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My Trade Idea -- Marbunny goes bye bye
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Bonn1997
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4/28/2005  4:41 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

hence why I said Lebron or some other REAL superstar free agent
That's a really poor gamble. There are too many incentives to sign with your current team rather than a different team. How often do superstar free agents sign with new teams? It happens, but extremely rarely. They almost always re-sign with their current team, sign extensions with their current team before they even become free agents, or are involved in trades that send them to other teams.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 16:42:22]
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gunsnewing
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4/28/2005  4:51 PM
keep in mind that in the meantime we'll be developing our own REAL superstar in Green and a potentially dominant frontcourt player like Taft and/or a winner/intangible player like Warrick or a center like Petro.

Then add a big free agent signing like a Lebron to that core along with Ariza and Crawford you have a juggernaut of a team!

Thats how you build a championship team! not by bringing in castoffs and having consecutive 30win seasons and 1st round playoff exits at best.
BRIGGS
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4/28/2005  5:05 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

keep in mind that in the meantime we'll be developing our own REAL superstar in Green and a potentially dominant frontcourt player like Taft and/or a winner/intangible player like Warrick or a center like Petro.

Then add a big free agent signing like a Lebron to that core along with Ariza and Crawford you have a juggernaut of a team!

Thats how you build a championship team! not by bringing in castoffs and having consecutive 30win seasons and 1st round playoff exits at best.

You say develop a C like Petro. Petro played in the same exact tournament last summer as Martynas and was no where near as good. Isnt it kind of foolish to blindly over-rate a player that has shown he is inferior? I dont see Petros name at the top of any mocks, yet I do see Martynas at or near the top of EVERY one. His average in mock drafts is 4.5. In the same tournament that Petro avg 15-10-1.4 blocks Martynas avg 17 14-4 on 60% shooting. Petro is a foreign C, just like Martynas. Whats the difference, the color of their skin?
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gunsnewing
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4/28/2005  5:09 PM
Like I've said, I would not waste a lottery pick on neither but if I was to draft one later on I'd pick Petro who at least has some athletism.

Neither will be superstar centers but Petro might at least contribute instead of the 7-3 tooth pick who will get pushed around and never see the light of day.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/28/2005 17:12:37]
fishmike
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4/28/2005  5:14 PM
Briggs... I think we all agree with you there. The reason Petro got mentioned with these multiple pick scenarios is he will be available in the 10-14 range. Think of it this way: If you had picks 5 and 12 would rather have Martynas5 and someone like Warrick 12 or Green 5 and Petro 12. Personally I like the latter but maybe your high enough on Martynas to go with him high.

One thing on the mock drafts is they all kind of slave off each other, especially at the top.
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4/28/2005  5:16 PM
The problem that I have with drafting a foreign project is that they will never have the proper oppurtunity to develop in New York. The fans and media will the eat kid up as he develops becuase most of foreign projects take a few season to develop. The only guys that New York can take from out of country are the Yao's, Dirks, Pejas, the guys that are near ready whent hey get here and only need a little time to get acclimated.

I know some might disagree but I firmly believe that. Darko is getting killed by the Detroit media(as we all know is NOTHING compared to the NY media) now after 2 years of not showing much becuase he's a longterm project, imagine if the Knicks took him? The kid would have committed suicide by now.
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TMS
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4/28/2005  5:31 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

hence why I said Lebron or some other REAL superstar free agent
That's a really poor gamble. There are too many incentives to sign with your current team rather than a different team. How often do superstar free agents sign with new teams? It happens, but extremely rarely. They almost always re-sign with their current team, sign extensions with their current team before they even become free agents, or are involved in trades that send them to other teams.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 16:42:22]

the NIKE contract incentive easily works in NY's favor...at least putting yourself into a position where you have some flexibility to work out a contract w/a guy like Lebron or Wade leaves that option open to you...if you have Marbury on the roster along w/the other veteran contracts we currently have, you can forget about having ANY shot at signing a guy like that...i don't think it's farfetched at all to think Lebron could possibly end up in a Knicks uniform if you made a trade of this nature.
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gunsnewing
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4/28/2005  5:37 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

