tkf wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:This is where I have to call B.S. Sometimes teams win despite not measuring up to some prescribed statistic. The Knicks won 54 games and likely would've won more with better health. I don't wanna hear any crap about negative sum players and all this techno babble about TS%. Those are all interesting measurements but what matters most is that your team wins. ONLY ONE TEAM was better in the East last year during the regular season. The only thing that seems to have stopped the Knicks was players breaking down. When the Knicks were relatively healthy they kicked everyone in the teeth except for the Bulls. This team lost to the Pacers playing its worst offensive BB of the year for this team.

This team needed to retool and upgrade and they did. AB provides a needed boost to the teams offensive capabilities and that's what failed this team in the playoffs last year. While it's true this team needed to defend better and rebound better the biggest failure was the lack of scoring. The over-reliance on ISO play and not being able to knock down open shots. So it's important that Woody help AB to give more effort on the boards and on defense, but it's also important that AB score the ball more efficiently and that is mostly going to be about shot selection. Woody has to make sure AB is taking better shots. Having a little less attention from the D will help him as well. AB will also help open things up for Melo too.

regular-season fool's gold teams like the knicks will get exposed in the real season. they struggled mightily against a rondo-less celtics squad. then they were unceremoniously booted in 6 games against a younger, defense-first, superiorly-coached pacers team.

you use the regular season as a means to forge a playoff team, not merely to desperately pile up wins for the highest seed possible, if, again, it is at the price of remaining unprepared for playoff competition.

here is an axiom my fellow knick fans should always bear in mind as the regular season unfolds:

IT IS NOT THAT YOU WIN IT IS HOW YOU WIN THAT MATTERS.

how many times did i repeat this phrase? plenty-- i even had it as my sig. was it dismissed by the "a win is a win" notion? yes. but as with all axioms it proved itself true. the knicks were not prepared to go deep into the playoffs.

some basic changes need to be made if this team is going to do better in the playoffs next year.

hint: selfishness = predictability

dk, woodson is an enabler, it was a big problem of his here in Atlanta.... he hasn't learned, or I guess it is the way he is most comfortable with coaching..

the selfishness will continue because our so called best player is selfish and the guy that is supposed to check that is an enabler..... go figure man...

Couple thoughts......

TKF......you keep referring to Woodson as an enabler and have also referred to him as a clown. Care to elaborate? I'm not really big on the character assassination thing that anonymous fans sometimes do on boards......poor form IMO.

DK......"How you win" is great in the context of teams, coaches and players. There is also cliche's such as "find a way". They know their game plan and how it was properly or improperly executed....and what they need to work on. From a fan perspective......"how they win" means very little, as we are not privy to how they have strategized and/or executed the game plan.

sure.. woodson barks a lot, but doesn't seem to be consistent when it comes to certain players.. for instance he was hard on fields and copeland, would dig into them, even novak, yet I have seen JR smith get a ride many times over for his bonehead decisions.

He doesn't hold carmelo's feet to the fire at all, carmelo can lax on defense, take bad shots. sure he will give a stare, but won't make the point by benching him.. everyone else has to play by a different set of rules..

He did it here with joe johnson, he enabled that iso brand of play, he allowed joe johnson a lot of freedom even sometimes to the detriment of the team.. when other guys, like josh smith would make the occasional bonehead play, they would get killed..

"woody" has his favorites and a lot of time will even trample or disregard the young talent on the team.. (see Teague in Atlanta)... I don't trust him as coach either.. don't think he is that good of a coach, especially if you are calling yourself a contender...

tkf wrote:

Also I would like to know how the Denver Nuggets with the major cap space we gave them, multiple young veterans we gave them who excel in saber metrics, along with the draft picks we gave them. 3 yrs later still have not have gotten out of the first rd of the playoffs and don't look like they made any improvements to surpass that going into yr 4. I thought that was the blueprint to championships?

nah, there is no blueprint to a championship, just one that should and most likely does lead to continued success which in turn hopefully leads you to a ring. One that gives you a better chance to do so over a longer period.. so far denver has set a new record for wins as a team since they got rid of Mr. wannabe star.. they still have picks, they are still young and they still have a window that is wide open to win now,and in the future, a true foundation in which to build on..

on the flipside, we are flipping has beens like artest, kenyon, journeyman like beno, and bums like bargnani.... and oh, guess what, fans are trying to spin this new 2015 plan... while MR. Wannabee is keeping the team in limbo about his plans of opting out.. LOL..

yea, I will take whats behind the denver curtain... if you really want to know whats going on with denver.. try watching...

