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question... does anyone here doubt we are trying to win?
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Silverfuel
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4/4/2005  8:08 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I'd predict that whether we have all the cap room in the world or no cap room, he'll stay in his home state.
I have to agree.
I was almost persuaded by the caps
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Kwazimodal
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4/4/2005  8:12 PM
I believe I read somewhere that Lebron gets a big raise from his endorsers if he plays in NY.

Its a slim chance that we will see him in a Knicks uniform but it will be next to impossible if we keep taking on vets like Taylor and Rose and their big azz contracts.I keep hearing about our marginal increase in production since they got here,the key word is "marginal".

I dont care if Isiah has to gut the whole team to get Lebron.If he can do it without taking even more garbage in return then I say go for it.He would be an underclassman now if he were in college.Its more than worth it.Its like having a shot at getting Jordan in 87'.
codeunknown
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4/4/2005  8:20 PM
Posted by tomverve:


Fortunately, Isiah managed to salvage McDyess by turning him into Marbury.

Salvage? Hardly. Trading, 2 #1 draft picks, a collection of ending contracts, Lampe and Vujanic, for a maxed-out star is a gamble in terms of assets (putting your eggs in one basket) and time (you better cash in on those eggs before they expire).

And that gamble is only justified in two scenarios; 1) Isiah magically succeeds in surrounding Stephon with championship components or 2) trades Marbury for greater assets than those for which he was acquired.

Failure, the looming possibility, means 1) Marbury stays a Knick without a reasonable supporting cast or 2) Marbs is traded for crapola.
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fishmike
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4/4/2005  8:59 PM
this is my problem with Isiah's moves so far. He hasnt made one impressive move. I like Marbury but that trade has helped Pho accomplish their goals much more effectively that its helped us.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bobby
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4/4/2005  9:31 PM
Posted by fishmike:

this is my problem with Isiah's moves so far. He hasnt made one impressive move. I like Marbury but that trade has helped Pho accomplish their goals much more effectively that its helped us.

zeke has taken too long to put together a winning season. all the moves he has made looks good on paper.........guess what, they dont play on paper
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
rvhoss
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4/4/2005  9:50 PM
yeah, he's taken waaaay too long. we should have a contender in the 15 months he's had so far!!!

(tongue planted firmly in cheek)

You guys crack me up.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 04/04/2005 21:51:55]
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Bobby
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4/4/2005  10:40 PM
you have loser's mentality. looks like what pistons accomplished going from 32-50 to 50-32 the following season is just a mind-boggling concept
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  11:53 PM
Posted by fishmike:

this is my problem with Isiah's moves so far. He hasnt made one impressive move. I like Marbury but that trade has helped Pho accomplish their goals much more effectively that its helped us.
Wow; even Ariza with the 43rd pick isn't impressive. You're sounding more like Islesfan every day
Allanfan20
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4/5/2005  1:07 AM
Dude, get Islesfan out of your head. We haven't had a winning season in God knows how long. We haven't been past the first round in the playoffs since the year 2000, when we lost to the Pacers in the ECFs. Since then it has been completely downhill, downhill and more downhill. There has been absolutely no uphill. Maybe a little speed bump to get our hopes up, when we made the playoffs with a losing record last year, but that's it. Give us a good solid winning season Bonn, and we'll put on our rose colored glasses. (God, I never thought I'd use that term.)

Bonn, we are YEARS from being a contender at this point. And don't start comparing us to teams like the Suns or Sonics. Last year, Ray Allen was injured for a good portion of the year, or playing injured at least. And we all know what the Suns were going through, and it had to take US to get them under the cap so they could sign the perfect 2 free agents for their new plans.

And don't argue with me, b/c if you think the future is lala in Knick land, with the direction we are going in RIGHT NOW, then you're blind.
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tomverve
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4/5/2005  1:43 AM
Posted by fishmike:

this is my problem with Isiah's moves so far. He hasnt made one impressive move. I like Marbury but that trade has helped Pho accomplish their goals much more effectively that its helped us.