hence why I said Lebron or some other REAL superstar free agent
That's a really poor gamble. There are too many incentives to sign with your current team rather than a different team. How often do superstar free agents sign with new teams? It happens, but extremely rarely. They almost always re-sign with their current team, sign extensions with their current team before they even become free agents, or are involved in trades that send them to other teams.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 16:42:22]

the NIKE contract incentive easily works in NY's favor...at least putting yourself into a position where you have some flexibility to work out a contract w/a guy like Lebron or Wade leaves that option open to you...if you have Marbury on the roster along w/the other veteran contracts we currently have, you can forget about having ANY shot at signing a guy like that...i don't think it's farfetched at all to think Lebron could possibly end up in a Knicks uniform if you made a trade of this nature.

exactly. Its nothing against Marbury. I like the guy but he is not worth Kobe money,18mil a year. It keeps us from significant;y upgrading the team from 30wins to championship calibur
Bonn1997
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4/28/2005  5:51 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

hence why I said Lebron or some other REAL superstar free agent
That's a really poor gamble. There are too many incentives to sign with your current team rather than a different team. How often do superstar free agents sign with new teams? It happens, but extremely rarely. They almost always re-sign with their current team, sign extensions with their current team before they even become free agents, or are involved in trades that send them to other teams.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 16:42:22]

the NIKE contract incentive easily works in NY's favor...at least putting yourself into a position where you have some flexibility to work out a contract w/a guy like Lebron or Wade leaves that option open to you...if you have Marbury on the roster along w/the other veteran contracts we currently have, you can forget about having ANY shot at signing a guy like that...i don't think it's farfetched at all to think Lebron could possibly end up in a Knicks uniform if you made a trade of this nature.
trade of what nature? Are you talking about including Marbury in a trade to get Lebron or do you have some other trade to get Lebron in mind?

What Nike incentive are you talking about? Are you referring to the *rumor* that Kobe would have gotten some extra money from Nike if he had signed with the Knicks?

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 17:52:59]
TMS
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4/28/2005  6:50 PM
trade of what nature?

see the 1st post in this thread...that's what we've been talking about...as for how i think Lebron may come here, re-read the past couple posts of mine on this thread...if you make a trade like outlined in the 1st post of this thread, you open up the possibility that a guy like Lebron or Wade could end up here...if you have Marbury's contract on the books, you can forget about it even if Lebron or Wade make it public that they want to come play in NY, which is a distinct possibility...if the Knicks had cap flexibility last offseason, they could have conceivably made a legitimate run at a guy like Kobe rather than hoping he'd somehow accept some ridiculous MLE offer...guys like Lebron, Kobe & Wade don't come along very often...if there's any possible way to give your team a chance to get a guy like that, you do it imo...& it's not as if this trade leaves the Knicks w/a garbage roster either...there are plenty of young, talented & athletic players on that roster...i believe you call them "valuable trade assets" on a regular basis, Bonn.
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Bonn1997
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4/28/2005  7:09 PM
If you're talking about clearing up cap room, then you're talking about an entirely different path to rebuilding than what Isiah has shown he's interested in. It would be a lot more sensible to start a fire Isiah thread first and then a thread on hiring someone who wants to clear up cap space for the remote chance that a superstar will leave their current team and sign with the Knicks.
TMS
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4/28/2005  7:44 PM
we're talking about a hypothetical idea here...it's called "for argument's sake"...if your only argument against this idea is that "Isiah won't likely make that trade" then no need to argue any further...i don't think anyone here is interested in hearing what anyone thinks Isiah may or may not do...feel free to start up a thread on that if you like & knock yourself out.