How you can maintain the "everything the Knicks do sucks and everything Denver does is fantastic" after this offseason I don't know. Nuggets have had a disaster of an offseason- they are locked into mediocrity, they are not awash with draft picks, and their 'young players' ain't so young anymore. And they're capped out longer than we are. They've added defensive abominations Nate, Hickson and Foye- who you would be laughing about if we'd signed!

We have a better chance this season than the Nuggets AND we get maximum cap space before them- we have a better present and future.

Come on man- you can dislike Melo, but for the past 3 years you've lost any semblance of objectivity and you NEVER seriously consider anyone elses view- you're obsessed with Melo and wont rest until he's vanquish from the team- you're like that Captain Ahab in Moby Dick! The thing is, when you're not grinding your axe, you do have great basketball insight- used to love your posts before the trade!

lol, THAT IS NOT keeping it real.. again, more excuse making.. carmelo had billups, the year billups finished like 6th in MVP voting, still didn't make it to the finals... enough with the "carmelo didn't have" excuses.. he is part of the problem his teams don't advance.. he is a wannabe superstar who really doesn't put on star performances in the playoffs..

They went to the WCF and lost to the NBA champs in 6 games. OKC went to the finals and lost to the NBA champs in 5 games. If OKC saw Miami in the ECF or WCF they lose in the ECF or WCF. You can arguably say that Boston vs Miami was the real NBA finals that yr.

yea, those things can happen once in a while... so what is the point again? I guess Brad pitt gets turned down by women every now and then.. so I guess all the ugly guys of the world should feel great huh?

Pathetic reply and not even worth a response.

so here we go again.. carmelo loses because he doesn't have help, but carmelo made the playoffs every year, because he is great.. right? again what is the point of this.. you already admitted that durant is a "batman" type player and carmelo isn't.. so this point proves what? we should overpay for a lesser player because sometimes the great players fall short... although they do so a lot less than the not so great players? ok, I got it.. smh

Didn't make any proclamations on the greatness of Carmelo Anthony. I stated facts, Durant missed the playoffs the first 2 yrs of his career netting him lottery picks such as Westbrook, Harden and they also landed Ibaka in the Westbrook draft. Denver made the playoffs with a decent team but nothing special and drafted Jameer Nelson who they traded for a future draft pick. Then the following yr they traded 3 future draft picks and a max contract for Kmart who gave them 56games 12pts 6rebs playing only 2 games in the playoffs at 14mins a game. they drafted Julious Hodge and traded there other draft pick Jarret Jack for Linas Kliza. They also traded Howard Eisley and 2 2nd rd picks for a young Jr Smith. Nene Hilario had season ending injury 2mins into the reg season.

So lets tally up: one players keeps his playoff record fresh while landing Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka. The other player is making playoffs with a decent team in the brutal West and taking hits to his playoff record and landing Kmart, Hodge, Kliza, Jr Smith.

nah, there is no blueprint to a championship, just one that should and most likely does lead to continued success which in turn hopefully leads you to a ring. One that gives you a better chance to do so over a longer period.. so far denver has set a new record for wins as a team since they got rid of Mr. wannabe star.. they still have picks, they are still young and they still have a window that is wide open to win now,and in the future, a true foundation in which to build on..

on the flipside, we are flipping has beens like artest, kenyon, journeyman like beno, and bums like bargnani.... and oh, guess what, fans are trying to spin this new 2015 plan... while MR. Wannabee is keeping the team in limbo about his plans of opting out.. LOL..

yea, I will take whats behind the denver curtain... if you really want to know whats going on with denver.. try watching...

So now the regular season wins is what matters. Coming on 4yrs they don't look any closer to getting out of the first rd, so how many yrs should we give them? What are they on a 10yr plan? Knicks not only have gotten farther earlier then Denver but in 2yrs they will have even more flexibility then Denver to be a better team.

smackeddog wrote:

tkf wrote:

Also I would like to know how the Denver Nuggets with the major cap space we gave them, multiple young veterans we gave them who excel in saber metrics, along with the draft picks we gave them. 3 yrs later still have not have gotten out of the first rd of the playoffs and don't look like they made any improvements to surpass that going into yr 4. I thought that was the blueprint to championships?

nah, there is no blueprint to a championship, just one that should and most likely does lead to continued success which in turn hopefully leads you to a ring. One that gives you a better chance to do so over a longer period.. so far denver has set a new record for wins as a team since they got rid of Mr. wannabe star.. they still have picks, they are still young and they still have a window that is wide open to win now,and in the future, a true foundation in which to build on..

on the flipside, we are flipping has beens like artest, kenyon, journeyman like beno, and bums like bargnani.... and oh, guess what, fans are trying to spin this new 2015 plan... while MR. Wannabee is keeping the team in limbo about his plans of opting out.. LOL..

yea, I will take whats behind the denver curtain... if you really want to know whats going on with denver.. try watching...