C'mon, what kind of weak logic is this? It doesn't matter one bit how Phoenix does; all that matters to us is how good the trade was for us. The fact of the matter is that McDyess was a big piece for Phoenix only because they were already near cap redemption. Obviously McDyess had lot of value for Phoenix as an expiring contract, but by the same token, he had virtually none for us, except as a trading chip. You're just equivocating here, and completely missing the context of this trade in the process. As if, had we kept McDyess, we would've magically been able to sign Q and Nash? Or anyone for that matter? Of course not, you say, because we'd still have been miles away from being under the cap? Well then, I guess that puts everything back into context.

But let's go a little further. What if we didn't make this trade? We'd have been lucky to win 15 games this season given Houston's injury and TT's mental funk, and everyone in this forum would be complaining even more than they already are, probably about how Zeke hasn't brought in an All-Star caliber player yet. Irony at its finest.
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tomverve
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4/5/2005  1:57 AM
Posted by codeunknown:

Salvage? Hardly. Trading, 2 #1 draft picks, a collection of ending contracts, Lampe and Vujanic, for a maxed-out star is a gamble in terms of assets (putting your eggs in one basket) and time (you better cash in on those eggs before they expire).

If we didn't trade McDyess last year, the crown jewel of those assets you list would have vanished into the wind. It's somewhat like the familiar scenario of a team trading its aging star while they can still get back a good return. If we sat on our hands and did nothing, the net value of our team's assets would have taken a significant hit. That's what I mean when I say Isiah salvaged the McD situation.

The question essentially becomes, are you willing to trade two #1 picks and two iffy Euro prospects to bring back a young, in-his-prime All Star, given that you have to add his salary as if you were signing him as a FA? Given our circumstances, we had to do it.
And that gamble is only justified in two scenarios; 1) Isiah magically succeeds in surrounding Stephon with championship components or 2) trades Marbury for greater assets than those for which he was acquired.

I agree. Zeke obviously still has a lot of work left to do. But he has to start somewhere. Maybe it'd have been preferable to tear everything down and really start from the very bottom up... but can you believe NY can handle that? I used to, until I see how so many people react as if everything is going to hell after one disappointing full season under new management. Now my reaction is more like, no way in hell could a total rebuild ever work here, sad as I am to say it.

I expect some people will pop in here: "no, but see, if this and this happened, and it was done like so-and-so, I'd accept it." Yeah right. Not a chance, unfortunately. The thing I'm most cynical about in Knickdom these days is not the team itself, but the attitude of the typical fan.
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tkf
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4/5/2005  2:01 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Watching these games the last month does anyone doubt our goal is to win each one?

I'm watching these games... we play Crawford 40 minutes, Marbury 40 minutes, KT 40 minutes, TT 36 minutes, Ariza gets 1-2 subs, Sweetney is out at the first sign of trouble, the bench Mo T and Malik Rose... I mean we are playing every game to win right? These are the Knicks best players and Herb is riding them.

Only one thing... we cant win. Not only are we losing, but we are going up against teams with LONG losing streaks... 8 games, 6 games, 8 games.. thats 3 weeks of losing. Then the Knicks come to town and its W's for all. To boot these teams are tanking. GS doesnt care, Portland doesnt care, Milw doesnt care, we care and we still get smoked.

I've been harping about style of play and balancing the roster but this is one of the worst teams in the NBA, plain and simple. Its a little scary that we cant get wins against teams play < .400 ball.

Is anyone else concerned about this? I hate being pessimistic but man...show me something to be excited about.

This is very depressing, that is why we should just shut it down and see what Butler looks like, how ariza plays with 30+ minutes and let sweetney play through his fouls and mistakes and give jamal 30 minutes at the point... Be excited about the draft, that we have a chance at adding two good young players with guys like marbs, ariza, sweets and craw, that is worth getting excited for, be excited that in 3 months you can see possibly, marvin williams, or gerald green running up and down the court with ariza in summer league... other than that, this year is toast...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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4/5/2005  2:11 AM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by codeunknown:

Salvage? Hardly. Trading, 2 #1 draft picks, a collection of ending contracts, Lampe and Vujanic, for a maxed-out star is a gamble in terms of assets (putting your eggs in one basket) and time (you better cash in on those eggs before they expire).