btw, i wonder how Lakers fans felt about their chances of getting Shaq to come over to them a couple years before he decided to leave Orlando for a bigger market? i think that worked out pretty well for that franchise...i don't see a problem in discussing possible ways of giving our own franchise the cap flexibility to plan ahead for another superstar to come to NY in much the same fashion...foresight in planning a move to better our future like this is alot better than staying the course & sticking w/a flawed star & surrounding him w/overpaid bums w/bloated contracts year after year.
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Bonn1997
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4/28/2005  10:55 PM
Posted by TMS:

we're talking about a hypothetical idea here...it's called "for argument's sake"...if your only argument against this idea is that "Isiah won't likely make that trade" then no need to argue any further...i don't think anyone here is interested in hearing what anyone thinks Isiah may or may not do...feel free to start up a thread on that if you like & knock yourself out.

btw, i wonder how Lakers fans felt about their chances of getting Shaq to come over to them a couple years before he decided to leave Orlando for a bigger market? i think that worked out pretty well for that franchise...i don't see a problem in discussing possible ways of giving our own franchise the cap flexibility to plan ahead for another superstar to come to NY in much the same fashion...foresight in planning a move to better our future like this is alot better than staying the course & sticking w/a flawed star & surrounding him w/overpaid bums w/bloated contracts year after year.
It worked out great for LA. They're one of the 5 or 10% of teams put all their eggs in the FA basket and are successful. I never denied that the percentage was higher than zero. You're right that Marbury is a star with flaws. But most championship teams' stars have some flaws too. I see that as a lame reason to decide against building with Marbury. I bet if the Knicks make the playoffs next year, everyone loves Marbury like they did last summer and is so happy he wasn't traded.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 22:57:46]
Pharzeone
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4/29/2005  2:04 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by gunsnewing:

hence why I said Lebron or some other REAL superstar free agent
That's a really poor gamble. There are too many incentives to sign with your current team rather than a different team. How often do superstar free agents sign with new teams? It happens, but extremely rarely. They almost always re-sign with their current team, sign extensions with their current team before they even become free agents, or are involved in trades that send them to other teams.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 16:42:22]

the NIKE contract incentive easily works in NY's favor...at least putting yourself into a position where you have some flexibility to work out a contract w/a guy like Lebron or Wade leaves that option open to you...if you have Marbury on the roster along w/the other veteran contracts we currently have, you can forget about having ANY shot at signing a guy like that...i don't think it's farfetched at all to think Lebron could possibly end up in a Knicks uniform if you made a trade of this nature.

exactly. Its nothing against Marbury. I like the guy but he is not worth Kobe money,18mil a year. It keeps us from significant;y upgrading the team from 30wins to championship calibur
LOL, why do you think Lebron wants to come to Marburyless Knicks team because it is NY. Why do you think any potential big agent free agent would just pick NY unless it was there home. Lebron is playing Cleveland near his home town. He grew up a Cav fan, the only reason why Lebron would turn down less money to play in NY is because one of his "guys" were there. Please name the last "big name" free agent the Knicks signed and I am including years when the Knicks were well under the salary or any other type of cap. Some people may say 96 with Houston, but guess what Houston was lured here by Ewing. You trade Marbury for anything less than another superstar which other superstars are close with, then you might as well call yourself Atlanta North. Mecca ... yeah like 30 years ago.
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gunsnewing
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4/29/2005  2:13 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

we're talking about a hypothetical idea here...it's called "for argument's sake"...if your only argument against this idea is that "Isiah won't likely make that trade" then no need to argue any further...i don't think anyone here is interested in hearing what anyone thinks Isiah may or may not do...feel free to start up a thread on that if you like & knock yourself out.

