Posted by joec32033:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by tomverve:

Finley is posting a 15.34 PER this season. KT's PER is 14.58. I would hardly call Finley 'ten times the player' KT is... in fact, I would rank their relative worths for their respective positions very closely, given their age, remaining skillset, stats, etc. KT is an above average, valuable PF, though aging; likewise, Finley is an above average, valuable G, though aging.

I wouldn't trade KT for Finley straight up, and I wouldn't trade our late 1st rounder for Finley straight up. I definitely wouldn't give up both of them. I believe KT can get us better value than a 32 year old guard. And in all probability, the late 1st rounder will not be anything special; but it COULD be something special, and I would not forfeit even the slim chance to pick up an overlooked player at that spot just to have the services of Finley for a couple of years on a non-contending team.

please give up on those ratios they don't won't. Finley is a million times better than KT!

Finley is a starter on a good team. KT isn't unless he's playing next to Shaq or Duncan!

5 years ago, I say go after Finley.....Exactly what has Finley done by himself without Dirk or Nash? I am not saying he isn't good, or he wouldn't make this team better, but the whole plan was to get younger...Finley has a HUGE contract and is 32 and may or may not be an effective player in the East on a team where he has to be the focal point.

hey I'm all for Maggette and Hughes but you honestly think we'll get a player like him for the garbage we have? go propose it at a Wizards forum and see what they think!

And who's to say a SG we draft with our late pick will be any good or contribute next year! even if he is good he could take years to develop!

Zeke has made it pretty clear that this team needs a center so he will draft one! adding a young stud center to marbury, howard, sweetney & crawford equates to a great young core and an incredibly bright future!!! and Finley will be a major contributor defensively on the perimeter!

Posted by tomverve:

I have watched both play. I do not come away as impressed by Finley as you two seem to. So how do we settle this? Stats are the only objective basis for comparison. Otherwise it's he said, she said and no one gets anywhere.

somehow i doubt you've watched too many Dallas games to have the nerve to say Finley is not a better player than Kurt Thomas. I think the world would agree that Finley is a much better player long contract or not. Kurt has a long contract too by the way. Just as long....

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/16/2005 14:14:43]

I didn't say Finley wasn't better than KT. I said that their respective values are pretty close. The PER numbers bear my argument out. Finley is better than KT, but not by a whole lot. That you have no counter to this other than to say "you are wrong, just because" is not terribly impressive. To the naked eye and unaided intuition, it might look like a bowling ball falls faster than a pin, too.

Finley is a better player then KT, but let's look at the whole picture.

Finley is injury prone, over 30, making huge money 2 year past Houston, and is just another guard.

Trading for him would be worse then trading for Webber.

Posted by simrud:

Finley is a better player then KT, but let's look at the whole picture.

Finley is injury prone, over 30, making huge money 2 year past Houston, and is just another guard.

Trading for him would be worse then trading for Webber.

No. 1 year more than Allan Houston not 2. which is not bad since KT, Rose & JYD expire the same year. Webber is the one with 2 more years.

Houston: 2007
Finley: 2008
Webber: 2009

Finley would also give us another big expiring contract. We'll have TT/Penny next year
Houston/Taylor the year after
Finley/Rose/JYD/(KT) the following year

Posted by tomverve:

[b]Posted by gunsnewing:
Finley has also averaged 17-21pts on an incredible offensive team while Kurt averages 11pts on an atrocious team.

PPG is a very crude measure for comparing two players. What about rebounds, assists, turnovers, steals, blocks, FG%? What about adjusting for minutes played and average # of team possessions per game? PER takes all of this into account. When you add it all up, you find Finley is not all that much more valuable than KT.

And again, how do you know exactly how the quality of their respective teams is affecting their stats? Maybe having Dirk on his team gives Finley less touches overall, but having the opponent's D focusing in on Dirk must help out Finley's numbers, no? Likewise, would Kurt not be more efficient in the context of a stronger offensive team?

oh I didn't realize we were playing fantasy basketball here. I'm so sorry!

You seriously still think Finley isnt A LOT better than Kurt Thomas? if anything Finley is a better fit in NY & Kurt is a better fit in Dallas as the solid bench player he is.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/16/2005 14:55:14]

I see my efforts are wasted here. Carry on.

Posted by tomverve:

I see my efforts are wasted here. Carry on.

not wasted dude...i get what you're trying to say about PER stats...but you can't just simplify things into numbers...Finley on the court accounts for a much more serious scoring threat than KT, so that means other teams have to adjust their defenses to account for him, which means he impacts the game more in that respect...both players are solid defenders at their positions & rebound well for the positions they play...both players are about the same age...Finley makes about twice as much as KT does, but again, he impacts the game more on the offensive end...both have contracts that expire in the same year...

you already have a glut at PF w/Sweetney, Rose, JYD & Mo T on the roster & you need to figure out an option at starting SG since Houston's health is never going to be a certainty & you have Crawfish proving more & more each day that he is more of a combo G than a regular SG in the classic sense, which means he'd be better off coming off the bench as a 6th man (as is being discussed on the other thread)

i think the points you brought up were legit, but whenever you're judging players, you have to consider the intangible aspects as well & the overall big picture of how you would benefit by making the deal...not just comparing stats to stats.

[Edited by - TMS on 03/16/2005 15:10:59]

1 more thing to consider is the fact that Finley is 1 of the better shotmakers in the clutch in the NBA...you need players like that to make noise in the playoffs because almost all the games are closely contested.

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by tomverve:

I see my efforts are wasted here. Carry on.

Tomverve - Don't get discouraged. I read what you had to say and understood and so will others. Most of the posters have formed their opinions and there is no changing their minds and they feel no need to justify their arguments with facts - but that's what makes it fun!

Fact?! I look at our record the last 4 years and base my judgement on that. Now that is a fact! not looking at stats! It's a fact that Finley would have a much bigger impact in New York winning again. Kurt Thomas has only impacted the lost column for 4yrs!

I'm not trying to be a prick. I realize everyone has their own way of analysing things. But I go by "majority rules" ask anyone who is closer to superstar level. Finley or Kurt and every single person will tell you Finley is. There's more to it then just rebounding. How about having someone who can take and make a last second shot like Finley can instead of having 300 last second collapses the past 4yrs!

I know that but Finley can help us unlike Kurt Thomas. Who can only help us to a 3 straight 30win seasons. Not blaming him at all but he's part of the problem. He' be on the bench on a good team.

Finley would help us in crunch time which we desperrately need and he give us the perimeter defender we desperately need. Hey I'm not a diehard Michael Finley fan but I'm not going to overlook the fact that we would make us a better team for the next 3yrs!