Posted by Rich:

Do you think he was ordered to play an injured Marbury down the stretch, and forbidden from playing Butler?

Nope. I think Marbury wanted to play. Plus, I think it was Zeke's place to tell Herb to bench Marbury. I think its unfair to blame Herb alone for the Knicks trying to win when they should've tried to lose.

It was plain stupid trying to win while we were out of the playoffs race anyway. Now we have to pray that we will get lucky in the draft. We could have definitely end up with a much higher pick if we didn't try to win all of the games that we did....

Nope. I think Marbury wanted to play. Plus, I think it was Zeke's place to tell Herb to bench Marbury. I think its unfair to blame Herb alone for the Knicks trying to win when they should've tried to lose.
[/quote]

would you hire P.J Calesimo??? if not, why?

Posted by gunsnewing:

i don't see the difference either. why would you fire herb and hire cheeks? he's not worth it

let's hire PJ Carlessimo & sign Spree w/the MLE.

Out of all the candidates, Herb Williams is the worst. What exactly did he do to deserve consideration? I've never seen a worst Knicks team in my life time. Not even Don Chaney's Knicks were this bad. Did anything improve under Herb? Nope! We actually quit in several games. And it wasn't by default. Herb was trying to win. How do you give up 130+ points to Atlanta? The team did not respond to Herb. And a Training Camp will not matter. You know who Herb reminds me of? Ex-Giants coach Ray Handley.

Herb didn't get TT to play. TT was due for a big second half, because that is his style. If you look throughout his hole career you will realize that his track record is that he is always hot in the second half of the season....

Posted by joec32033:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?page=2&t=8923
About halfway down the page

Originally posted by BigAppleStar3:



Can you give me ONE good reason to bring back Herb Williams? What exactly has he done? Don Chaney was a better coach. Herb is terrible.


My response back then was....

1-Herb got this team to play with at least some passion at the start
2-Herb got us back into playoff contention for the short time that he had this team playing together
3-Herb concentrates on defense and can teach it
4-Herb is NOT Chaney or Lenny
5-Herb is a young coach who, admittedly has alot to learn
6-There is a possibility Herb can have an amazing staff in place (Bringing Ewing back to coach big men if he stays)
7-Herb concentrates on a well rounded offense where noone is truly favored
8-Herb actually got TT playing well and playing inside (that HAS to be worth something)
9-Herb got Crawford to play a more well rounded offensive game (more passing, less stupid shots)
10-Herb does not a bigger than life coach that will bring drama just by being here (see Jackson, Phil and Brown, Larry)
11-Herb has alot to learn but he does have some potential
12-Herb had this team playing semi-competitively eve though we were losing
13-Herb makes rookie mistakes as a rookie coach, I can handle that, Lenny made rookie mistakes as a coach with 20 years experience...I can't handle that.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 04/27/2005 12:33:30]

MO CHEEKS did a very good job for Portland. It wasn't his fault that most of the player he had there were walking disasters even then he got the Blazers in the playoffs. Cheeks is a very good coach and is a winner remember he has a title to his collection and was part of some great sixer teams. He knows what it takes to be a champion, something that can't be said for Herb.

Posted by joec32033:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?page=2&t=8923
About halfway down the page

Originally posted by BigAppleStar3:



Can you give me ONE good reason to bring back Herb Williams? What exactly has he done? Don Chaney was a better coach. Herb is terrible.


My response back then was....

1-Herb got this team to play with at least some passion at the start
2-Herb got us back into playoff contention for the short time that he had this team playing together
3-Herb concentrates on defense and can teach it
4-Herb is NOT Chaney or Lenny
5-Herb is a young coach who, admittedly has alot to learn
6-There is a possibility Herb can have an amazing staff in place (Bringing Ewing back to coach big men if he stays)
7-Herb concentrates on a well rounded offense where noone is truly favored
8-Herb actually got TT playing well and playing inside (that HAS to be worth something)
9-Herb got Crawford to play a more well rounded offensive game (more passing, less stupid shots)
10-Herb does not a bigger than life coach that will bring drama just by being here (see Jackson, Phil and Brown, Larry)
11-Herb has alot to learn but he does have some potential
12-Herb had this team playing semi-competitively eve though we were losing
13-Herb makes rookie mistakes as a rookie coach, I can handle that, Lenny made rookie mistakes as a coach with 20 years experience...I can't handle that.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 04/27/2005 12:33:30]

1. What passion? Are you talking about that 8-4 fluke streak? Look at the opponents. All, except Boston, were either injured or worse than us. Not to mention we were home.

