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What is Isiah's plan for the Knicks (Isiah Genius! Isiah Disaster! part 2)?
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simrud
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3/8/2005  10:29 PM
Look man, IT has hired a really bad coach which cost us this season.

That's pretty big my book.

He has also gave up a lot to get players with questionable track records such as Marbury, Craw, TT, Mohammed, etc.

On some of them the jury is still out. Mohammed has been declared a stiff by most at this point.

He gave multiple draft picks and has taken a lot of long term money.

We have 10 guys under contract, half of whom are all PF's.

We lack flexiblity, how are we supposed to give guys a look when we can't even bring them on the roster?

Maybe I should change my sig cause its a little to extreme, but whatever way you look at, the bad outways the good becaue aside from Ariza, even the good is iffy like the Marbury trade.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
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misterearl
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3/9/2005  9:04 AM
>> Look man, IT has hired a really bad coach which cost us this season.

Look man... The Season, last I checked, is not over

>>He has also gave up a lot to get players with questionable track records such as Marbury, Craw, TT, Mohammed, etc.

Yup, I certainly miss Howard Eisley, Clarence weatherspoon, Maciej Lampe and Shadon Anderson. A lot of players. Yeah right.

>>On some of them the jury is still out. Mohammed has been declared a stiff by most at this point.

So, whats' your point?

>>He gave multiple draft picks and has taken a lot of long term money.

Simrud - Isiah has multiple picks and a better roster. it ain't your money

>>We have 10 guys under contract, half of whom are all PF's.

But can they play or not?

>>We lack flexiblity, how are we supposed to give guys a look when we can't even bring them on the roster?

The only flexibility that is lacking is the myopic vision of so-called fans who need a crystal ball to predict what Isiah is thinking. They would not know w piece of jazz if they heard it.

>>whatever way you look at, the bad outways the good becaue aside from Ariza, even the good is iffy like the Marbury trade

Simrud - the bad OUTWAYS the good? Say WHAT?

The only reason the Good is "iffy" is that you resent Isiah Thomas, as a person... period. You despise the fact he has power. You hate the fact he makes important decision syou can't explain and you positively DESPISE his 7 year contract. The Knicks should have won a championship this season right? Cool. Just admit it

whatever way you look at it the Knicks have won 7 of 10 and six in a row at home. What else matters?
once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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3/9/2005  10:03 AM
Its hard to judge, and it is early. Since I am the new haterade guzzler because I had the gall to question our magical GM's last two moves let me comment on what I see:

I see a current team that is one of the oldest teams in the NBA and has more money commited to players than any other team.

I see a current roster that has ZERO chance of competing for a title. I would give them about a 1-100 chance to make the playoffs and about a 1-100000 chance to advance. Heck, Shaq could break a leg and the Heat would still beat us.

And despite those odds I see a team playing over 30 players heavy minutes to win games while guys like Mike Sweetney and Trevor Ariza either get a quick hook or only get off the bench once.

I see one of the deepest drafts ever coming up. One that will be LOADED with talent especially with the pending age limit in the new CBA.

I see a roster of players with expensive deals that few to none other teams will have interest in. (thats our roster by the way)

I see myself hoping for scenarios to happen that havent happened to this team in 20 years. Scenarios that include winning the lottery, or trading for an explosive frontcourt player, or signing a FA that becomes a real steal. Well... theres always hope.

So please... hand me a glass of kool-aid man, because I need it. I'm NOT impressed by going 5-1 in our last 6 games, when Phili and Indy are missing their best players AND coming off a B2B. When the Wiz are missing their best player, an athletic 20/8 forward we have no answer for. Even the Laker win.. while winning in OT was great tell me again why the game went to OT?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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3/9/2005  10:07 AM
well I see a team that is fine financially once the worthless Allan houston is gone and a team that is not making any trades for players who's bad contracts past 2007 since that is the only year they have a legitimate shot at having a manageable cap. Which is why Isiah didn't want Chris Webber and thank god for that!
Bonn1997
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3/9/2005  10:20 AM
Since we're talking about what we see: I see an impatient fan who's not willing to wait to see what Isiah can do with four first round draft picks and several expiring contracts over the next two years. (Maybe you can figure out who I'm refering too!)
diderotn
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3/9/2005  10:20 AM
It would be nice if you could stop whining and enjoy the ride...This Knicks team has been losing for at least 4 years straigh, now that we are finally playing like a team, even when we are the smallest ball club around, but your hatred for the GM is still pushing you to criticize our team....I don't mind the critics when we are losing, but winning 5 out of 6 since the trade is excellent....look at Philly and other teams that have made big moves, and compare their records since the move to ours and see the result....As far as I am concern, we are a very hot team right now that still have rooms for improvement, but I will sit back and enjoy the wins for now.....


So please... hand me a glass of kool-aid man, because I need it. I'm NOT impressed by going 5-1 in our last 6 games, when Phili and Indy are missing their best players AND coming off a B2B. When the Wiz are missing their best player, an athletic 20/8 forward we have no answer for. Even the Laker win.. while winning in OT was great tell me again why the game went to OT?