btw, i wonder how Lakers fans felt about their chances of getting Shaq to come over to them a couple years before he decided to leave Orlando for a bigger market? i think that worked out pretty well for that franchise...i don't see a problem in discussing possible ways of giving our own franchise the cap flexibility to plan ahead for another superstar to come to NY in much the same fashion...foresight in planning a move to better our future like this is alot better than staying the course & sticking w/a flawed star & surrounding him w/overpaid bums w/bloated contracts year after year.
It worked out great for LA. They're one of the 5 or 10% of teams put all their eggs in the FA basket and are successful. I never denied that the percentage was higher than zero. You're right that Marbury is a star with flaws. But most championship teams' stars have some flaws too. I see that as a lame reason to decide against building with Marbury. I bet if the Knicks make the playoffs next year, everyone loves Marbury like they did last summer and is so happy he wasn't traded.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/28/2005 22:57:46]

Not me. I've been saying every since New Jersey embarrassed us in the playoffs last year and Marbury didn't even show up until the last game that I he's certainly not untradeable. But you're right a lot of people still felt he was untradeable. NOT ME NOOO NOT ME!
TMS
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4/29/2005  2:35 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

LOL, why do you think Lebron wants to come to Marburyless Knicks team because it is NY. Why do you think any potential big agent free agent would just pick NY unless it was there home. Lebron is playing Cleveland near his home town. He grew up a Cav fan, the only reason why Lebron would turn down less money to play in NY is because one of his "guys" were there. Please name the last "big name" free agent the Knicks signed and I am including years when the Knicks were well under the salary or any other type of cap. Some people may say 96 with Houston, but guess what Houston was lured here by Ewing. You trade Marbury for anything less than another superstar which other superstars are close with, then you might as well call yourself Atlanta North. Mecca ... yeah like 30 years ago.

the resultant team after that trade was made would include some talented young players who by 2007 could very well turn into stars in their own right...who was on the Lakers that made Shaq want to play there? he's from Newark, NJ for crying out loud...why didn't he simply sign w/the Nets? your entire line of thinking is flawed...the only premise here is to open up options for the future of your franchise...not to be limited by the bloated contract of a player who will be in his 30's by the time this team has any type of cap flexibility to speak of.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/29/2005 14:35:30]
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eViL
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4/29/2005  2:40 PM
Shaq wanted to get into Hollywood.
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Pharzeone
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4/29/2005  4:36 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Pharzeone:

LOL, why do you think Lebron wants to come to Marburyless Knicks team because it is NY. Why do you think any potential big agent free agent would just pick NY unless it was there home. Lebron is playing Cleveland near his home town. He grew up a Cav fan, the only reason why Lebron would turn down less money to play in NY is because one of his "guys" were there. Please name the last "big name" free agent the Knicks signed and I am including years when the Knicks were well under the salary or any other type of cap. Some people may say 96 with Houston, but guess what Houston was lured here by Ewing. You trade Marbury for anything less than another superstar which other superstars are close with, then you might as well call yourself Atlanta North. Mecca ... yeah like 30 years ago.

the resultant team after that trade was made would include some talented young players who by 2007 could very well turn into stars in their own right...who was on the Lakers that made Shaq want to play there? he's from Newark, NJ for crying out loud...why didn't he simply sign w/the Nets? your entire line of thinking is flawed...the only premise here is to open up options for the future of your franchise...not to be limited by the bloated contract of a player who will be in his 30's by the time this team has any type of cap flexibility to speak of.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/29/2005 14:35:30]
Not really, from Lebron's own mouth. He grew up as a Cav's fan, when asked about playing in Madison Square Garden, he said it was just a game to him. Practiced with the Cavs team before the age of 17 (which Stern didn't care for). I didn't mentioned Shaq, but he went to Miami why because he loved Florida, the reason why he left Orlando was the criticism he was getting from the media and fans (bitter lost in the Finals and having children out of wedlock). I guess now Marbury is an old man, I see people now just refering to him in the 30s.
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TMS
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4/29/2005  5:03 PM
I guess now Marbury is an old man, I see people now just refering to him in the 30s.