2. No he didn't.

3. Ne he doesn't. Herb Williams might talk a good game but the team didn't improve on defense. How do you give up 130+ points to Atlanta at home?

4. You're right. Don Chaney and Lenny Wilkens were better. Look at the W/L records.

5. We don't need a young coach. We need a proven experienced winner.

6. I love Patrick Ewing, but it's not worth bringing him back at the expense of keep an awful coach like Herb.

7. I completely disagree. Our big's are very ignored in his system. Not that we have Karl Malone but Mike Sweetney should have gotten more touches. Herb didn't even run a system. The majority of the plays were pick-and-rolls. Especially in the 4th.

8. OK, I'll give him that. But Tim Thomas is not worth keeping anyway.

9. I did not like how he utilized Jamal Crawford. I know JC can be wild at times, but Herb got him to play very timid. JC is not Aaron McKie. He's more like a John Starks. You have to let JC play wild at times. This kid can explode for 40 points on any given night. I know he can also shoot 1-20 but you have to live with it.

10. That's what we need! Someone who is a bigger name than Stephon Marbury and Isiah Thomas. Someone who will not be manipulated and will run the team however he wants!

11. I don't see that potential. Herb reminds me of Jerome Williams. Nice player, tries hard, he just doesn't have the talent. You'd take JYD over Tim Duncan?

12. 16-26.

13. It wasn't all Lenny. He coached the team to many close games. When the game is tied with 3 or 2 minutes to go, that's when your star player and leader is supposed to take over. Marbury didn't come through. At one point, we were 39-31 with Lenny.

Bottom line, Herb is 16-26, the team quit in many games, he didn't improve the defense and we are in heavy need of a real coach.

Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Posted by joec32033:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?page=2&t=8923
About halfway down the page

Originally posted by BigAppleStar3:



Can you give me ONE good reason to bring back Herb Williams? What exactly has he done? Don Chaney was a better coach. Herb is terrible.


My response back then was....

1-Herb got this team to play with at least some passion at the start
2-Herb got us back into playoff contention for the short time that he had this team playing together
3-Herb concentrates on defense and can teach it
4-Herb is NOT Chaney or Lenny
5-Herb is a young coach who, admittedly has alot to learn
6-There is a possibility Herb can have an amazing staff in place (Bringing Ewing back to coach big men if he stays)
7-Herb concentrates on a well rounded offense where noone is truly favored
8-Herb actually got TT playing well and playing inside (that HAS to be worth something)
9-Herb got Crawford to play a more well rounded offensive game (more passing, less stupid shots)
10-Herb does not a bigger than life coach that will bring drama just by being here (see Jackson, Phil and Brown, Larry)
11-Herb has alot to learn but he does have some potential
12-Herb had this team playing semi-competitively eve though we were losing
13-Herb makes rookie mistakes as a rookie coach, I can handle that, Lenny made rookie mistakes as a coach with 20 years experience...I can't handle that.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 04/27/2005 12:33:30]

1. What passion? Are you talking about that 8-4 fluke streak? Look at the opponents. All, except Boston, were either injured or worse than us. Not to mention we were home.

2. No he didn't.

3. Ne he doesn't. Herb Williams might talk a good game but the team didn't improve on defense. How do you give up 130+ points to Atlanta at home?

