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jackie butler was a FREE first round pick
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Bonn1997
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3/3/2005  4:42 PM
Posted by Nalod:

We worried about his bird rights already?

If we can pay off Shandon 20 mil to NOT play here, we can find money for these guys to stay!

Do we have to call him "JACKIE"? That name does not strike fear in the hearts of men!
My only point was that the Bird rights are the only reason he's not as good as a 1st round pick. Sure we'll have money to keep him here. But it will require dipping into the MLE. If he were a 1st rd pick, we wouldn't have to ever use the MLE to re-sign him and we'd have the full MLE to spend on other players. It's not a huge issue. Who knows if he's good enough for us to even want to re-sign him. But *if* he is good enough to re-sign him, then it will make a difference. It's the same issue with Ariza.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/03/2005 16:43:24]
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TMS
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3/3/2005  4:45 PM
he'll be lucky to even make the roster next season at this point...i'd be surprised if he even sees any playing time this season.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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3/3/2005  5:01 PM
how are we going to use the MLE on other players?
Allan Houston
Anfernee Hardaway
Stephon Marbury
Tim Thomas
Maurice Taylor
Kurt Thomas
Jamal Crawford
Jerome Williams
Malik Rose
Mike Sweetney
Trevor Ariza
Jackie Butler
Thats 12.... we have 3 draft picks this year. Thats 15 (assuming they all make the roster).

Here's where the math of Isiah breaks down. We have 12 players (including our good as a #1 Butler). We have 2 first round picks that will have guarenteed contracts. We have the MLE, and we have expiring contracts which to be effective in a sign and trade mean you have to take a bad deal back.

The NBA roster limit is 15 with 12 active.

Answer me this:
Which 3 players are spending the enitre year on IR? Our draft picks? Ariza? Penny? Get real
Which of these players is ISiah going to waive and swallow their deal to make roster space?

This is another reason why the Taylor deal is TERRIBLE. Moochie and Vin were gone after enxt year.. this guy is clogging up a roster spot.

I must need some kool-aid or something.. I'm not getting Isiaconomics.






"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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3/3/2005  5:08 PM
first of all, don't even count Jackie Butler as a guaranteed contract for next year...like i said, he'd be lucky to even make the roster next year...let him prove something in summer league first before you get excited over the kid.

& even if he does make the squad, you have yet to know what Isiah plans on doing this offseason in terms of the draft picks & maybe trading away 1 or more of the PF's on the roster...for all we know, he may package 1 pick along w/KT & either TT or Penny for a star calibre player if he can...maybe Jamaal Magloire becomes available? it sure looks like New Orleans is making some head scratching moves of late...there will be others who become available i'm sure.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
diderotn
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3/3/2005  5:09 PM
Fish! we should worry about the money issue at the end of the season. First of all, we don't know who Isiah will be dealing before the draft. As far as I am concern, Kurt, TT, Penny, Houston, and maybe Sweet may be traded at the end of the season. Isiah is determined to bring in a big name and a Center to help this squad out....I hope that he retains Sweet.
The true Knickabocker..........
bigpimpin
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3/3/2005  5:22 PM
Fishmike, thank you for your intelligence. You had to have been a first round pick
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
VDesai
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3/3/2005  6:00 PM
Butler is more like a 2nd round pick in that he's not really a slam dunk or guaranteed anything, but it's possible that we can catch lightning in a bottle (as we did with Ariza). You generally don't get the chance to sign talented players who are 19 years old, you normally have to draft them...that is why he is like a pick.
Clean
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3/3/2005  7:01 PM
how many 1st round picks are guaranteed? You should ask the pistons they know first hand. the answer is none. Any pick in the draft could become a bust.
GoNyGoNyGo
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3/3/2005  7:29 PM
Posted by bernard:

I'm hoping everyone's optimism on Butler is warranted, but I'm skeptical. To state the obvious: He didn't make the TWolves. They saw his body, his soft touch, etc. Even so, they apparently didn't think he was a worthwhile risk to keep around. Then, he played in the CBA and no one picked him up. We're not the only team who watched him play and saw his numbers.

Listen, I'm hoping he proves me wrong, and I don't mind us taking a flier on the kid, but let's be realistic. That's what it is. A longshot. Sometimes they pay out, more often, they don't. No one should be expecting he'll crack the rotation in the next year or two. If he does, it's a bonus.
Remember Sam Bowie was picked ahead of Michael Jordan too.

Sometimes teams miss a player or for whatever reason can't sign him. Someone the other day mentioned how Brad Miller was in Knicks camp and did not make it (I honestly don't remember that but..).