How you can maintain the "everything the Knicks do sucks and everything Denver does is fantastic" after this offseason I don't know. Nuggets have had a disaster of an offseason- they are locked into mediocrity, they are not awash with draft picks, and their 'young players' ain't so young anymore. And they're capped out longer than we are. They've added defensive abominations Nate, Hickson and Foye- who you would be laughing about if we'd signed!

We have a better chance this season than the Nuggets AND we get maximum cap space before them- we have a better present and future.

Come on man- you can dislike Melo, but for the past 3 years you've lost any semblance of objectivity and you NEVER seriously consider anyone elses view- you're obsessed with Melo and wont rest until he's vanquish from the team- you're like that Captain Ahab in Moby Dick! The thing is, when you're not grinding your axe, you do have great basketball insight- used to love your posts before the trade!

Yet he feels obligated to attack players and coaches character. Dude needs to start looking in the mirror.

martin wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

I guess I have to ask, where was Melo's help? Kidd didn't score in the playoffs. Flu was dominated when he played d and his offense was nonexistent. JR couldn't do anything positive. KMart was ok but isn't much of an offensive threat and needed a body as big as his heart on d. Shump, Prigs, and Felton had some moments where they were ok but it was inconsistent. Cope was much more of a presence in Indy but didn't get much time(maybe because he didn't score a point in the celts series?). Also, tear Durant's labrum and have him play against D West and see how effective he is. I believe aside from Westbrook the Thunder were healthy. I don't think Martin or Ibaka had good series but they weren't hurt, coming back from injury or facing surgery after the series.

Has Melo EVER put up 30 points 9 boards and 6 assists in a playoff run or even a series?

But yes, i can say he had help, but when you're usage is hovering around 40 it would hard to see.

i actually dont think melo's off shooting arm injury affected his shot at all, he posted his usual %'s as a Knick.

check out the game logs for Melo: initially hurt his shoulder in Lakers game right around Xmas

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1975/carmelo-anthony

but to correct your post......he hurt his shoulder against the pacers, his knee was injured versus the lakers.

melo certainly was not dealing with his shoulder injury since christmas.

the reason why i stated the injury did not affect him is because two things has happened since melo has been a Knick.

great april play, dismal shooting in the playoffs.

that happened again even with the injury, so is it really fair to use the injury, when it happens even when NOT INJURED?

knickscity wrote:

martin wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

Durants supporting cast didnt show up at all.

But i tell you one thing....if melo put up the averages durant did, we would have been playing Miami in the ecf.

He'll never average 30 points 9 rebound 6 assists 1 steal and 1 block in the playoffs...that will never happen.

Supporting cast not showing up excuse doesn't work in Carmelo arguments. Didn't work when Rondo and Allen ate Douglas and Fields food. Didn't work when Lin was 80%, Tyson caught the flu, and Amare was punching fire extinguishers. Didn't work when Smith, Kidd, Tyson laid an egg and Amare was out again with injury. Didn't work when Billups got destroyed by Deron Williams while Nene and Kmart were abused by Milsap and Boozer who lapped there production.

How about 30pts 8.5rebs 3ast 2stls or 27pts 6rebs 4ast 2stls.

doesnt 30 9 and 6 trump whatever you just posted?

And you missed the point melo actually had help, much more than Durant did, but the point still stands....if melo average in this playoffs what Durant did, we'd been playing miami.

but he didnt average the points rebounds and certainly not the assists.

I guess I have to ask, where was Melo's help? Kidd didn't score in the playoffs. Flu was dominated when he played d and his offense was nonexistent. JR couldn't do anything positive. KMart was ok but isn't much of an offensive threat and needed a body as big as his heart on d. Shump, Prigs, and Felton had some moments where they were ok but it was inconsistent. Cope was much more of a presence in Indy but didn't get much time(maybe because he didn't score a point in the celts series?). Also, tear Durant's labrum and have him play against D West and see how effective he is. I believe aside from Westbrook the Thunder were healthy. I don't think Martin or Ibaka had good series but they weren't hurt, coming back from injury or facing surgery after the series.

Has Melo EVER put up 30 points 9 boards and 6 assists in a playoff run or even a series?

