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is this the worst knick team you've ever seen?
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Silverfuel
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3/29/2005  1:32 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

silver, TT at his BEST, only shows up 41 games a year. h20 at his BEST, was averaging 20+ppg, on iso's and pure jumpers and constantly dropped 30, 40, and some 50+ games. if you ask any team in the league, who would they want if they're trying to win a championship, almost everyone would say h20 b/c his jumpshooting skill was unparallelled. but with that said, h20's days are done and tim is mr. fugazy (DESPITE his recent stretch).
Dude, I really dont want to make this a TT vs. Houston thing because TT really sucks! This is about who's (or is it whose?) team was worse.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 03/29/2005 13:32:32]
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NYKBocker
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3/29/2005  1:50 PM
The teams from 1985 to 1987 were really bad. They averaged 23 wins every year. In 1988, Pitino came in and gave Mark Jackson the ball all the way to a 1st round loss to the Bird-led Celtics.

When your frontline consists of Pat Cummings, Jawan Oldham, Eddie Lee Wilkins and Bob Thornton...you got problems.
TMS
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3/29/2005  2:26 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by TMS:

yeah, ok bud...tell me where TT has ever taken his teams when he's been at the top of his game?
Well ok BUD, where has Houston taken his teams?

And dont bring up 1999 cause thats when we had, LJ, Ewing (almost all year) Camby and Spree all better than him!

what a coincidence, all those guys would have been lightyears better than TT...i guess you didn't watch game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 99 when Houston practically took the team on his shoulders & beat the Pacers to advance to the NBA Finals...btw, Ewing was in streetclothes that game.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Silverfuel
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3/29/2005  4:15 PM
Posted by TMS:

what a coincidence, all those guys would have been lightyears better than TT...i guess you didn't watch game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 99 when Houston practically took the team on his shoulders & beat the Pacers to advance to the NBA Finals...btw, Ewing was in streetclothes that game.
Those guys were also better than Houston. Hey that was a good job by him in 1999. That was before he got the contract. I still wouldnt pick him to lead a team especially if TT plays upto his potential.
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VDesai
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3/29/2005  5:12 PM
Not the worst. They've been pretty competetive (lost a huge amount of close games, half of which would have put them into the playoffs). There have been some exciting moments. They've made some plays. One of the most frustrating, yes...
crzymdups
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3/29/2005  5:17 PM
Posted by TMS:


what a coincidence, all those guys would have been lightyears better than TT...i guess you didn't watch game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 99 when Houston practically took the team on his shoulders & beat the Pacers to advance to the NBA Finals...btw, Ewing was in streetclothes that game.

I seem to remember paying Houston $100 million for that one playoff run and regretting it for the next six years.
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simrud
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3/29/2005  5:29 PM
I don't see any difference between the Knicks that won 30+ games under Layden, and these Knicks.

Sure we have young players now, but that is becaue we got those young players draftin low for a few years, when we did not just tade away picks.

But the problems are still the same, bad coach, leading to loosing most of close games, no set style of play, a mess of a roster, etc.

We have a chance at real improvement if use our 1st round picks this year wisely, and actually get a real center or two.

I think the only real improvement that there is some upside with IT as the gm, but I don't like evaluating someone's job on it's possible upsdie. I usually jugde it by what has already been done, and so far, not all that much to improve the situation.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
TMS
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3/29/2005  5:51 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:


what a coincidence, all those guys would have been lightyears better than TT...i guess you didn't watch game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 99 when Houston practically took the team on his shoulders & beat the Pacers to advance to the NBA Finals...btw, Ewing was in streetclothes that game.

I seem to remember paying Houston $100 million for that one playoff run and regretting it for the next six years.

what does that have to do w/this conversation? Silverfuel claims that he'd rather have a 100% healthy TT (a player who's only been able to average 14 & 5 in his career best season) over a 100% healthy Allan Houston (a player who's been on the Allstar team & averaged over 20 ppg twice in his career & several other times close to it).

[Edited by - TMS on 03/29/2005 17:52:41]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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3/29/2005  7:44 PM
Posted by simrud:

I don't see any difference between the Knicks that won 30+ games under Layden, and these Knicks.

Sure we have young players now, but that is becaue we got those young players draftin low for a few years, when we did not just tade away picks.

But the problems are still the same, bad coach, leading to loosing most of close games, no set style of play, a mess of a roster, etc.

We have a chance at real improvement if use our 1st round picks this year wisely, and actually get a real center or two.

I think the only real improvement that there is some upside with IT as the gm, but I don't like evaluating someone's job on it's possible upsdie. I usually jugde it by what has already been done, and so far, not all that much to improve the situation.
Not enough time to judge him. Anyone knows a GM needs more than one offseason. Having 4 first round picks over the next 2 years and a GM that knows something about basketball is what distinguishes the present from the Layden era.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/29/2005 19:44:55]
Nalod
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3/29/2005  7:59 PM
The worst were the two years before bernard came.

Forget giving Isiah time, forget the young players, forget the promising future and draft picks cuz that is in the future.