lol, i love how you assume things that i've said that's just completely untrue...reread over this thread & see what i said about Marbury & how TOR would do well to make a trade of this nature...i don't think i ever said Marbury was old...what i SAID was that by the time this team has any cap flexibility Marbury will be in his 30's...so what exactly did i say that was incorrect or had no basis of truth?

btw, when exactly did Shaq CHOOSE to go to Miami? he was traded there after he gave the Lakers a list of teams that he would accept a trade to because he wanted out...a similar situation could happen w/Lebron in Cleveland if he feels the team isn't taking the proper steps to build towards a championship, but it sure as hell won't happen if the Knicks have no flexibility to even make a trade of that nature to begin with...adding good, young talent using lottery picks now along w/cap flexibility w/an eye towards 2007 (when Lebron becomes a FA) affords the Knicks that possibility.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/29/2005 17:03:26]
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Solace
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4/30/2005  1:47 PM
Why do some of you guys love Marbury so much? Since he's been with the team, they've overall been below .500. The team had 33 wins this year. This is not a knock in particular about Marbury, but you have to face facts. Championship teams are not built around PGs, without some sort of solid foundations. Most teams who are successful take a top-down plan. You get a good bigman (Usually a little taller than 6'7" or 6'8".. ahem) and then work on your backcourt. Since Isiah has been here, the entire focus has been on the backcourt. Well, great, we have Crawford, Marbury, Ariza, Penny, Allan Houston, etc... and we win 33 games because we have no frontcourt. Our problem is twofold. We absolutely get burned on defense in the backcourt and we have no inside presence on the offense and defense because we're so short. Both of these things can fixed by increasing size, but we don't want just big stiffs. Therefore, the plan is simple: get rid of the backcourt defensive lapse, by trading either Marbury or Crawford (certainly not both). Right now, I think Marbury is the better choice to be traded, because Crawford could be a great tall PG and is younger. I also think Marbury has more trade value than Crawford at this juncture. We might as well trade Marbury while his trade value is high. In three years, Marbury won't net nearly as much in trade. So, trade Marbury, Crawford becomes to the new starting PG, and we add some young size with the draft picks we get for Marbury. What's the problem with this? It shows an actual plan. We're not winning a championship for the next few years either way. So, let's talk about a longer-term strategy that has potential.

What plan do you think we're on now? Did you see the team photo. The entire team, except for Marbury, Sundov and Crawford is 6'7"-6'8"!!!! Unless the plan is to tank, I don't see a plan. If the plan is to tank, then we really need to get rid of Marbury, because having him on the team is making us a little too good to get a top 3 pick. Either way you slice it, Marbury should go.

Now, LeBron came up in this conversation. Interesting... Here's the thing about LeBron. There was an article about his contract with Nike. Maybe not all of you saw it. Supposidely (it's just a rumor at this point), LeBron has a clause in there that says if he plays for a New York team, he will get paid an extra $20 million a year by Nike. Whether you choose to believe it or not, that's what was said. Nike and LeBron have not denied the rumor, however they didn't confirm it either. I'm not putting my eggs in the Nike basket, but it would present an interesting scenario: the Knicks with a solid team in two years, under the cap and LeBron is a free agent. LeBron would come to New York, reap in the $$$ and be the star on a team that has a real chance. Interesting, huh? It does happen in the NBA. Big stars go to teams and turn them around. LeBron would be able to do that for the Knicks.

There is one thing to keep in mind, though. When LeBron is an unrestricted free agent (if he doesn't sign a long term deal with the Cavs before he becomes unrestricted) there will be two New York teams. Yes, in theory, he could also sign with the Brooklyn Nets and get his big payday. We will have competition. I don't think New Jersey figures Richard Jefferson in their longterm plans. I think we would be a first choice over New Jersey, but just keep in mind that if the Cavs are sucking for the next few years, LeBron may flee the nest.

[Edited by - Solace on 04/30/2005 13:47:49]
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My Trade Idea -- Marbunny goes bye bye

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