How about John Starks and anthony mason? Two CBA guys that Riley plucked and got lucky with. It can happen. WE GOTTA BELIEVE it will now too. It could be the key to this team coming out of this 4 season funk.
Pharzeone
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3/3/2005  7:30 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Nalod:

We worried about his bird rights already?

If we can pay off Shandon 20 mil to NOT play here, we can find money for these guys to stay!

Do we have to call him "JACKIE"? That name does not strike fear in the hearts of men!
My only point was that the Bird rights are the only reason he's not as good as a 1st round pick. Sure we'll have money to keep him here. But it will require dipping into the MLE. If he were a 1st rd pick, we wouldn't have to ever use the MLE to re-sign him and we'd have the full MLE to spend on other players. It's not a huge issue. Who knows if he's good enough for us to even want to re-sign him. But *if* he is good enough to re-sign him, then it will make a difference. It's the same issue with Ariza.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/03/2005 16:43:24]

Good point, I don't want this kid or Ariza to pull a Gilbert Arenas type of move if they are quality. I get the impression that Ariza is grateful to Isiah, and likes his teammates but now teams are asking about him.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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3/3/2005  7:33 PM
Posted by VDesai:

Butler is more like a 2nd round pick in that he's not really a slam dunk or guaranteed anything, but it's possible that we can catch lightning in a bottle (as we did with Ariza). You generally don't get the chance to sign talented players who are 19 years old, you normally have to draft them...that is why he is like a pick.

Compared to some of these 1st round picks lately, I will definately say he could have been a 1st round pick.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bonn1997
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3/3/2005  7:37 PM
The Knicks have no reluctance to buy out contracts. They can also do a 2 for 1 trade (or 3 for 2) etc if they make the trade appealing enough. I'm not worried about roster spots.
Pharzeone
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3/3/2005  7:40 PM
Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:
Posted by bernard:

I'm hoping everyone's optimism on Butler is warranted, but I'm skeptical. To state the obvious: He didn't make the TWolves. They saw his body, his soft touch, etc. Even so, they apparently didn't think he was a worthwhile risk to keep around. Then, he played in the CBA and no one picked him up. We're not the only team who watched him play and saw his numbers.

Listen, I'm hoping he proves me wrong, and I don't mind us taking a flier on the kid, but let's be realistic. That's what it is. A longshot. Sometimes they pay out, more often, they don't. No one should be expecting he'll crack the rotation in the next year or two. If he does, it's a bonus.
Remember Sam Bowie was picked ahead of Michael Jordan too.

Sometimes teams miss a player or for whatever reason can't sign him. Someone the other day mentioned how Brad Miller was in Knicks camp and did not make it (I honestly don't remember that but..).

How about John Starks and anthony mason? Two CBA guys that Riley plucked and got lucky with. It can happen. WE GOTTA BELIEVE it will now too. It could be the key to this team coming out of this 4 season funk.

The draft is a joke, lottery picks are great if you are drafting a sure thing, but when there is no sure thing in draft years, give me the late 2st round picks, Great story about Rashard Lewis at the all-star game, naming all the 1st round picks Houston used before he selected by Seattle. If your GM has an eye for talent, and has a staff with the same eye, then you don't worry where you pick, just that you have picks.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bonn1997
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3/3/2005  10:59 PM
Posted by fishmike:

how are we going to use the MLE on other players?
Allan Houston
Anfernee Hardaway
Stephon Marbury
Tim Thomas
Maurice Taylor
Kurt Thomas
Jamal Crawford
Jerome Williams
Malik Rose
Mike Sweetney
Trevor Ariza
Jackie Butler
Thats 12.... we have 3 draft picks this year. Thats 15 (assuming they all make the roster).

Here's where the math of Isiah breaks down. We have 12 players (including our good as a #1 Butler). We have 2 first round picks that will have guarenteed contracts. We have the MLE, and we have expiring contracts which to be effective in a sign and trade mean you have to take a bad deal back.

The NBA roster limit is 15 with 12 active.

Answer me this:
Which 3 players are spending the enitre year on IR? Our draft picks? Ariza? Penny? Get real
Which of these players is ISiah going to waive and swallow their deal to make roster space?

This is another reason why the Taylor deal is TERRIBLE. Moochie and Vin were gone after enxt year.. this guy is clogging up a roster spot.

I must need some kool-aid or something.. I'm not getting Isiaconomics.
BTW, the 2 draft picks have guaranteed contracts only if you sign and keep them (as opposed to trading them). I doubt Isiah has ruled out the possibility of trading them.
diderotn
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3/4/2005  8:13 AM
Judging by the article I have read this morning, it appears to me that JB is a no nonsense type of dude. He may have won a couple of endorsments already from Isiah, Herb, and Agwire. If he is a physical fellow down low, forget about it. We won't have a need for Kurt next season...He is only 19 and has plenty of rooms to grow....Ariza/Sweet/and JB young/defensive minded/full of talents....