I think the question is this team, and this record, in this weak conference and I would have to agree this team scrapes the bottom like the worst of them.

This team has played far below their potential given the talent. They have far more talent than the Layden teams, but those teams were mature players of good charactor whom played hard defense. The year after Van gundy left they played hard with good chemistry and went to the final weekend before not making the playoffs!

Even with Fatspoon, Eisley, and Shandon! That is what we should consider, those guys had a better record than this gazy group. Marbs is better than any one on those teams. There is one thing to have a collection of talent which we have, but these guys don't bring it!

So there is only one measuring stick, thats the Wins and Losses for a particualr year! No Knick team in history never went 3-18 in any stretch in any part of a season. Not Laydens teams, not under Don Chaney, and not ever ever! We finish worse than last year, that will suck.

Does that mean we have not future? Naw, and Isiah should be given more time. But is this the worst team I have ever seen? Might be, just might be.
Vmart
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3/29/2005  8:42 PM
This isn't the worst team by any strech. I have seen some real bad teams in my time. I remember teams when Pat Cummings was our pf and c. that was a dark time. But this team isn't that bad it has a lot of talent where a better pg could have brought out the others talent in a more positive way. If I had to point a finger to the KNicks woes it would be Marbury and crawford. Oh yes lack of height has a lot to do with the teams problem. I am convinced a team in the NBA isn't going anywhere unless they have a player atleast 6'10 or more on the front line and must be athletic. As for the glutany at the pf position its a joke but I really like Roses game reminds me of LJ out there with the way he plays defense. He is a keeper. BUt KT and Mo need to be sent on their way. In these last games I would like the Knicks to feature Sweetney more and more. Its only fair to get the young ones in now and let them do what they do. Enough of the old BS of playing vets thats what holds talent back. Its time to prepare for next year enough with this season I don't want the Knics anywhere near playoffs or thinking playoffs The best for this team for the last 4 years has been to tank enough of passing over talent that can help bring glory back to the garden.
Solace
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3/29/2005  9:41 PM
I agree with what Briggs said. As for the worst team of the last 15 years, other than the season when Van Gundy quit, Don Chaney took over, Camby played only 29 games, we blew 16 leads in the final minutes of the fourth quarter and we only won 30 games, this would be the grand winner. A healthy team that year without the coaching disarray is probably as good as this one, but I digress...

Isiah deserves an incomplete for now. He seems to have me at a state where I really like 25% of his moves, 50% of his moves are average/tolerable and 25% make little to no sense. That being said, Isiah has solidified about 60% of a solid lineup. I think we're set at starting PF (Sweetney), backup PF (Malik Rose), starting SF (Trevor Ariza), backup SF (Jerome Williams), starting SG (Jamal Crawford), starting PG (Stephon Marbury). We have an MLE, LLE, and a bunch of draft picks, and some other young players (Butler) in the next two years to try to fill the starting C, backup C, backup SG and backup PG slots. Fill those and we're perhaps in business.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bonn1997
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3/29/2005  9:43 PM
Posted by Nalod:

The worst were the two years before bernard came.

Forget giving Isiah time, forget the young players, forget the promising future and draft picks cuz that is in the future.

I think the question is this team, and this record, in this weak conference and I would have to agree this team scrapes the bottom like the worst of them.

This team has played far below their potential given the talent. They have far more talent than the Layden teams, but those teams were mature players of good charactor whom played hard defense. The year after Van gundy left they played hard with good chemistry and went to the final weekend before not making the playoffs!

Even with Fatspoon, Eisley, and Shandon! That is what we should consider, those guys had a better record than this gazy group. Marbs is better than any one on those teams. There is one thing to have a collection of talent which we have, but these guys don't bring it!

So there is only one measuring stick, thats the Wins and Losses for a particualr year! No Knick team in history never went 3-18 in any stretch in any part of a season. Not Laydens teams, not under Don Chaney, and not ever ever! We finish worse than last year, that will suck.

Does that mean we have not future? Naw, and Isiah should be given more time. But is this the worst team I have ever seen? Might be, just might be.
The conference isn't that weak anymore. 1 through 8 the west has only a tiny edge over the east now.
I'd say the team has underachieved only insofar as TT and Crawford have underachieved. They're really the only two players on the team that I think are playing far less effectively than they should be given their talent.
Silverfuel
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3/29/2005  10:27 PM
Posted by TMS:

what does that have to do w/this conversation? Silverfuel claims that he'd rather have a 100% healthy TT (a player who's only been able to average 14 & 5 in his career best season) over a 100% healthy Allan Houston (a player who's been on the Allstar team & averaged over 20 ppg twice in his career & several other times close to it).
As a individual player Houston is might be better than TT. That isnt saying much. In a one on one game, I think TT will beat Houston. If you are looking at stats, Kendal Gill had a better year than Houston so stats dont count for much either.

No Houston lead team has ever won anything. All the teams Houston was a captain for sucked. I am not sure what I will get with TT playing at his best level but the result will be the same as with Houston. I would rather have TT over Houston cause Houston cannot do anything other than jumpshoot!
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Solace
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3/30/2005  6:40 AM
As a individual player Houston is might be better than TT. That isnt saying much. In a one on one game, I think TT will beat Houston. If you are looking at stats, Kendal Gill had a better year than Houston so stats dont count for much either.