But yes, i can say he had help, but when you're usage is hovering around 40 it would hard to see.

i actually dont think melo's off shooting arm injury affected his shot at all, he posted his usual %'s as a Knick.

check out the game logs for Melo: initially hurt his shoulder in Lakers game right around Xmas

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1975/carmelo-anthony

yes, and he went bonkers in april with the same hurt shoulder.

but to correct your post......he hurt his shoulder against the pacers, his knee was injured versus the lakers.

melo certainly was not dealing with his shoulder injury since christmas.

the reason why i stated the injury did not affect him is because two things has happened since melo has been a Knick.

great april play, dismal shooting in the playoffs.

that happened again even with the injury, so is it really fair to use the injury, when it happens even when NOT INJURED?

foosballnick wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:This is where I have to call B.S. Sometimes teams win despite not measuring up to some prescribed statistic. The Knicks won 54 games and likely would've won more with better health. I don't wanna hear any crap about negative sum players and all this techno babble about TS%. Those are all interesting measurements but what matters most is that your team wins. ONLY ONE TEAM was better in the East last year during the regular season. The only thing that seems to have stopped the Knicks was players breaking down. When the Knicks were relatively healthy they kicked everyone in the teeth except for the Bulls. This team lost to the Pacers playing its worst offensive BB of the year for this team.

This team needed to retool and upgrade and they did. AB provides a needed boost to the teams offensive capabilities and that's what failed this team in the playoffs last year. While it's true this team needed to defend better and rebound better the biggest failure was the lack of scoring. The over-reliance on ISO play and not being able to knock down open shots. So it's important that Woody help AB to give more effort on the boards and on defense, but it's also important that AB score the ball more efficiently and that is mostly going to be about shot selection. Woody has to make sure AB is taking better shots. Having a little less attention from the D will help him as well. AB will also help open things up for Melo too.

regular-season fool's gold teams like the knicks will get exposed in the real season. they struggled mightily against a rondo-less celtics squad. then they were unceremoniously booted in 6 games against a younger, defense-first, superiorly-coached pacers team.

you use the regular season as a means to forge a playoff team, not merely to desperately pile up wins for the highest seed possible, if, again, it is at the price of remaining unprepared for playoff competition.

here is an axiom my fellow knick fans should always bear in mind as the regular season unfolds:

IT IS NOT THAT YOU WIN IT IS HOW YOU WIN THAT MATTERS.

how many times did i repeat this phrase? plenty-- i even had it as my sig. was it dismissed by the "a win is a win" notion? yes. but as with all axioms it proved itself true. the knicks were not prepared to go deep into the playoffs.

some basic changes need to be made if this team is going to do better in the playoffs next year.

hint: selfishness = predictability

dk, woodson is an enabler, it was a big problem of his here in Atlanta.... he hasn't learned, or I guess it is the way he is most comfortable with coaching..

the selfishness will continue because our so called best player is selfish and the guy that is supposed to check that is an enabler..... go figure man...

Couple thoughts......

TKF......you keep referring to Woodson as an enabler and have also referred to him as a clown. Care to elaborate? I'm not really big on the character assassination thing that anonymous fans sometimes do on boards......poor form IMO.

DK......"How you win" is great in the context of teams, coaches and players. There is also cliche's such as "find a way". They know their game plan and how it was properly or improperly executed....and what they need to work on. From a fan perspective......"how they win" means very little, as we are not privy to how they have strategized and/or executed the game plan.

we see their game plan because we see the game. to deny the fan of the ability to understand the team's strategy and tactics is to simply invalidate the fan's eyes and understanding, and while we're at it commentators such as kenny, chuck, shaq, clyde, hahn, kelly, van gundy, etc. etc. is that what you really believe?

or do you get to pick and choose who has valid observations?

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Kevin Durant is a Batman and he got eliminated in the playoffs earlier then Melo did once Westbrook got injured with a better supporting cast.

so what are you saying? Lets not use the he has this guy to help him excuse.. durant has been to an NBA final.. carmelo has the worst playoff record of any active player..

keep it real..

Keeping it real is what I do.

1) -My first reply was to Dk7th meaning exactly like I stated. There aren't many Batman type of players in the NBA. So without one either you rebuilding looking for one. Or you are trying to make the best team you can without one.

2) -The follow comment about Durant was showing that even a player that is better then Carmelo as well as having a better team around him got dominated in the 2nd rd of the playoffs and finished 3-6 once Westbrook went down.

3) -Yea Durant went to an NBA final he also had Westbrook and Harden on his team. Name me one time in Carmelo's career that he ever had the combination of talent like Ibaka, Westbrook & Harden to play along side of him to make that a relevant statement(Keep it real)? The next yr without them he finished 3-6.