[Edited by - diderotn on 03/09/2005 10:22:42]
The true Knickabocker..........
simrud
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3/9/2005  11:04 AM
Where do you come from with this I resent IT's power crap. I could care less who IT is, what kind of person he is, etc. As long as the team is improving I really don't care.

As for the money, no its not my money, but have you ever heard of the cap? Rose's deal goes past Houston's, and Mo Taylor is so overpaid the trade wasnt fare, we gave up too much with hat 2nd round pick.

I'm glad you weren't even to get the point about gettin players with questionable track records, just shows your level of understaning of the game, so futher argument with you is really pointless.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
fishmike
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3/9/2005  11:13 AM
enjoy what ride? To 37 wins and a lousy draft pick? Talk to me after Seattle and Mia. We win those games I will enjoy the ride. What I dont enjoy is losing every game on the road by 20 points.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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3/9/2005  11:19 AM
If they can beat Miami and Seattle in the Garden, I'd be impressed. But then, you have to look at the fact that there are 12 road games and only 8 home games after that. Making the playoffs is going to be very hard. I'm lamenting the lotto pick right now, as good as it feels to see the team playing well against short-handed teams.
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tkf
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3/9/2005  12:26 PM
I for one am happy that we have marbury, crawford, ariza, sweetney and KT, our roster is younger and more talented, something IT has promised. I agree with misterearl, I think a lot of people resent IT, because of who he is, the fact that he has power, lost of it, the fact that he has a 7 year deal, the fact that he also plays public relations game the way he does, the way that it was played by many in this league...

I can't see how anyone who looks at the MO Taylor deal and all of a sudden says they don't like what IT has done with this team, I mean to me that is just looking for an excuse to discredit the guy, for christ sakes, did we just trade two first round picks for Kevin willis? you would think that looking at the responses on the board.

Another thing, the 13th pick, or the 6th pick, I am not really that worried, I think with our two picks, we are going to get a player or players we want. This draft is deep, there is no one true franchise player in it yet, and don't hand me that Bogut crap, the jury is still out on this cat..

All in all, I am still happy with the direction. I know layden is long gone, but the affects still linger, had he not put us in such a bad situation, It would have had more room to reshape this team, layden got this team in much better shape from grunfeld than IT got from layden, that is a fact... Give it time...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
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3/9/2005  12:36 PM
a couple things.. you cannot deny that there is a HUGE talent difference from picks 1-6 vs. 7-14. Just look through the history on NBAdraft.net
Another thing is you look for patterns with GMs. Isiah has shown 2 patterns so far. One was taking back younger and more athletic guys, even if they costed more. Thats a good pattern, but another more scary one also is there. Rush moves. you could argue we overpaid for almost every big deal.

I dont resent Isiah... I think he's a good talent evaluator with the draft. His used car saleman snakelike personality doesnt bother me... I think its a positive for his job.

So far I'm neither impressed with the players he's brought in or the position we are in. we are in a bad position and the players he's brought in have been up and down at best. We arent winning more games and the pipeline isnt richer than any other team in the NBA.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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3/9/2005  12:37 PM
fish, you say the knicks are one of the oldest teams in the NBA, well I dissagree, if you look at core players we are one of the younger teams, I mean I could take atlanta with kevin willis and skew their average age number quite a bit..

if you take, marbs, craw, sweetney, ariza and I will even throw TT in there, the knicks are a pretty young team..

we are no older than the Rockets, Heat, who have two core players 33 and older, suns, mavs,sixers,pistons, are just as old..

Again the cap does not bother me as we are slated to lose the contracts of TT and penny next year and that is around 30 mil...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bonn1997
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3/9/2005  12:46 PM
Posted by tkf:

fish, you say the knicks are one of the oldest teams in the NBA, well I dissagree, if you look at core players we are one of the younger teams, I mean I could take atlanta with kevin willis and skew their average age number quite a bit..

if you take, marbs, craw, sweetney, ariza and I will even throw TT in there, the knicks are a pretty young team..

we are no older than the Rockets, Heat, who have two core players 33 and older, suns, mavs,sixers,pistons, are just as old..
Exactly; if you look at the core players, we are definitely not an old team. Saying we are is just silly. Marbury--28, Crawford--24, Sweetney--22, Ariza--19
fishmike
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3/9/2005  1:21 PM
why is Ariza a core player and Penny isnt?

Last 5 games:
Ariza 5 points, 2 rebs, 11 minutes.
Penny 6 points, 2 rebs 23 mintues.
Would somebody please redefine what a core player is, I wouldnt want to be called silly. Maybe you should remind Herb is because I think he's pretty silly also.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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3/9/2005  1:21 PM
fish, with all the euro players and HS guys comming out next year, I can say that picks 7 on are just as good as 1-7, if you look at the past with the exception of the 03 draft with lebron, wade, and melo, the latter picks have been just as good..