No Houston lead team has ever won anything. All the teams Houston was a captain for sucked. I am not sure what I will get with TT playing at his best level but the result will be the same as with Houston. I would rather have TT over Houston cause Houston cannot do anything other than jumpshoot!

Kendall Gill? Wow. Way to be entirely random to try to prove a point with distant and broken logic.

A 100% healthy Tim Thomas would beat a 100% Allan Houston in a one-on-one? I doubt it, but who cares? We don't play one-on-one, we play five on five, and in team basketball, Allan Houston has been much more of a factor over his career than Tim Thomas. Tim Thomas's best career role was as a sixth man on Milwaukee, on a team that had Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Ervin Johnson and a host of servicable power forwards. Allan Houston has been a starter in this league throughout hsi career because of his talent, and has been on a team that went to the NBA finals, which is further than Tim Thomas has ever gone. All that being said, the only argument I can see if you'd rather TT because he's younger, taller, healthier, etc... All of those things have validity to it. If you start saying that Tim Thomas is better than Allan Houston, then you're just insulting our intelligence.

All that being said, the truth is that I don't like either guy. What would be funny was if you did get them in a one-on-one, one of them would have to actually try to grab rebounds, which is something neither like doing. :P
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Silverfuel
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3/30/2005  7:44 AM
Posted by Solace:

Kendall Gill? Wow. Way to be entirely random to try to prove a point with distant and broken logic.
http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=GILLKE01
He had a better year stats wise. All I was saying was you cannot rely on stats cause TMS was saying TT best averaged 14 point and Houston averaged 20 twice etc. I hope thats not too distant and broken for you!
A 100% healthy Tim Thomas would beat a 100% Allan Houston in a one-on-one? I doubt it, but who cares? We don't play one-on-one, we play five on five, and in team basketball, Allan Houston has been much more of a factor over his career than Tim Thomas.
Not any of the teams he has led which is what I reffered to everytime. None of his teams have won anything.
Tim Thomas's best career role was as a sixth man on Milwaukee, on a team that had Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Ervin Johnson and a host of servicable power forwards. Allan Houston has been a starter in this league throughout hsi career because of his talent, and has been on a team that went to the NBA finals, which is further than Tim Thomas has ever gone.
This is not a comparision between TT and Houston! Houston might very easily be better than TT. No one can argue that TT is better than Houston and that is not waht I am trying to argue. I am saying that Houston led teams have never won anything. Also, all Houston can do is jumpshoot! I dont want that kinda guy again leading my team.
All that being said, the only argument I can see if you'd rather TT because he's younger, taller, healthier, etc... All of those things have validity to it.
YES! Kinda obvious dont you think? Also because he has more weapons than just jumpshooting.
If you start saying that Tim Thomas is better than Allan Houston, then you're just insulting our intelligence.
No, I dont want to say that. I clearly stated that in my previous posts.
What would be funny was if you did get them in a one-on-one, one of them would have to actually try to grab rebounds, which is something neither like doing. :P
TT would win because he's younger, taller, more athletic, and can do more than just jumpshoot.

But like you said, they dont play one on one. They play 5 on 5. When Houston led a team playing 5 on 5 he never led them to anything. He also didnt do more than just jumpshoot. Thats enough reason for me.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 03/30/2005 07:59:19]
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TMS
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3/30/2005  9:16 AM
What would be funny was if you did get them in a one-on-one, one of them would have to actually try to grab rebounds, which is something neither like doing. :P

i think Allan came closer to grabbing 1 last night off the bench than TT did from the looks of it.
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Nalod
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3/30/2005  11:23 AM


There has never been a 100% TT in his career. HE has had those flashes, but they come and go. Allan before he got hurt was a solid pro who was very healthy his whole career. His bloated contract aside, allan was always a great compliment player. Not a focal player, but very very good player, and great shooter! An all star.

TT is garbage, and for what ever the reason, does not play to his ability with does not make him anything but pathetic. I'd rather over pay a guy who tries, then this overpaid piece of ****.

And while he has had personal issues, and I can feel for him, one must say that if he can't get over it in a Reasonable period of time, then he should take a leave of absecnce or just quit! He is a highly ocmpensated entertainer, and if he cant hit the stage, he should back out! I can't wait for the end of these contracts, gazy players ripping off the fans. We pay his salary! The fan pays!
djsunyc
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3/30/2005  8:07 PM
again i ask, in the midst of a 4 game road trip TRYING to make the playoffs and losing ALL 4, is this current knicks squad, the worst you're ever seen?

since my days watching this team, i again say yes. we will be lucky to win 35 games. even chaney won 37 and when dice went down the team won 30 BUT they lost camby in the process so i understood it.

there is absolutely ZERO defense by anybody, ZERO front court athleticism, and ZERO chemistry. it's marbury and that's it. i'm not talking about future or anything, i'm talking about this team, this season.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 03/30/2005 20:08:45]
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