4. You're right. Don Chaney and Lenny Wilkens were better. Look at the W/L records.

5. We don't need a young coach. We need a proven experienced winner.

6. I love Patrick Ewing, but it's not worth bringing him back at the expense of keep an awful coach like Herb.

7. I completely disagree. Our big's are very ignored in his system. Not that we have Karl Malone but Mike Sweetney should have gotten more touches. Herb didn't even run a system. The majority of the plays were pick-and-rolls. Especially in the 4th.

8. OK, I'll give him that. But Tim Thomas is not worth keeping anyway.

9. I did not like how he utilized Jamal Crawford. I know JC can be wild at times, but Herb got him to play very timid. JC is not Aaron McKie. He's more like a John Starks. You have to let JC play wild at times. This kid can explode for 40 points on any given night. I know he can also shoot 1-20 but you have to live with it.

10. That's what we need! Someone who is a bigger name than Stephon Marbury and Isiah Thomas. Someone who will not be manipulated and will run the team however he wants!

11. I don't see that potential. Herb reminds me of Jerome Williams. Nice player, tries hard, he just doesn't have the talent. You'd take JYD over Tim Duncan?

12. 16-26.

13. It wasn't all Lenny. He coached the team to many close games. When the game is tied with 3 or 2 minutes to go, that's when your star player and leader is supposed to take over. Marbury didn't come through. At one point, we were 39-31 with Lenny.

Bottom line, Herb is 16-26, the team quit in many games, he didn't improve the defense and we are in heavy need of a real coach.

We still won the games, which is we were supposed to win, He took over mid season so he had to impliment on the fly and the team was 100 rimes more competitive than with Lenny.

Yes he got us to within a couple of games of the last spot and we were in the thick of it for a while until that last slide, so Yes, he did.

Williams DID improve team defense tremendously and this is even AFTER losing our one "true" (as he is so called around here) center on our team! Look at the points allowed. Atlanta scored 130, yes but the total team concept was different we also took off in transitions alot more.....Faster game=more shots for BOTH teams.

Chaney was here and implimented his own system. Wilkins couldn't even do that after he went senile. Funny I don't hear you clamoring for the good ol' Chaney and Wilkins days.

We need an experienced proven winner to what? Win? With Who? We are going with youth you need a coach who can develop players. Granted Herb totally crushed our youth movement but Ariza did improve playing under Herb. I think the Sweets experiment was doomed to failure since he had the exact same problems he had under Lenny. He seems to be a sixth man at best because of his conditioning, IMO.

Herb is not an awful coach, but this is a matter of opinion and I digress. The best coaches always have the best assistants. That is a fact.

What offensive bigs would you be talking about that should be favored? Our team personell is based towards a very guard dominated offense. Would you like to focus on our 6-9 jumpshooting center/power forward? or our 6-8 (maybe) undersized fat PF? Or maybe our hustle players in Rose and JYD? He featured TT in the post which brings me to my next point...

He got TT to play better. He got a career underachiever to have a better second half than first half. I agree TT is not worth keeping but it does show ability on Herb's part.

JC lacks discipline. But Starks he will never be, because Starks was a GREAT defender also. The kid has the potential to be alot better than Starks if he can put his whole game together. I for one don't wan him launching 3's whenever he wants.

Any coach that is bigger than IT and Stephon is a proven winner and doesn't have a great track record developing talent (does Larry Brown or Phil Jackson have a great rep for developing talent OR do they have a rep for making it play together?)

That is one of the worst comparisons I have seen. What if Duncan didn't actually want to play for your team? Larry Brown will cost us a pick, no way I want him. Phil is interesting and if his interest in us is for real I would pick him over Herb, but I think we may be getting shut out and I wouldn't mind giving Herb a full season.

Ok...I see the record, what does it prove? I already admitted that he makes rookie mistakes, which he made alot of, but tell me which rookie coach comes into the league perfect. Lenny made mistakes we shouldn't have made. Lenny had us at 39-31, but you already brushed off whatever wins Herb got us as a fluke and now you are pinting at this record...remember Lenny was fired because we were at or under .500, meaning he wasn't doing much better than Herb and he has spent a quarter of his life in this league.

Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Posted by joec32033:

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?page=2&t=8923
About halfway down the page

Originally posted by BigAppleStar3:



Can you give me ONE good reason to bring back Herb Williams? What exactly has he done? Don Chaney was a better coach. Herb is terrible.


My response back then was....

1-Herb got this team to play with at least some passion at the start
2-Herb got us back into playoff contention for the short time that he had this team playing together
3-Herb concentrates on defense and can teach it
4-Herb is NOT Chaney or Lenny
5-Herb is a young coach who, admittedly has alot to learn
6-There is a possibility Herb can have an amazing staff in place (Bringing Ewing back to coach big men if he stays)
7-Herb concentrates on a well rounded offense where noone is truly favored
8-Herb actually got TT playing well and playing inside (that HAS to be worth something)
9-Herb got Crawford to play a more well rounded offensive game (more passing, less stupid shots)
10-Herb does not a bigger than life coach that will bring drama just by being here (see Jackson, Phil and Brown, Larry)
11-Herb has alot to learn but he does have some potential
12-Herb had this team playing semi-competitively eve though we were losing
13-Herb makes rookie mistakes as a rookie coach, I can handle that, Lenny made rookie mistakes as a coach with 20 years experience...I can't handle that.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 04/27/2005 12:33:30]

1. What passion? Are you talking about that 8-4 fluke streak? Look at the opponents. All, except Boston, were either injured or worse than us. Not to mention we were home.

2. No he didn't.

3. Ne he doesn't. Herb Williams might talk a good game but the team didn't improve on defense. How do you give up 130+ points to Atlanta at home?

4. You're right. Don Chaney and Lenny Wilkens were better. Look at the W/L records.

5. We don't need a young coach. We need a proven experienced winner.

6. I love Patrick Ewing, but it's not worth bringing him back at the expense of keep an awful coach like Herb.

7. I completely disagree. Our big's are very ignored in his system. Not that we have Karl Malone but Mike Sweetney should have gotten more touches. Herb didn't even run a system. The majority of the plays were pick-and-rolls. Especially in the 4th.

8. OK, I'll give him that. But Tim Thomas is not worth keeping anyway.

9. I did not like how he utilized Jamal Crawford. I know JC can be wild at times, but Herb got him to play very timid. JC is not Aaron McKie. He's more like a John Starks. You have to let JC play wild at times. This kid can explode for 40 points on any given night. I know he can also shoot 1-20 but you have to live with it.

10. That's what we need! Someone who is a bigger name than Stephon Marbury and Isiah Thomas. Someone who will not be manipulated and will run the team however he wants!

11. I don't see that potential. Herb reminds me of Jerome Williams. Nice player, tries hard, he just doesn't have the talent. You'd take JYD over Tim Duncan?

12. 16-26.

13. It wasn't all Lenny. He coached the team to many close games. When the game is tied with 3 or 2 minutes to go, that's when your star player and leader is supposed to take over. Marbury didn't come through. At one point, we were 39-31 with Lenny.

Bottom line, Herb is 16-26, the team quit in many games, he didn't improve the defense and we are in heavy need of a real coach.

We still won the games, which is we were supposed to win, He took over mid season so he had to impliment on the fly and the team was 100 rimes more competitive than with Lenny.

Yes he got us to within a couple of games of the last spot and we were in the thick of it for a while until that last slide, so Yes, he did.

Williams DID improve team defense tremendously and this is even AFTER losing our one "true" (as he is so called around here) center on our team! Look at the points allowed. Atlanta scored 130, yes but the total team concept was different we also took off in transitions alot more.....Faster game=more shots for BOTH teams.

Chaney was here and implimented his own system. Wilkins couldn't even do that after he went senile. Funny I don't hear you clamoring for the good ol' Chaney and Wilkins days.

We need an experienced proven winner to what? Win? With Who? We are going with youth you need a coach who can develop players. Granted Herb totally crushed our youth movement but Ariza did improve playing under Herb. I think the Sweets experiment was doomed to failure since he had the exact same problems he had under Lenny. He seems to be a sixth man at best because of his conditioning, IMO.