2004:
picks 1-7 included Okafor, Howard, gordon, deng, livingston, Devin Harris, Josh childres.

picks 7 on down included: Igudala, ariza, al jefferson, Telfair, JR smith, Kirk snyder, jameer nelson, chris duhon, Tony allen..

Here we can see with the exception of Howard and Okafor the later picks are just as good if not better, Childress, livingston and devin harris have been less than impressive, deng and gordon are looking decent.

2003
picks 1-7 included, Lebron, melo, milicic(bust, bosh, wade, Kaman and Hinrich.

this was one of the better top loaded drafts..

picks 7 onward included: TJ ford, sweetney, Jarvis Hayes, Peitrus, Ridnour, Josh Howard,

there are no superstars in this group but some damn good players, you can argue that Josh Howard is playing as well as melo, Ridnour as well as hinrich, sweetney is not that far behind bosh, and pietrus, Hayes and ford before injury all showed great promise.

2002 draft:
picks 1-7 included: Ming, Jay williams(lol),Dunleavy, Gooden,Dejuan wagner,Nene, Nikoloz skitizvili(big bust),

picks 7 onward included: Wilcox, Amare(stud) Caron Butler,jefferies, melvin Ely, Fred Jones, Tayshaun prince, Boozer and Gadzurich...

I would say for sure that the latter group is much better even with ming included in the first group. the latter group produced a star in amare, a great all around player in prince, boozer who is a stud , and a host of very good players..

This is why I have hope for this year, I think we can land some talented players with these picks and with our early pick a damn good player, I am really hoping we can parlay a pick and a player, and move up and take marvin williams, and with the late pick, take a big man and develop him....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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3/9/2005  1:24 PM
Posted by fishmike:

why is Ariza a core player and Penny isnt?

Last 5 games:
Ariza 5 points, 2 rebs, 11 minutes.
Penny 6 points, 2 rebs 23 mintues.
Would somebody please redefine what a core player is, I wouldnt want to be called silly. Maybe you should remind Herb is because I think he's pretty silly also.

because penny's future in NY is about another year long, ariza will be here for a while, he is part of the knicks future, that is what I mean by core, the knicks are going to build around the likes of ariza, penny will be a memory this time next year, if not sooner...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bonn1997
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3/9/2005  1:24 PM
Posted by fishmike:

why is Ariza a core player and Penny isnt?

Last 5 games:
Ariza 5 points, 2 rebs, 11 minutes.
Penny 6 points, 2 rebs 23 mintues.
Would somebody please redefine what a core player is, I wouldnt want to be called silly. Maybe you should remind Herb is because I think he's pretty silly also.
I was using the term to mean part of the long-term picture. (I.e., a core piece of Isiah's rebuilding plan). Penny is not part of that core, will probably be gone fairly soon, and should never even be mentioned in a discussion of the team's long-term outlook (other than that his expiring contract can aid rebuilding).

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/09/2005 13:27:26]
diderotn
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3/9/2005  1:27 PM
Fish! once again, you are showing your misunderstanding of the game of basketball. Penny can do a lot more for the Knicks than Ariza right now....Penny handles the ball beautifully, he can actually provide Marb and Crawf a breather at the point....Second of all, Penny can postup.....Ariza can't create for himself...He gets most of his points on sheer athleticism and he feeds from Marburry or Crawf...He is not ready yet to consistantly play heavy minutes...I love the kid, but we need Penny's savvy....


Posted by fishmike:

why is Ariza a core player and Penny isnt?

Last 5 games:
Ariza 5 points, 2 rebs, 11 minutes.
Penny 6 points, 2 rebs 23 mintues.
Would somebody please redefine what a core player is, I wouldnt want to be called silly. Maybe you should remind Herb is because I think he's pretty silly also.
The true Knickabocker..........
fishmike
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3/9/2005  1:38 PM
call a spade a spade. RIGHT NOW we are one of the NBAs oldest teams. If you think we have a young core why not just count the guys we will draft in the next 2 years?

Are Rose and Mo Taylor (32 & 29) part of the long term plans? We just traded for them. Why is Ariza core but those two guys arent? They play more. Dont you want your core players who are your future playing the most and developing? Is this part of my misunderstanding of the game of basketball???

Someone please explain... Clearly I'm lost
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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3/9/2005  1:47 PM
Posted by fishmike:

call a spade a spade. RIGHT NOW we are one of the NBAs oldest teams. If you think we have a young core why not just count the guys we will draft in the next 2 years?

Are Rose and Mo Taylor (32 & 29) part of the long term plans? We just traded for them. Why is Ariza core but those two guys arent? They play more. Dont you want your core players who are your future playing the most and developing? Is this part of my misunderstanding of the game of basketball???

Someone please explain... Clearly I'm lost

first of all the ages are 30 and 28, and these guys are short term, simple and plain, as far as counting guys we are going to draft, now that is flat out ridiculous and you know that fish.. If you are looking at the RIGHT NOW then fine, but we all know that this is not about the RIGHT NOW..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
What is Isiah's plan for the Knicks (Isiah Genius! Isiah Disaster! part 2)?

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