. he is a fine player.. a superb rebounder but I would hesitate talking number one option with him, until he adjust his shot selection..

he has taken a little over 1100 shots this year, 412 have been threes.. if he is shooting 12% points higher taking two point shots than the % should be a lot lower when it comes to threes.. 35% of his shots were threes, should be lower..

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

You have to be across the board here bonn.. he is shooting 46% from the field this year.. there are wing players doing better than that, much better, he shot 35% from the field last year.. if he is shooting that well from two and only 38% from three then you have to question his shot selection...

PF's should be shooting closer to 50%..

plus bonn, minny has never had a winning record with him.. if that is going to be held against spree and other players.. love is no different.. he is a fine player.. a superb rebounder but I would hesitate talking number one option with him, until he adjust his shot selection..

he has taken a little over 1100 shots this year, 412 have been threes.. if he is shooting 12% points higher taking two point shots than the % should be a lot lower when it comes to threes.. 35% of his shots were threes, should be lower..

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

Not sure what site he is looking at but his numbers are ridiculous this year. Not good for a PF? Really? SMH.

Not a good defender? Maybe. Does not make his team better? I have heard that before - not sure how that is quantified. His assists show otherwise .

Not a 2 way player? Playoff record? Not a gritty, tough as nails inefficient chucker? Maybe.

of course you would not get it, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.. ridicoulous... the dude is shooting 46% from the field.. 35% of his shots are 3's and as bonn pointed out he shoots 50% + from two point range.. I tend to like my big men to be closer to 50%

I don't like engaging in name calling but you by far exceed some of the most idiot post I have seen on this site.. I would prefer if You don't refer to me or my post until you take basketball forum 101 courses...

I will not respond to the name calling, however, I will try to educate you if you are willing to actually try to be open minded and listen.

"you like your big men to shoot 50% from the field"

FG% is not what you should be looking at (nobody truly takes that stat at face value), TS% is much better statistic to understand value. You cannot overvalue 2's and undervalue 3's. TS% measures the value of 2's, 3's, and FT's.

Love's TS% is .60 which is excellent. Just to compare a bit, Patrick Ewing for his career was at 55 and his best (TS) season (88-89) he hit 60. Camby's TS for his career was 50. Coincidentally, his best playoffs by far (98-99) he also hit 60. Karl Malone had a really good career TS (57) and his best season was 62. L. Aldridge has a career TS of 53. This year, its an awful 50 and his career high was 56. Hakeem Olajuwon was at 55 for his career with a high of 57.

Harden who's career FG is not good (44) but his TS shows his true value at 60 for his career!

Paul Pierce also did not have a good career FG (44) but in the winning years, his TS was also phenomenal (approx 60)

Durant who is at 60 for his career is at 64 this year which is off the charts. Probably why his WS's is at .311.

Now I just presented a very strong statistical argument for Kevin Love's excellent percentages this year (all of his other advanced stats fall in line as well).

As I have suggested a number of times, please checkout the stats at the widely accepted website below:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

Do some analysis and fact checking. You can feel free to argue with the metrics but make an argument. Don't just ignore them.

And, don't come back with "i watch the games and can judge for myself". We all watch games and have all misjudged players based on our own analysis and ignoring advanced stats.

I am not looking to fight or to continue this unless you are willing to present arguments bases on stats and facts.

I am willing to be open minded to any statistical argument that you present. Please be open minded as well and not discount statistics based on emotion.

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Melo is a 1-2 option

Spree is a 2-3

Hence they are not in the same tear of franchise cornerstones

In a league where guys like Lebron, Durant, and Love are #1s on offense and where only 1 team wins a ring, Melo can't possibly be a #1. He doesn't have the passing or shot selection.

He is not a number #1 option on a winning team (playoffs) at this point. Though, if he plays like he did last night (which I believe that he can), he could become a number one option.

The problem with the contested shots is that he does it far worse in the playoffs. When guys like Lebron, battier and george get physical with him, it seems that he needs to show them street ball style and he forces really terrible shots.

Phil will really need to fix that if he decides to keep him.

I am not nearly as high on Love as you are (yet). What has he won? I really like Rubio but he also has holes though 22 point, 15 assists and 10 rebounds the other night!

Well I said Love was a #1 *on offense*

He is this year perhaps but certainly not last year (though he did not play much). I would like to see a few consecutive years of dominating and efficient offense.

The main improvement that I see this year is his assists are up a lot.

I really would like to watch more Minny games to see how he plays.

I agree with that. Love is a #1 this year because his passing has reached a new level but it is a small sample of games.

how about the fact that love is a PF and his Shooting % for a PF is not that good... ooting big.. I can't make that a #1 in my offense..

Love is hitting 51% of his 2s and 38% of his 3s.

You have to be across the board here bonn.. he is shooting 46% from the field this year.. there are wing players doing better than that, much better, he shot 35% from the field last year.. if he is shooting that well from two and only 38% from three then you have to question his shot selection...

PF's should be shooting closer to 50%..

plus bonn, minny has never had a winning record with him.. if that is going to be held against spree and other players.. love is no different.. he is a fine player.. a superb rebounder but I would hesitate talking number one option with him, until he adjust his shot selection..

he has taken a little over 1100 shots this year, 412 have been threes.. if he is shooting 12% points higher taking two point shots than the % should be a lot lower when it comes to threes.. 35% of his shots were threes, should be lower..

So you just care about the FG% and not whether it was a 2 or a three pointer? If he stopped shooting 3s altogether and had an FG% over 50, you'd like him much more?
With the creation of the 3 point line, FG% became outdated.

I wouldn't say outdated, because at some point your % is what it is... and it does have some telling value... my point is this. if he stopped shooting threes altogether, how much better and efficient would he be? that is my point.. now if he shot threes at a clip around 42-44% well then I can understand that, but that is such a huge difference what he is shooting now to justify him taking 35% of his shots behind the arc.. so yea, I would like him even more as a #1 option if he took the shot he made much more efficiently more of the time....