4) -Yea Carmelo has the worst playoff record in the NBA. He also made the playoffs every yr of his career starting from his rookie yr. While Durant didn't make the playoffs his first 2 yrs in the league and lost in the first rd after going to the lottery 2 yrs in a row to land Westbrook and Harden. I'm sure Carmelo's playoff record would look a lot nicer if he wasn't making the playoffs and netting the team lottery picks like Igoudala '04 and Chris Paul'05 for the future. This is the definition of keeping it real. Not making statements bypassing the realness behind them.

5) -Knickscity then replied that his teammates didn't come thru for him. Which I explained to him that this reasoning (even though I agree with him actually) is only considered an excuse when it comes to Carmelo Anthony so it cannot be allowed when describing Durant's failure in the post season last yr. Which you then confirmed with this latest reply, "Lets not use the he has this guy to help him excuse ".

6) -Which leads me to my next question. Why did Batman/Mr Sabermetrics himself get dominated in the 2nd rd of the playoffs and go only 3-6 after Westbrook got injured? I would really like an explanation for this. And remember can't use "the he has or didn't have this guy to help him excuse". So if you can't blame his supporting cast, and he is a Superstar caliber player, Who excels in Saber metrics, how does he go from finals to getting dominated in the 2nd rd?

7) -Also I would like to know how the Denver Nuggets with the major cap space we gave them, multiple young veterans we gave them who excel in saber metrics, along with the draft picks we gave them. 3 yrs later still have not have gotten out of the first rd of the playoffs and don't look like they made any improvements to surpass that going into yr 4. I thought that was the blueprint to championships?

1)without an actual batman you must build a team with parts that fit with players who have teamwork-based skills so that lesser players can mesh those skills and create synergy. melo is not such a player. his ability-- let alone his willingness-- to mesh is very very poor. bargnani same. and without a great pick and roll point guard stoudemire too.
2)all this means is that jordan could not win until pippen came along. no shame in that. when robin goes down it will be tough to get past the second round.
3)melo has had billups which was a good start, as well as nene and a younger kmart if memory serves.
4)this is a tired argument-- it validates mediocrity since the first round is really quite meaningless. the only vaildation for melo is a top 2 seed year in year out. third seed is okay and 4th seed is on the bubble to say the least.
5)if melo made others better rather than others worse you would have a point. but he doesn't make others better so you don't have a point. as tkf says: melo should be the help to others.
6)this is a repeat of (2)
7)still young and maturing. losing gallinari was very bad for them. brewer and chandler could not make up the difference. lawson needs to get a bit better at orchestrating and iggy never got settled in to a role. too bad.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Go out side NYC and tell people your a knick fan. They think its funny.

Knicks improved a bit, but so has about 2/3rds the team. Some players that they are developing are ready to step up. Some draft picks/sigings will suprise some. Some teams have one year of chemestry under their belt. Its naive to think just because we improved (subjective) that others have not.

Boston has not, but Nets clearly have. One can hope their chemistry fails, but its naive to dismiss the possibility they could win 62 games as well. Toronto and PHilly are not contending so it should be a two team race in the Atlantic.

Bonn to me is a fan who will intelectualize his points perhaps based on factorals more than on emotion that many UKers exibit.

Is one more accurate than the other? Is one more "FANTASTIC" than another?

Jeeze, we really going to argue degrees of "fans" and the legitimacey of "Troll vs. Hater vs. Somerite vs. Melodite lover"??

Its all good.

Here is the thing about basketball that makes it different then baseball so a lot of the saber metric stuff doesn't apply. You can't come up with a statistic for Kurt Thomas playing on a fractured foot in the last game of his career to start a 13 game win streak and pull his team out of a horrible rut. You can't come up for a stat when Kenyon Martin reminds the refs what a foul on Garnett really looks like but it does impact the game. There isn't a lot of room for proactive aggression in baseball. Maybe on the base paths. In basketball it is used all the time and it impacts games. So does emotion and momentum. You can't come up with a stat for a monster dunk, its just two points but it can cause a huge swing in momentum. Also, having guys like Ron and Kenyon makes a big difference. Both those guys will go there and at least one of them seems to be on the edge of going off most of the time. No stat for that but there are stats for how much better the team plays when that guy is on the floor for some reason.

We'll see if your theory is right. If it is, we should expect Morey's Rockets to be a bad team. And we should expect teams to stop hiring and start firing metrics experts.

yeah we have really reached something of a watershed moment for the nba in terms of using advanced statistics. if you are not knowledgeable as to the nature of staistics or possess good mathematical intuition it is hard to stomach all these stats.

still, as bob dylan said-- don't criticize what you can't understand.