If we didn't trade McDyess last year, the crown jewel of those assets you list would have vanished into the wind. It's somewhat like the familiar scenario of a team trading its aging star while they can still get back a good return. If we sat on our hands and did nothing, the net value of our team's assets would have taken a significant hit. That's what I mean when I say Isiah salvaged the McD situation.

The question essentially becomes, are you willing to trade two #1 picks and two iffy Euro prospects to bring back a young, in-his-prime All Star, given that you have to add his salary as if you were signing him as a FA? Given our circumstances, we had to do it.
And that gamble is only justified in two scenarios; 1) Isiah magically succeeds in surrounding Stephon with championship components or 2) trades Marbury for greater assets than those for which he was acquired.

I agree. Zeke obviously still has a lot of work left to do. But he has to start somewhere. Maybe it'd have been preferable to tear everything down and really start from the very bottom up... but can you believe NY can handle that? I used to, until I see how so many people react as if everything is going to hell after one disappointing full season under new management. Now my reaction is more like, no way in hell could a total rebuild ever work here, sad as I am to say it.

I expect some people will pop in here: "no, but see, if this and this happened, and it was done like so-and-so, I'd accept it." Yeah right. Not a chance, unfortunately. The thing I'm most cynical about in Knickdom these days is not the team itself, but the attitude of the typical fan.


great post, I mean if you look at it, lets say a year ago we were under the cap and marbs were a free agent, if we were to sign him, he would of gotten the same money most likely that we are paying him now, I mean a 26 year old elite PG in this league, a 20/8 guy, that is a no brainer... I did like what It did so far, this is still a work in progress but we do have more chips to deal with. this offseason will be most interesting...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
codeunknown
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4/5/2005  3:44 AM
Posted by tomverve:


If we didn't trade McDyess last year, the crown jewel of those assets you list would have vanished into the wind. It's somewhat like the familiar scenario of a team trading its aging star while they can still get back a good return. If we sat on our hands and did nothing, the net value of our team's assets would have taken a significant hit.

That's absurd. Here's the differential breakdown of assets:

Without Marbury trade: Top 5 (at worst) 2004 draft pick + 2006 Round 1 pick + Lampe + Vujanic + [either expiring contracts in Ward (2004), Mcdyess (2004), Eisley (2006) or cap space post-2007 to sign free agents]

With Marbury trade: Marbury + Penny Hardaway (2007) + Trybanski

It's quite explicit that we maintain sizeable assets without the trade. And presently we have a critical but uncertain asset in Marbury.

So, clearly, this trade cannot pretend to salvage anything. In fact, a good case can be made that the risk was poorly calculated. Simply speaking, a risk-averse GM does not make this trade. A risk-loving GM makes the trade.

And while I won't criticize Isiah for being risk-loving - I will blast him if he bails on the plan and sinks our assets. This trade was made on the philosophy of quickly and riskily constructing a winning team. That leaves very little room for error - and the clock is ticking on Marbury's prime.

Isiah has shown an inclination to gamble assets. But, with that, comes the burden of drawing lucky 7s every time. If he can pull it off, I'll be more than impressed. As of now, however, Isiah has demonstrated a rather average management of assets. To say otherwise reeks of expired kool aid.

[Edited by - codeunknown on 04/05/2005 04:08:07]
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fishmike
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4/5/2005  7:23 AM
Tom.. I have a pretty high respect for your opinion. Ive read you for awhile on the NYTimes board, so let me ask you this; do you think Isiah has done a good job so far?