[Edited by - diderotn on 03/04/2005 09:18:19]
The true Knickabocker..........
misterearl
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3/4/2005  10:21 AM
"Man, we talkin' bout practice..."

>>This is another reason why the Taylor deal is TERRIBLE. Moochie and Vin were gone after enxt year.. this guy is clogging up a roster spot.

The Taylor deal is GREAT for one reason that most people overlook

Sweetney now has someone his exact size AND with more experience experience to bang on, and work against during the week. On the flip side, Mo Taylor must now work through BIG Mike to earn every minute he gets

Forget the the Salary Cap Silliness and Roster Spot Hand Wringing over a work in progress. Isiah knows what he's doing.

The point is to get better

Are the Knicks a better team?

Are three copnsecutive wins, heated arguments over defense, hard fouls in practice and competition among a more talented group a good thing or not?

once a knick always a knick
diderotn
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3/4/2005  10:25 AM
My man... You are alright with me......We have a lot of low basketball IQ type of fans on this forum....

Posted by misterearl:

"Man, we talkin' bout practice..."

>>This is another reason why the Taylor deal is TERRIBLE. Moochie and Vin were gone after enxt year.. this guy is clogging up a roster spot.

The Taylor deal is GREAT for one reason that most people overlook

Sweetney now has someone his exact size AND with more experience experience to bang on, and work against during the week. On the flip side, Mo Taylor must now work through BIG Mike to earn every minute he gets

Forget the the Salary Cap Silliness and Roster Spot Hand Wringing over a work in progress. Isiah knows what he's doing.

The point is to get better

Are the Knicks a better team?

Are three copnsecutive wins, heated arguments over defense, hard fouls in practice and competition among a more talented group a good thing or not?
The true Knickabocker..........
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  10:40 AM
Posted by misterearl:

"Man, we talkin' bout practice..."

>>This is another reason why the Taylor deal is TERRIBLE. Moochie and Vin were gone after enxt year.. this guy is clogging up a roster spot.

The Taylor deal is GREAT for one reason that most people overlook

Sweetney now has someone his exact size AND with more experience experience to bang on, and work against during the week. On the flip side, Mo Taylor must now work through BIG Mike to earn every minute he gets

Forget the the Salary Cap Silliness and Roster Spot Hand Wringing over a work in progress. Isiah knows what he's doing.

The point is to get better

Are the Knicks a better team?

Are three copnsecutive wins, heated arguments over defense, hard fouls in practice and competition among a more talented group a good thing or not?

Don't worry about Mo Taylor and clogging up a roster spot becuase if it becomes a problem and he can't be traded then he'll be bought out. Look at Shandon Anderson this year, he was bought out without the blink of an eye, Penny was very close to being bought out in December as well. Isiah is playing with Dolans money and could care less if he buys players out and he wont hesitate to do so.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fishmike
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3/4/2005  10:40 AM
its just funny, because because the same guys assume Isiah can just squeeze blood from a stone if he needs to.

The same guys are excited about the Mo Taylor trade, and also excited about Butler. Only problem is one almost guarentees the other wont work.

One one hand guys harp about expiring deals. Its not like last year when we had 3 smaller contracts to trade for 1 or 2 guys. We did have those but we sent them away for Mo Taylor. Now we would have to use a BIG deal to take back probably 2 players, but Isiah is going to ALSO build through the draft.

But dont worry about roster spaces.. Isiah can always buy someone out (even though it was Isiah who traded for them in the first place).

The math around here just doesnt add up, and no amount of kool-aid can make it add up.

The only 2 for trades can involve a max player.. so who are we getting this time? Maybe we should trade for Shaq.. send the Heat 3 PFs. Then we would have a center and open roster spots... hmmm, someone call Isiah with this
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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3/4/2005  10:45 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Don't worry about Mo Taylor and clogging up a roster spot becuase if it becomes a problem and he can't be traded then he'll be bought out. Look at Shandon Anderson this year, he was bought out without the blink of an eye, Penny was very close to being bought out in December as well. Isiah is playing with Dolans money and could care less if he buys players out and he wont hesitate to do so.
So lets recap. Isiah signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm. Then he trades for Mo Taylor who makes $9mm after Vin's deal expires, but he waives Mo Taylor.

Isiah just $15mm on NOTHING. Totally wasted. You dont think Cablevision will notice that? Thats not chump change. Shandon he could blame on LAyden. Who's he blaming that $15mm ? People around here live in a vacuum I swear. Wake up... there's no cross over MSGs door, this isnt a non-profit org.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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