Herb is not an awful coach, but this is a matter of opinion and I digress. The best coaches always have the best assistants. That is a fact.

What offensive bigs would you be talking about that should be favored? Our team personell is based towards a very guard dominated offense. Would you like to focus on our 6-9 jumpshooting center/power forward? or our 6-8 (maybe) undersized fat PF? Or maybe our hustle players in Rose and JYD? He featured TT in the post which brings me to my next point...

He got TT to play better. He got a career underachiever to have a better second half than first half. I agree TT is not worth keeping but it does show ability on Herb's part.

JC lacks discipline. But Starks he will never be, because Starks was a GREAT defender also. The kid has the potential to be alot better than Starks if he can put his whole game together. I for one don't wan him launching 3's whenever he wants.

Any coach that is bigger than IT and Stephon is a proven winner and doesn't have a great track record developing talent (does Larry Brown or Phil Jackson have a great rep for developing talent OR do they have a rep for making it play together?)

That is one of the worst comparisons I have seen. What if Duncan didn't actually want to play for your team? Larry Brown will cost us a pick, no way I want him. Phil is interesting and if his interest in us is for real I would pick him over Herb, but I think we may be getting shut out and I wouldn't mind giving Herb a full season.

Ok...I see the record, what does it prove? I already admitted that he makes rookie mistakes, which he made alot of, but tell me which rookie coach comes into the league perfect. Lenny made mistakes we shouldn't have made. Lenny had us at 39-31, but you already brushed off whatever wins Herb got us as a fluke and now you are pinting at this record...remember Lenny was fired because we were at or under .500, meaning he wasn't doing much better than Herb and he has spent a quarter of his life in this league.

Not true. How is 16-26 (Herb Williams) more competative than 17-23 (Lenny Wilkens)?

We were NEVER in the Playoff race. If you thought we were, you were dreaming.

We allowed 95.2 ppg under Lenny Wilkens. We allowed 104 ppg under Herb. How did the defense improve?

Wilkens came in last year at mid-seaso

Lenny's teams were lackadaisical, played with as much passion as a 5 yr old with ADD, and were coached by a guy who made rookie mistakes after being a coach for 20 odd years. Hoe can a guy with that much experience actually design last second plays were shots were never even got off, and if they were they were bad shots?

Yes at one point we were only a couple games out with something like 20 games to go. That is being in the playoff race, whether you are awake or not.

Wilkins system was hold the ball until there were 3 seconds on the shot clock and pray for a miracle and we never ran. Once again, Herb gave us a more transition offense. The equation is pretty simple
The more you shoot the more total possessions there are in a game for both sides. Meaning more than likely a higher average score...Were the mid 90's Cavs teams great teams or did Fratello coach great because he ran the clock down to limit the possessions by the opposing team? Their best defender was Tyrone Hill for Chrissakes!

You are entitled to your opinion but there is alot for me to say to counter that starting with both Chaney and Lenny had prior head coaching experience....Chaney with Detroit and Lenny with Seattle, Toronto and Atlanta Herb is a novice head coach, I am not arguing that, but he is still a good choice.

IDK any reason why his minutes were cut...was it a Zeke mandate to try to make the playoffs? Was it that Herb was trying to showcase veterans for summer trades being we want to keep Ariza? You can't showcase a player if there are no games over the summer! Maybe Ariza was slacking off in practice and Herb had to reign him in...these are questions to which you nor I will ever know the answers to. The quality of Ariza's play did get better. Was it attributed to Herb or more minutes, we will also never know. Do I wish that Trevor played more, yes of course I do, but I also want this kid to be grounded if his head starts to get to big and he thinks he doesn't have to work as hard.

Posted by Cookdcokehop:

Im tired of these soft ass coaches. We need a barker!!! someone that a take crawford out the game and repremand him when he takes those stupid 3 pointers. We need someone to tell marbury he aint nothin but another player on this team. WE NEED PJ CARLISEMO!!!!

let's sign Spree & hire PJ so we can have an even more F*ed up season than we just had...at least it would make for interesting theater.