I can handle the losing, so long as there is some direction. I just dont see any. I see Isiah has added a lot of veteran players with long term deals and bad ones at that. We arent winning any games. I dont see what this year has brought except a good draft pick, which brings us back almost full circle to the Layden era. We have a roster of guys nobody wants and we are hoping and praying for lottery magic and a player to save the franchise.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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4/5/2005  8:36 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Dude, get Islesfan out of your head. We haven't had a winning season in God knows how long. We haven't been past the first round in the playoffs since the year 2000, when we lost to the Pacers in the ECFs. Since then it has been completely downhill, downhill and more downhill. There has been absolutely no uphill. Maybe a little speed bump to get our hopes up, when we made the playoffs with a losing record last year, but that's it. Give us a good solid winning season Bonn, and we'll put on our rose colored glasses. (God, I never thought I'd use that term.)

Bonn, we are YEARS from being a contender at this point. And don't start comparing us to teams like the Suns or Sonics. Last year, Ray Allen was injured for a good portion of the year, or playing injured at least. And we all know what the Suns were going through, and it had to take US to get them under the cap so they could sign the perfect 2 free agents for their new plans.

And don't argue with me, b/c if you think the future is lala in Knick land, with the direction we are going in RIGHT NOW, then you're blind.
You crack me up! You post a one sided message and request that people don't argue with it! I guess there's nothing left to discuss if we have to just accept your view without being able to argue.

The good thing is that there's no need to even argue. Time will tell whether the Fish, Briggs, Islsefan group was right or whether the more patient group was right.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/05/2005 08:37:04]
djsunyc
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4/5/2005  10:36 AM
i have a question:

it looks like we're 2-3 years away from really having a quality team, so if that's the case, wouldn't have been better to just let those old contracts expire and keep accumulating AND using our draft picks since the time table probably would've been around the same (by 07)?

and the HUGE positive is that we'd be at or actually WAY under the cap.

i think, in hindsight (which is always 20/20), i would've preferred going the drafting and letting those players expire route. the records probably would've been around the same while finally getting to cap manageability.

we can diss layden all day long, but one thing i do know is that we actually had a style of play with those players - albeit they were short and fat, but they had a style of play (1/2 court). and for all the hoopla about trev and sweets (who i both love), we DID have a 2nd year PG that earned his way into the starting lineup AND was 3-0 with the team drawing comparisons to clyde by alot of people.

tom - if the progression was spree to kvh to tim - you went from a solid defender to ZERO defense while still putting up the same points, rebs, and assists. that's not lateral, that's downgrading. but i understand the point you were trying to make.
gunsnewing
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4/5/2005  11:09 AM
that is imcorrect. We didn't have a style of play under Layden. Everyone was complaing that we had no identity then. Unless you're happ with 30win seasons. At least I feel comfortable with Isiah as GM with those contracts expiring instead of layden who would trade TT/Penny for shandon/eisely part 2!
djsunyc
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4/5/2005  11:39 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

that is imcorrect. We didn't have a style of play under Layden. Everyone was complaing that we had no identity then. Unless you're happ with 30win seasons. At least I feel comfortable with Isiah as GM with those contracts expiring instead of layden who would trade TT/Penny for shandon/eisely part 2!

i actually thought our team had cohesion - i mean, it basically was iso's for spree and allan, but ward was always at the same spot for 3's and kurt was around the elbow. nothing to write home about, but those teams actually had chemistry, albeit they were undertalented.

as for expiring contracts, 4 words - NO MORE MAX PLAYERS!!!
fishmike
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4/5/2005  11:50 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

i actually thought our team had cohesion - i mean, it basically was iso's for spree and allan, but ward was always at the same spot for 3's and kurt was around the elbow. nothing to write home about, but those teams actually had chemistry, albeit they were undertalented.

as for expiring contracts, 4 words - NO MORE MAX PLAYERS!!!
agreed... we won 37 games with the worst froncourt I have ever seen on a pro team. We took care of the ball and took high % 3's off Houston and Spree creating on the perimeter. I always thought with some better role players that was at least a playoff team. Fortson and Tony Battie were the two guys I thought would help.

Chaney getting 37 wins from that team was impressive to me.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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question... does anyone here doubt we are trying to win?
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